If God's will is to save all His people

[kross]

Some quotes from JESUS;

Matthew 11:27(b)

[larryt]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 24 2008, 08:13 AM)

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

Never?

2Th 2:13

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 24 2008, 08:13 AM)

The Bible NEVER says anyone was chosen for salvation That is not a biblical or scriptural statement despite your twisting and perverting the 100+ scriptures you have to hijack in order to support such a belief.

Never?

2Th 2:13

[Guest shiloh357]

Some quotes from JESUS;

Matthew 11:27(b)

[kross]

So, all these passages that say "GOD chooses" do not mean "GOD chooses" and there are no passages that state that we choose in the clear wording of all of these that say that GOD chooses.

Interesting that it says GOD chooses the foolish, weak, and lowly, right after it says that we should look at those HE called, not many wise are called, not many rich... That would mean that they are not called of GOD and thus not in the family.

"Many are called, few are chosen"

I wish I had knowledge of how to take those little quotes out and respond to them. But, it will not matter what I say or how many scriptures teach this truth. Suffice to say, I will believe what is clearly written instead of what has to be rewritten in order to make it mean the opposite.

For when the time is come, I will not boast in my flesh or in my understanding or in my choosing of GOD. My flesh will not glory in anything I have done for I know that my salvation was not of my doing. I also know the GOD will not share the glory with any man for what HE has done.

If you chose JESUS, good for you. I did not choose this life, this life chose me. I am what I am by the grace of GOD who could have left me in my sins, but HE called me out of the world into HIS marvelous light and I serve HIM. This in accordance with HIS will for HIS purposes that are too wonderful for me to comprehend.

I came not of my own free will and I do not want any of my will to be set free. For I know that the will of any man is to go against the will of GOD if it were not that GOD bends the will of HIS chosen to believe and follow. I am a captive slave of the LORD. HE bought me and owns me and what HE does with my life is up to HIM. I pray everyday that GOD not allow me to make my own decissions, because I know that HE is in control and knows best.

[larryt]

So, all these passages that say "GOD chooses" do not mean "GOD chooses" and there are no passages that state that we choose in the clear wording of all of these that say that GOD chooses.

Interesting that it says GOD chooses the foolish, weak, and lowly, right after it says that we should look at those HE called, not many wise are called, not many rich... That would mean that they are not called of GOD and thus not in the family.

"Many are called, few are chosen"

I wish I had knowledge of how to take those little quotes out and respond to them. But, it will not matter what I say or how many scriptures teach this truth. Suffice to say, I will believe what is clearly written instead of what has to be rewritten in order to make it mean the opposite.

For when the time is come, I will not boast in my flesh or in my understanding or in my choosing of GOD. My flesh will not glory in anything I have done for I know that my salvation was not of my doing. I also know the GOD will not share the glory with any man for what HE has done.

If you chose JESUS, good for you. I did not choose this life, this life chose me. I am what I am by the grace of GOD who could have left me in my sins, but HE called me out of the world into HIS marvelous light and I serve HIM. This in accordance with HIS will for HIS purposes that are too wonderful for me to comprehend.

I came not of my own free will and I do not want any of my will to be set free. For I know that the will of any man is to go against the will of GOD if it were not that GOD bends the will of HIS chosen to believe and follow. I am a captive slave of the LORD. HE bought me and owns me and what HE does with my life is up to HIM. I pray everyday that GOD not allow me to make my own decissions, because I know that HE is in control and knows best.

Amen and let Him give us the desires of our heart.

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

So, all these passages that say "GOD chooses" do not mean "GOD chooses" and there are no passages that state that we choose in the clear wording of all of these that say that GOD chooses.

No I did not say those verses say God doesn't choose. It is WHAT he chooses that is the issue. God chooses to predestine what Christians will be AFTER they have been saved. He does not choose who will or will not be saved.

Suffice to say, I will believe what is clearly written instead of what has to be rewritten in order to make it mean the opposite.

With all due respect, you are trying to read an biblical version of predestination into those scriptures you posted. Anyone can take several verses, string them together like lights on a Christmas tree and make them say whatever they want them to say. That is called "prooftexting," and it is a highly unreliable method of study. I, on the other hand, took each one of those scriptures YOU cited and placed them back into their natural context in order to understand them according to the intent of the author. The weakness of your position is seen in the amount prooftexting you have to perform in order to advance your position.

For when the time is come, I will not boast in my flesh or in my understanding or in my choosing of GOD.

Accepting Christ is not equivalent to "choosing God." I never said anything about choosing God. No one "chooses God" of their own accord, so I don't know where you get that.

If you chose JESUS, good for you. I did not choose this life, this life chose me.

I did not say I chose Jesus. I said I accepted the message of the gospel when it was presented to me. I said "yes" to the gospel and accepted Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit called me and drew me and I obeyed and was saved. That is not even close to "choosing Jesus."

Part of your problem is that you are unable to correctly frame my position. You are responding to what you think I am saying and not what I actually said.

I came not of my own free will and I do not want any of my will to be set free.

No one comes to God of their own free will. They come when they are drawn by the Holy Spirit. Free will comes not in the choosing or not choosing, but in accepting or rejecting the message, of saying yes to the Holy Spirit's call.

For I know that the will of any man is to go against the will of GOD if it were not that GOD bends the will of HIS chosen to believe and follow.

The Bible does not say that God makes it the will of a select few to believe. That would also mean that God hardens the hearts of the wicked so that they cannot believe if they do hear the gospel, and THAT is simply an unbiblical and unChristian theological position to hold to.

[stacey c]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

You bring up a good point. Judging someone for what you have already prechosen them to be seems rather pointless and cruel, in that God predetermines who will be disallowed from receiving Christ and then they are judged for a sin they were basically forced to commit.

It also brings up the issue of preaching. If God has already saved from antiquity those prechosen to be saved, then preaching the gospel is another pointless act. There would be no need to plead and intercede for sinners if there is no hope of them being allowed to receive the gospel. God would not send out missionaries to convert those who were already saved from before the foundation of earth. If they are already saved from before creation, then no amount of preaching or the lack thereof, can have any possible effect on the outcome.

There is no justice in God judging those who rebel in the last days if they had no choice but to commit such rebellion and even more, to do so because God allegedly foreordained that they should hopelessly lost in this rebellion with no hope of salvation.In this view, God is judging people for a sin of rebellion that they had no choice to commit and additionally were denied by God, the oppotunity and ability to repent of. Nothing could be further from the truth and further from the nature and true character of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

[stacey c]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

You bring up a good point. Judging someone for what you have already prechosen them to be seems rather pointless and cruel, in that God predetermines who will be disallowed from receiving Christ and then they are judged for a sin they were basically forced to commit.

It also brings up the issue of preaching. If God has already saved from antiquity those prechosen to be saved, then preaching the gospel is another pointless act. There would be no need to plead and intercede for sinners if there is no hope of them being allowed to receive the gospel. God would not send out missionaries to convert those who were already saved from before the foundation of earth. If they are already saved from before creation, then no amount of preaching or the lack thereof, can have any possible effect on the outcome.

There is no justice in God judging those who rebel in the last days if they had no choice but to commit such rebellion and even more, to do so because God allegedly foreordained that they should hopelessly lost in this rebellion with no hope of salvation.In this view, God is judging people for a sin of rebellion that they had no choice to commit and additionally were denied by God, the oppotunity and ability to repent of. Nothing could be further from the truth and further from the nature and true character of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

Exactly Shilo, what is the point of spreading the Gosple? Why do we need to witness or give our testimony? The Lord tells us we are the light of the world and the salt of the earth. Why? What would be the point of being the light of the world if those in the world don't even see it. So many things wouldn't add up if those in the world had no hope of salvation at all. Why would I need to be a good witness for Christ if it was a fruitless endevor?