KJV The Received Text

[jmwhalen]

Before responding to this post, I want to thank JMWhalen for standing up for the King James Bible. I know we are in the minority, but often times the minority is eventually proven right.

Man made errors are not plain to everyone. I don't believe there are errors in my 1611 Edition King James Bible. I have complete confidence in every jot and every tittle in it.

As for the word Easter, in place of passover, I don't believe that is a mistake. I believe the translators knew what they were doing, and that Easter is the word God wanted in the text for the English speaking world. The Greek word was pascha, and in my Greek dictionary it gives the following definitions:

the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):-Easter, Passover.

The example Adimus gave was a lie. I have a re-print of a 1611 Edition King James Bible, and it doesn't use the name Judas in place of Jesus. This is not a newer Authorized edition, but it is a re-print of a 1611 Bible. There are no mistakes, period.

There is no doubt that the KJV translators did the best they could at the time. However, it is a translation, not revelation and the science and art of translation have improved considerably since 1611. It is foolish and stupid to suppose that there is no refinement to be had in the 400+ years since KJV was produced by a committee of fallible men.

There is no need for "refinement" on something perfect. In addition, those translators who came up with the various new translations did so from manuscripts that have been found in various caves, and I would argue, those manuscripts are not reliable. To me, it is foolish and stupid to think that kind of an argument would be the least bit persuasive to anyone.

He who asserts must prove. In this case, the burden of proof is on those who insist the KJV is perfect. Go ahead, prove it.

I don't have to prove a thing to you or anyone else. Here is another statement I believe. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is at the right hand of God the Father in heaven. I have asserted that, yet I cannot prove it. Does that make what I said a false claim?

Then quit pronouncing God's judgement on your brethren unless and until you have something verifiable and solid to back it with. To date, all of the arguments you've given for KJV-only indicate you've raised a personal preference to the level of doctrine. In other words, you've gotten your own will confused with God's and by pronouncing judgement on those who disagree, you're doing your own will in God's name. Knock it off, already.

__________

Rufus of Cyrene confuses tolerance for people, rationality, with tolerance for ideas. "All mushrooms" are not good, just as all other "religions" are not "good"-they are corrupt. And I will call them corrupt, call "a spade a spade.". If that is being "intolerant, mean-spirited", and, of course, "the Trifecta", "un-Christian", so be it-call me "Mr. Intolerant."

People are watching too many talk shows, being spoon-fed/brain washed into accepting this "evolutionary", "enlightening" idea of "tolerance", instead of understanding the biblical principle of intolerance, by believing the Book, instead of correcting it.

Boy, the Lord Jesus Christ was so intolerant, so "judgmental"! And what was Paul thinking? Boy, He sure was "intolerant" in judging and name calling, was he not?:

"Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?"Acts 23:3

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[jmwhalen]

The KJV is a human translation like all translations.

Since 1611, there has been a lot more information discovered to work with that help us translate the Bible into modern vernacular. The KJV is outdated.

If you go to the bush in Africa, or to any other country where they do not speak or read English (let alone 17th century English), the gospel is the power of God, not any certain translation of the Bible. Those people will never read a KJV. No one before 1611 ever read the KJV either and God had raised up many prophets and apostles who did fine without it.

This KJV only teaching is demonic.

It puffs up.

It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood.

It makes the Bible out to be an extrememly "religious" book.

It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life.

It dishonestly ignores the weaknesses and errors of the KJV. Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators.

_________

"puffs up"

Despite the "Only-ism" of Christianity, the exclusiveness of Christianity, which, by the law of non-contradiction, makes all other "religions" false/corrupt(which can/must be applied to the "which 'the' Bible issue), one God, one Saviour, one Lamb, and thus "one way" into the presence of God the Father, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father.......and on and on(one city, new Jerusalem, one land, Israel...).

And of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is one man from the human race(Gen. 3:15), from one certain section of the human race(Shem-Gen. 9:26), from one nation of that section(Hebrew-Gen. 12:1-3), from one tribe of that Hebrew nation(Judah-Gen. 49:10), from one family of that tribe(David-2 Sam. 7:16), from one member of that family(Mary-Is. 7:14), and from one village belonging to that family member(Bethlehem Ephratah-Micah 5:2).

You Christians! Why are you so "puffed up"?

"puffs up" I heard that recently by Oprah Winfrey(and all other "religions")-"Are you saying Jesus is the only way to God? That's impossible."(paraphrased). And Christians wonder why, when "witnessing"(loosely used here) to Muslims, Jews,.....why they are so ineffective, why they are laughed at, when they attempt to defend the ONE way to a Holy LORD God, the exclusiveness of Christionaity, when they cannot even defend the veracity, the infalliblity of the Book that reveals the truth of EXCLUSIVENESS? Credibilty? The Holy Bible has "weaknesses and errors." See my previous post on credibility.

One book?

Deut. 31:26 "this book of the law"

Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law"

Joshua 24:26: "And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God"

Nehemiah 8:1 "to bring the book of the law of Moses"

2 Kings 22:8: "I have found the book of the law"

1 Sam. 10:25 "and wrote it in a book"

Is. 30:8: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book"

Jer. 30:2: "Take the a role of a book, and write therein all the words"

Thus, God communicated with men by the supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit having God's communication to man being written down. From the beginning this collection was regarded simply as one book, called "the book of the LORD"(Is. 34:16):

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

You either believe the LORD God made good on His promise tp preserve His inspired Book, or you do not-it is that simple. I do, because I "take God at His word", by faith. I did "seek", and found it . And what do others have, and have given us, "Books", 200+ "versions" at last count, all of them, by their own admission, riddled with"weaknesses and errors", put out by "bible agnostics", all allegedly trying to "help God out", since He was so incompetent that He just couldn't "get it right" over the years, . That is a "god" of mysticism, a "god" of one's own mind(Judges 21:25), but it is certainly not the LORD God as testified to/described in "the Book."

I have His inspired, preserved, infallible BOOK in English as He promised. If I do not, then my faith is in vain-AND IT IS NOT. When I meet the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, I "may" be criticized for believing His word that He preserved his word without error. I accept that. If you are wrong, consider the consequences of what you are saying, and what you are telling other believers.

"It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life. "

Gee, I suppose the Book circulating at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was penned, and yes, preserved(look up that biblical promise and principle) over hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the Lord Jesus Christ, was just a "a dated book that is irrelevant for real life." The Lord Jesus Christ never referred to the Book this way, never talked that way('outdated"), never instructed His followers to accept this mindset. And guess who did talk this way, who were the bible agnostics of His time, for whom He had scathing words? The Pharisees. And, so Genesis 3:1 is re-enacted/comes full circle to this day, and Eccl. 1:9 is proven true.

"Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators."

Who is a liar? I am on record as testifying to the purity of the word of God. And so are you:

"weaknesses and errors"

demonic

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD...." Isaiah 1:18

Now, what is more "reasonable"?:

"There is no perfect Bible-all of them have errors....no English translation is perfect or inerrant..." , or

The Holy Bible is without error-it is perfect. This is scripture's testimony., its "witness":

What is "demonic"?

"weakness and errors" , or

"How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?" Job 6:25

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him." 2 Samuel 22:31

"And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is ! truth." 1 Kings 17:24

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6

"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." Psalms 18:30

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." Psalms 19:7

"For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth." Psalms 33:4

"Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." Psalms 119:140

"And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments." Psalms 119:43

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalms 119:160

"Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?" Proverbs 22:20,21

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." Proverbs 30:5

"...the scripture of truth...." Daniel 10:21

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17

"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4:2

"By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,..." 2 Corinthians 6:7

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..." Ephesians 1:13

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

"...the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1:18

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood."

Do not confuse your lack of abilty to understand the Holy Bible, given by objective words, with error on the part of the Holy Spirit in the objective words themselves He has given by inspiration. If you do not understand it, study, meditate, pray,.... don't change/discard the objective word of truth because you do not understand it It is you that needs changing, not the objective words of the BOOK. The Holy Bible is to correct you, instruct you, and not vica versa. You are to submit to the BOOK, and not submit it, and its approval, to your fallible "weaknesses and errors" in correction.

"...Who is on the LORD's side?...." Exodus 32:26

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Scripture reference for God's promise of His book in English, please. Never mind that English hadn't developed in the first century - I'm sure there is an Old Testament prophet you can twist out of context, if you search long enough.

________

1. Do you" believe grass exists"? See my previous posts.

2. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for God's promise of His book in any language, whether it be Hebrew, Greek, Chaldean.="HEBREW ONLY-ISM"/"GREEK ONLY-ISM"/(fill in the blank of any language) ONLY-ISM"

3. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for "proof" that there are to be only (gee, there is that "only" word again!)66 books in the Book. PROVE "66 books ONLY-ISM" from scripture.

4. Scriptural reference, "proof", chapter and verse, that states "only the originals are inspired"="ORIGINALS ONLY-ISM"

Tick, tick, tick....the meltdown of bible agnostics/correctors(as opposed to Bible believers)

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

PS: Perhaps you should start quoting scripture in your "argument"/defense-it is noticeably lacking. Oh, I forgot, you would have to quote from a source that has "weaknesses and errors." Now I understand.

"My bad"! Is that an "outdated" phrase? Is that "updated" for you?

[hillsong_girl]

I like the ESV

KJV is not the only correct or acceptable translation. KJV is nice, though.

[jmwhalen]

The KJV is a human translation like all translations.

Since 1611, there has been a lot more information discovered to work with that help us translate the Bible into modern vernacular. The KJV is outdated.

If you go to the bush in Africa, or to any other country where they do not speak or read English (let alone 17th century English), the gospel is the power of God, not any certain translation of the Bible. Those people will never read a KJV. No one before 1611 ever read the KJV either and God had raised up many prophets and apostles who did fine without it.

This KJV only teaching is demonic.

It puffs up.

It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood.

It makes the Bible out to be an extrememly "religious" book.

It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life.

It dishonestly ignores the weaknesses and errors of the KJV. Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators.

_________

"puffs up"

Despite the "Only-ism" of Christianity, the exclusiveness of Christianity, which, by the law of non-contradiction, makes all other "religions" false/corrupt(which can/must be applied to the "which 'the' Bible issue), one God, one Saviour, one Lamb, and thus "one way" into the presence of God the Father, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father.......and on and on(one city, new Jerusalem, one land, Israel...).

And of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is one man from the human race(Gen. 3:15), from one certain section of the human race(Shem-Gen. 9:26), from one nation of that section(Hebrew-Gen. 12:1-3), from one tribe of that Hebrew nation(Judah-Gen. 49:10), from one family of that tribe(David-2 Sam. 7:16), from one member of that family(Mary-Is. 7:14), and from one village belonging to that family member(Bethlehem Ephratah-Micah 5:2).

You Christians! Why are you so "puffed up"?

"puffs up" I heard that recently by Oprah Winfrey(and all other "religions")-"Are you saying Jesus is the only way to God? That's impossible."(paraphrased). And Christians wonder why, when "witnessing"(loosely used here) to Muslims, Jews,.....why they are so ineffective, why they are laughed at, when they attempt to defend the ONE way to a Holy LORD God, the exclusiveness of Christionaity, when they cannot even defend the veracity, the infalliblity of the Book that reveals the truth of EXCLUSIVENESS? Credibilty? The Holy Bible has "weaknesses and errors." See my previous post on credibility.

One book?

Deut. 31:26 "this book of the law"

Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law"

Joshua 24:26: "And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God"

Nehemiah 8:1 "to bring the book of the law of Moses"

2 Kings 22:8: "I have found the book of the law"

1 Sam. 10:25 "and wrote it in a book"

Is. 30:8: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book"

Jer. 30:2: "Take the a role of a book, and write therein all the words"

Thus, God communicated with men by the supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit having God's communication to man being written down. From the beginning this collection was regarded simply as one book, called "the book of the LORD"(Is. 34:16):

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

You either believe the LORD God made good on His promise tp preserve His inspired Book, or you do not-it is that simple. I do, because I "take God at His word", by faith. I did "seek", and found it . And what do others have, and have given us, "Books", 200+ "versions" at last count, all of them, by their own admission, riddled with"weaknesses and errors", put out by "bible agnostics", all allegedly trying to "help God out", since He was so incompetent that He just couldn't "get it right" over the years, . That is a "god" of mysticism, a "god" of one's own mind(Judges 21:25), but it is certainly not the LORD God as testified to/described in "the Book."

I have His inspired, preserved, infallible BOOK in English as He promised. If I do not, then my faith is in vain-AND IT IS NOT. When I meet the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, I "may" be criticized for believing His word that He preserved his word without error. I accept that. If you are wrong, consider the consequences of what you are saying, and what you are telling other believers.

"It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life. "

Gee, I suppose the Book circulating at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was penned, and yes, preserved(look up that biblical promise and principle) over hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the Lord Jesus Christ, was just a "a dated book that is irrelevant for real life." The Lord Jesus Christ never referred to the Book this way, never talked that way('outdated"), never instructed His followers to accept this mindset. And guess who did talk this way, who were the bible agnostics of His time, for whom He had scathing words? The Pharisees. And, so Genesis 3:1 is re-enacted/comes full circle to this day, and Eccl. 1:9 is proven true.

"Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators."

Who is a liar? I am on record as testifying to the purity of the word of God. And so are you:

"weaknesses and errors"

demonic

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD...." Isaiah 1:18

Now, what is more "reasonable"?:

"There is no perfect Bible-all of them have errors....no English translation is perfect or inerrant..." , or

The Holy Bible is without error-it is perfect. This is scripture's testimony., its "witness":

What is "demonic"?

"weakness and errors" , or

"How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?" Job 6:25

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him." 2 Samuel 22:31

"And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is ! truth." 1 Kings 17:24

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6

"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." Psalms 18:30

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." Psalms 19:7

"For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth." Psalms 33:4

"Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." Psalms 119:140

"And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments." Psalms 119:43

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalms 119:160

"Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?" Proverbs 22:20,21

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." Proverbs 30:5

"...the scripture of truth...." Daniel 10:21

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17

"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4:2

"By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,..." 2 Corinthians 6:7

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..." Ephesians 1:13

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

"...the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1:18

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood."

Do not confuse your lack of abilty to understand the Holy Bible, given by objective words, with error on the part of the Holy Spirit in the objective words themselves He has given by inspiration. If you do not understand it, study, meditate, pray,.... don't change/discard the objective word of truth because you do not understand it It is you that needs changing, not the objective words of the BOOK. The Holy Bible is to correct you, instruct you, and not vica versa. You are to submit to the BOOK, and not submit it, and its approval, to your fallible "weaknesses and errors" in correction.

"...Who is on the LORD's side?...." Exodus 32:26

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Scripture reference for God's promise of His book in English, please. Never mind that English hadn't developed in the first century - I'm sure there is an Old Testament prophet you can twist out of context, if you search long enough.

________

1. Do you" believe grass exists"? See my previous posts.

2. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for God's promise of His book in any language, whether it be Hebrew, Greek, Chaldean.="HEBREW ONLY-ISM"/"GREEK ONLY-ISM"/(fill in the blank of any language) ONLY-ISM"

3. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for "proof" that there are to be only (gee, there is that "only" word again!)66 books in the Book. PROVE "66 books ONLY-ISM" from scripture.

4. Scriptural reference, "proof", chapter and verse, that states "only the originals are inspired"="ORIGINALS ONLY-ISM"

Tick, tick, tick....the meltdown of bible agnostics/correctors(as opposed to Bible believers)

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

PS: Perhaps you should start quoting scripture in your "argument"/defense-it is noticeably lacking. Oh, I forgot, you would have to quote fron a source that has "weakneses and errors." Now I understand.

"My bad"! Is that an "outdated" phrase? Is that "updated" for you?

I'm not the one that set up a straw-man argument. You set up the KJV as being perfect and then dare the rest of Christianity to prove you wrong. The burden of proof is on you. It doesn't take scripture to refute a straw-man argument, just sound reasoning and the ability to think, both of which are lacking in your "proof" thus far. I dare suggest further that you are unable to prove that the KJV is perfect and all the blithering histrionics of which you seemingly are capable will not change that fact. (Here is where you play the 'we're so persecuted' card).

What is your evidence that the KJV is the only translation in English of which God approves? Answer, if you can. By the way, you still owe me a scripture reference. Start with that.

_____

Your "argument is wrong, it has "weaknesses and errors."

Your "argument", not mine:"He who asserts must prove. In this case, the burden of proof is on those who insist the KJV is perfect. Go ahead, prove it."

You don't even know your own argument.

1. I did not assert it. The word of God testifies that it has no errors-it asserts. . If it has errors, then it is not the word of God-period. And I showed you the scriptures. Prove that the word of God, from scripture, can have "weaknesses and errors", and still be considered the word of God. The burden of proof is on you, the onus is on you, unless you believe that "grass does not exist", i.e., the word of God does not exist today. And this is what I suspect. If you cannot, then go on record, Scarecrow, and admit that the word of God does not exist today. Go ahead.

Prove that "the originals" were perfect. Go ahead. If not, then go on record and state that the word of God is not now perfect, nor ever was.

"What is your evidence that the KJV is the only translation in English of which God approves?"

Do you believe the word of God exists?="that grass exists"? If not, see my answer in previous posts, specifically Luke 16:31. If it does exist, name it

And will you prove, adhere to the same "bar of evidence" that you demand of us, what is your evidence that "the originals", "The Hebrew", "the Greek", "the fill in the blank" version , or whatever "word of God" you identify above is the only translation of which God approves? The burden of proof is on you to prove that the word of God can have errors, and be considered the word of God-chapter and verse.

You won't adhere to this same bar of evidence, will you Scarecrow? "...Yea, hath God said...."(Gen. 3:1)

"just sound reasoning and the ability to think, both of which are lacking in your "proof" thus far."

I quote scripture, and you provide your "opinion" per Judges 21:25. "Sound reasoning and a

bility to think"? Hmmmmm where did I read that? Ah, yes! That was what that the subtil serpent asked Eve to do in Genesis 3. Eccl. 1:9. The LORD God calls that "the wisdom of the world", and "foolishness-"-"ye shall be as gods"(Gen. 3:5). Quote scripture for your evidence, Scarecrow.

You won't submit to the word of God-you submit it to your "correction", your "sound reasoning and the ability to think", don't you?(rhetorical question) No one believes and submits to a Bible they correct, like yourself, for correcting it presupposes an authority over it. And, inevitably, when they come across a verse that they do not "prefer" or "like", because it does not suit their doctrine, they submit it to their correction, because, it must have "weaknesses and errors", and they rush to the nearest book store and buy the latest. "hot off the press" "New and Improved" "version"="Try it-you will like it"-Genesis 3, that does fit their doctrine.. And they are the final authority. The Holy Bible they will not submit to-they correct it, and refuse its correction. And the beat goes on........................

"Does grass exist", Scarecrow? Yes or No-simple

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[Botz]

I can't help wondering why this subject regarding the infallibility of the 1611 King James Bible at times brings out the harsher side of many people's nature...just what is it about the claims being made and refuted, that strays into the realms of tit for tat revengeful, hurtful commentary and name calling. It is a poor witness to each other, let alone the world.

1 Peter 3:8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

Let us argue and contend strongly and passionately, but lets do so out of a heart that openly displays the Spirit of G-d that dwells in each of us.

I categorically do not believe in the idea of the 1611 KJV being preserved to perfection, but I will continue to try to understand where my brethren who claim such things are coming from, and at the same time continue to weigh up other points that such controversy stirs up.

I have many many questions and notions... but it is not apt to add fuel to an already roaring fire.

[traveller]

I agree with Botz.

There is no reason to lose our reason. That you are passionate in what you believe is inspirational. Don't let it get in your flesh.

the thread stands the risk of closure. I'd rather not do that. Play nice.

[jmwhalen]

I like the ESV

KJV is not the only correct or acceptable translation. KJV is nice, though.

_

And I "like" smoking, and I "prefer" "Now"; I "like" not having to go to work, and "prefer" sleeping in.; and I like eating bowls and bowls of ice creme, and I "prefer" vanilla. The question is : What do you believe?

Why is that we tend to "choose" a "bible version" based on "what we like", what we "prefer", instead of is it true? This is not a "Bible Buffet" ,now is it? We don't choose medicines, affecting life and death issues many times, an issue of physical health, because we "like" it, or because we "prefer" it? Why does the "which 'the' bible issue", a matter of "spiritual life and death", relegated to "preference"? "Try it - You'll like it"! For example, did anyone consider: Do we "prefer" Christianity, because we "like" it, or because it is true?

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[jmwhalen]

I can't help wondering why this subject regarding the infallibility of the 1611 King James Bible at times brings out the harsher side of many people's nature...just what is it about the claims being made and refuted, that strays into the realms of tit for tat revengeful, hurtful commentary and name calling. It is a poor witness to each other, let alone the world.

1 Peter 3:8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

Let us argue and contend strongly and passionately, but lets do so out of a heart that openly displays the Spirit of G-d that dwells in each of us.

I categorically do not believe in the idea of the 1611 KJV being preserved to perfection, but I will continue to try to understand where my brethren who claim such things are coming from, and at the same time continue to weigh up other points that such controversy stirs up.

I have many many questions and notions... but it is not apt to add fuel to an already roaring fire.

__________

These are not my words:

"This KJV only teaching is demonic. Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators. -Rufus of Cyrene

Now, what is the implication here?

In Christ,

John M, Whalen

[jmwhalen]

The KJV is a human translation like all translations.

Since 1611, there has been a lot more information discovered to work with that help us translate the Bible into modern vernacular. The KJV is outdated.

If you go to the bush in Africa, or to any other country where they do not speak or read English (let alone 17th century English), the gospel is the power of God, not any certain translation of the Bible. Those people will never read a KJV. No one before 1611 ever read the KJV either and God had raised up many prophets and apostles who did fine without it.

This KJV only teaching is demonic.

It puffs up.

It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood.

It makes the Bible out to be an extrememly "religious" book.

It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life.

It dishonestly ignores the weaknesses and errors of the KJV. Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators.

_________

"puffs up"

Despite the "Only-ism" of Christianity, the exclusiveness of Christianity, which, by the law of non-contradiction, makes all other "religions" false/corrupt(which can/must be applied to the "which 'the' Bible issue), one God, one Saviour, one Lamb, and thus "one way" into the presence of God the Father, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father.......and on and on(one city, new Jerusalem, one land, Israel...).

And of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is one man from the human race(Gen. 3:15), from one certain section of the human race(Shem-Gen. 9:26), from one nation of that section(Hebrew-Gen. 12:1-3), from one tribe of that Hebrew nation(Judah-Gen. 49:10), from one family of that tribe(David-2 Sam. 7:16), from one member of that family(Mary-Is. 7:14), and from one village belonging to that family member(Bethlehem Ephratah-Micah 5:2).

You Christians! Why are you so "puffed up"?

"puffs up" I heard that recently by Oprah Winfrey(and all other "religions")-"Are you saying Jesus is the only way to God? That's impossible."(paraphrased). And Christians wonder why, when "witnessing"(loosely used here) to Muslims, Jews,.....why they are so ineffective, why they are laughed at, when they attempt to defend the ONE way to a Holy LORD God, the exclusiveness of Christionaity, when they cannot even defend the veracity, the infalliblity of the Book that reveals the truth of EXCLUSIVENESS? Credibilty? The Holy Bible has "weaknesses and errors." See my previous post on credibility.

One book?

Deut. 31:26 "this book of the law"

Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law"

Joshua 24:26: "And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God"

Nehemiah 8:1 "to bring the book of the law of Moses"

2 Kings 22:8: "I have found the book of the law"

1 Sam. 10:25 "and wrote it in a book"

Is. 30:8: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book"

Jer. 30:2: "Take the a role of a book, and write therein all the words"

Thus, God communicated with men by the supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit having God's communication to man being written down. From the beginning this collection was regarded simply as one book, called "the book of the LORD"(Is. 34:16):

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

You either believe the LORD God made good on His promise tp preserve His inspired Book, or you do not-it is that simple. I do, because I "take God at His word", by faith. I did "seek", and found it . And what do others have, and have given us, "Books", 200+ "versions" at last count, all of them, by their own admission, riddled with"weaknesses and errors", put out by "bible agnostics", all allegedly trying to "help God out", since He was so incompetent that He just couldn't "get it right" over the years, . That is a "god" of mysticism, a "god" of one's own mind(Judges 21:25), but it is certainly not the LORD God as testified to/described in "the Book."

I have His inspired, preserved, infallible BOOK in English as He promised. If I do not, then my faith is in vain-AND IT IS NOT. When I meet the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, I "may" be criticized for believing His word that He preserved his word without error. I accept that. If you are wrong, consider the consequences of what you are saying, and what you are telling other believers.

"It makes the Bible appear to be a dated book that is irrelevant for real life. "

Gee, I suppose the Book circulating at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was penned, and yes, preserved(look up that biblical promise and principle) over hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the Lord Jesus Christ, was just a "a dated book that is irrelevant for real life." The Lord Jesus Christ never referred to the Book this way, never talked that way('outdated"), never instructed His followers to accept this mindset. And guess who did talk this way, who were the bible agnostics of His time, for whom He had scathing words? The Pharisees. And, so Genesis 3:1 is re-enacted/comes full circle to this day, and Eccl. 1:9 is proven true.

"Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators."

Who is a liar? I am on record as testifying to the purity of the word of God. And so are you:

"weaknesses and errors"

demonic

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD...." Isaiah 1:18

Now, what is more "reasonable"?:

"There is no perfect Bible-all of them have errors....no English translation is perfect or inerrant..." , or

The Holy Bible is without error-it is perfect. This is scripture's testimony., its "witness":

What is "demonic"?

"weakness and errors" , or

"How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?" Job 6:25

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him." 2 Samuel 22:31

"And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is ! truth." 1 Kings 17:24

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6

"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." Psalms 18:30

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." Psalms 19:7

"For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth." Psalms 33:4

"Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." Psalms 119:140

"And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments." Psalms 119:43

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalms 119:160

"Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?" Proverbs 22:20,21

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." Proverbs 30:5

"...the scripture of truth...." Daniel 10:21

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17

"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4:2

"By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,..." 2 Corinthians 6:7

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..." Ephesians 1:13

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

"...the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1:18

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"It keeps the Bible from being more easily read and understood."

Do not confuse your lack of abilty to understand the Holy Bible, given by objective words, with error on the part of the Holy Spirit in the objective words themselves He has given by inspiration. If you do not understand it, study, meditate, pray,.... don't change/discard the objective word of truth because you do not understand it It is you that needs changing, not the objective words of the BOOK. The Holy Bible is to correct you, instruct you, and not vica versa. You are to submit to the BOOK, and not submit it, and its approval, to your fallible "weaknesses and errors" in correction.

"...Who is on the LORD's side?...." Exodus 32:26

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Scripture reference for God's promise of His book in English, please. Never mind that English hadn't developed in the first century - I'm sure there is an Old Testament prophet you can twist out of context, if you search long enough.

________

1. Do you" believe grass exists"? See my previous posts.

2. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for God's promise of His book in any language, whether it be Hebrew, Greek, Chaldean.="HEBREW ONLY-ISM"/"GREEK ONLY-ISM"/(fill in the blank of any language) ONLY-ISM"

3. Scripture reference, chapter and verse, for "proof" that there are to be only (gee, there is that "only" word again!)66 books in the Book. PROVE "66 books ONLY-ISM" from scripture.

4. Scriptural reference, "proof", chapter and verse, that states "only the originals are inspired"="ORIGINALS ONLY-ISM"

Tick, tick, tick....the meltdown of bible agnostics/correctors(as opposed to Bible believers)

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

PS: Perhaps you should start quoting scripture in your "argument"/defense-it is noticeably lacking. Oh, I forgot, you would have to quote fron a source that has "weakneses and errors." Now I understand.

"My bad"! Is that an "outdated" phrase? Is that "updated" for you?

I'm not the one that set up a straw-man argument. You set up the KJV as being perfect and then dare the rest of Christianity to prove you wrong. The burden of proof is on you. It doesn't take scripture to refute a straw-man argument, just sound reasoning and the ability to think, both of which are lacking in your "proof" thus far. I dare suggest further that you are unable to prove that the KJV is perfect and all the blithering histrionics of which you seemingly are capable will not change that fact. (Here is where you play the 'we're so persecuted' card).

What is your evidence that the KJV is the only translation in English of which God approves? Answer, if you can. By the way, you still owe me a scripture reference. Start with that.

_____

Your "argument is wrong, it has "weaknesses and errors."

Your "argument", not mine:"He who asserts must prove. In this case, the burden of proof is on those who insist the KJV is perfect. Go ahead, prove it."

You don't even know your own argument.

1. I did not assert it. The word of God testifies that it has no errors-it asserts. . If it has errors, then it is not the word of God-period. And I showed you the scriptures. Prove that the word of God, from scripture, can have "weaknesses and errors", and still be considered the word of God. The burden of proof is on you, the onus is on you, unless you believe that "grass does not exist", i.e., the word of God does not exist today. And this is what I suspect. If you cannot, then go on record, Scarecrow, and admit that the word of God does not exist today. Go ahead.

Prove that "the originals" were perfect. Go ahead. If not, then go on record and state that the word of God is not now perfect, nor ever was.

"What is your evidence that the KJV is the only translation in English of which God approves?"

Do you believe the word of God exists?="that grass exists"? If not, see my answer in previous posts, specifically Luke 16:31. If it does exist, name it

And will you prove, adhere to the same "bar of evidence" that you demand of us, what is your evidence that "the originals", "The Hebrew", "the Greek", "the fill in the blank" version , or whatever "word of God" you identify above is the only translation of which God approves? The burden of proof is on you to prove that the word of God can have errors, and be considered the word of God-chapter and verse.

You won't adhere to this same bar of evidence, will you Scarecrow? "...Yea, hath God said...."(Gen. 3:1)

"just sound reasoning and the ability to think, both of which are lacking in your "proof" thus far."

I quote scripture, and you provide your "opinion" per Judges 21:25. "Sound reasoning and a

bility to think"? Hmmmmm where did I read that? Ah, yes! That was what that the subtil serpent asked Eve to do in Genesis 3. Eccl. 1:9. The LORD God calls that "the wisdom of the world", and "foolishness-"-"ye shall be as gods"(Gen. 3:5). Quote scripture for your evidence, Scarecrow.

You won't submit to the word of God-you submit it to your "correction", your "sound reasoning and the ability to think", don't you?(rhetorical question) No one believes and submits to a Bible they correct, like yourself, for correcting it presupposes an authority over it. And, inevitably, when they come across a verse that they do not "prefer" or "like", because it does not suit their doctrine, they submit it to their correction, because, it must have "weaknesses and errors", and they rush to the nearest book store and buy the latest. "hot off the press" "New and Improved" "version"="Try it-you will like it"-Genesis 3, that does fit their doctrine.. And they are the final authority. The Holy Bible they will not submit to-they correct it, and refuse its correction. And the beat goes on........................

"Does grass exist", Scarecrow? Yes or No-simple

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

You still have not offered any evidence that the KJV, a translation into English of God's Word (which, by the way, I do believe to be inerrant; don't presume to tell me what I believe) made by fallible men, is perfect. You have instead chosen to vent your spleen. Where is your proof? Hint: "Because I say so" is not evidence. Either prove it conclusively or back down and apologize for being rude.

_________

1. One more time re. "You still have not offered any evidence that the KJV, a translation into English of God's Word ...... made by fallible men, is perfect."

Do you believe the word of God, which, by definition, is perfect, exists today, or existed at any time? Yes or No? If so, name it. "Do you believe in the existence of grass"? The last time:

The simple analogy is grass. If you do not believer grass exists, then I will never be able to convince you it is green. No matter how much evidence I lay before you, or refuting of other arguments, you don't believe grass exists, thus it cannot be green. For me to convince you that first the KJB is the Word of God is futile on my part because your premise won't accept it.

Again, if one does not accept this scriptural testimony, by faith, that the LORD God, as He promised, made good on this promise to preserved His inspired word, which, by definition, i.e., scripture's own testimony, is without error, then that is akin to rearranging the proverbial "deck chairs on the Titanic." That is, the simple analogy is grass. If you do not believe grass exists, then I will never be able to convince you it is green. No matter how much evidence I lay before you, or refuting of other arguments, you don't believe grass exists, thus it cannot be green. No amount of "arguing", no amount of "evidence", will convince anyone that the KJB is without error, if one holds to the premise that "it is impossible" for the LORD God to "see to it" that a translation be His inspired word. For me to convince anyone that the KJB is the inspired word of God is indeed, futile on my part because their premise won't accept it-"grass does not exist"=the word of God without error today does not exist", therefore"grass is not green"="the KJB is not the word of God." See Luke 16:31

2. If you accept 1, the you must adhere to the same bar of evidence you demand of us. Provide evidence, chapter and verse, from any source authority, that states that "the originals" were perfect. Chapter and verse.

3. ".....(which, by the way, I do believe to be inerrant; don't presume to tell me what I believe)"

OK. I won't "presume to tell you what you believe"-I will quote your words-"innerant"?:

"There is no doubt that the KJV translators did the best they could at the time. However, it is a translation, not revelation and the science and art of translation have improved considerably since 1611.It is foolish and stupid to suppose that there is no refinement to be had in the 400+ years since KJV was produced by a committee of fallible men. Te KJV is a human translation like all translations.....it dishonestly ignores the weaknesses and errors of the KJV. He who asserts must prove. In this case, the burden of proof is on those who insist the KJV is perfect. Go ahead, prove it"

Your own words say the KJB is not inerrant. You have yet to identify this mystical, illusive "word of God" that is "inerrant." Where is it? Did God lose it? Please name it, identify it.

"fallible men"

Of course, it does not dawn on bible correctors that even the "originals" were a work of "fallible" men, as are the 5000+ manuscripts we have, and the 50 or so "the Greek" texts(sarcasm). So much for your "fallible men" "argument."

"Either prove it conclusively or back down and apologize for being rude."

See 1. And also agree that you will provide the same evidence for "whichever word of God" you consider to be "inerrant."

And apologize for you "being rude":

"This KJV only teaching is demonic. Its leaders are proven to be liars, plagerizers, and manipulators. -Rufus of Cyrene

" You have instead chosen to vent your spleen."

Could you "tranlate" that for me?

" Where is your proof?"

See preceding. Where is your proof that the word of God has "weaknesses and errors"-chapter and verse. Where is your proof that the "originals" are inerrant?

Hint: "Because I say so" is not evidence.

The word of God has no errors, if it is to be considered the word of God. I showed you scripture, chapter and verse. What have you given us? "Because Rufus says so", the word of God has "errors", "weaknesses", but has yet to identify this "word of God" he says is inerrant. Tell all of us Rufus, how you can make the assessment that any "version", any "translation", has "weaknesses/errors", KJB or otherwise, if you do not have the inerrant standard to which to compare it? Name that inerrant standard, Rufus. TILT. we will all wait(or at least me) for the answer to this.

In Christ,

JW

[jmwhalen]

What was God thinking? God didn't really use "fallible" men like Abraham, a liar, Noah, a drunkard (Genesis 9:21), Moses, a murderer( Exodus 2:12), and who did not believe God( Numbers 20:12), David , a murderer, adulterer, and liar, Solomon, a murderer in heart ( 1 Kings 11:40), an idolator and apostate (1 Kings 11:4), Peter, who denied the Lord Jesus Christ( Mark 14:71), and was an hypocrite( Galatians 2:11-13), Paul , a murderer(Acts), blasphemer(1 Tim. 1:13 ), and later one who was to offer a blood sacrifice after the Lord Jesus Christ had died and risen( Acts 21:26), and John ,who twice worshipped an angel and was told not to( Revelation 19:10; 22:8), did he?. No, God didn't really use these are the type of people o give us His words "in the originals", did He? Nah, He used "scholars", "experts"right? He wouldn't use "unlearned and ignorant men"(Acts 4:13), would he?

In Christ and with Christ,

JW