Yonatan

One Light > I most certainly accept your apology and I ask you to accept mine for being 'quick to judge' and to react oversensitively without thinking more deeply where you were coming from. As far as legalism in the Church goes, it has - as we both know - been a problem from the time Paul was writing his epostles about the very same thing we are talking about 2,000 years later. There is absolutely no question in my mind that we are saved by faith alone and not works. I must also be truthful and say that I have been a practising born-again Christians for over 30 years and, IN THE BEGINNING, I went through many years - much pain and many lessons from God before I finally God to where Saint Paul got to in a flash on the road to Damascus. I was a real, sanctimonious pain in the b***t Christian for years before I got free from trying to save myself by works. I also believe that there are millions of my fellow Christians in the same stage as I was, and millions of others who have one foot in Heaven already. In short, we are all at different stages of consciousness, according to God's grace and mercy, in our understanding of Christ. We ALL therefore - especially me (just like Saint Paul said when he said he was the worst of all sinners) - make a sober but hopeful discernments about our own situations and NEVER point fingers at other Christians. We are all where we are by God's grace alone. Personally, I thank God for that! It means we can all be friends and tolerant of each other - tolerant, but also guiding and helpful to whom we can be, and prepared to listen to others, too. Well, that's a sort of 'ideal world' view I know; but it is better than sitting, like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress in the dungeon of despair! My brother in Christ (or sister?) - I salute you. Yonatan

No, that is not the case, but it did concern me that the thread may be hi-jacked into a discussion of the many types of legalism. Accept my apology for making such a harsh statement without explanation.

"......this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity...." Well, are you saying that my contribution should 'strictly speaking' not be posted here? If so, please feel free to delete it. Yonatan

I won't argue your point, but this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity, where the term legalism means salvation through works, as one doing enough for God in order to earn salvation instead of accepting it through the salvation Jesus offers. Legalism does not cause Lukewarmness, for those who do not accept the free gift from God, but try to earn their way into heaven, are not even lukewarm, but ice cold. I say again, Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. The works here is legalism.

I won't argue your point, but this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity, where the term legalism means salvation through works, as one doing enough for God in order to earn salvation instead of accepting it through the salvation Jesus offers. Legalism does not cause Lukewarmness, for those who do not accept the free gift from God, but try to earn their way into heaven, are not even lukewarm, but ice cold. I say again, Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. The works here is legalism.

'Legalism' is an attitude that extends way beyond the confines of the Church. It can be bred into one by culture, education and upbringing. I submit here a 'script' called A Christmas Feast which I believe illustrates, hopefully in an enlightening way, some of the pitfalls of 'by the book' attitudes coming not only from differnt Christian denominations, but also from other faiths. The point I am tring to make is that 'legalism' per se, is not only a Christian problem, it is problem that human nature demonstrates it is capable of in all sorts of circumstances. That may be where Christians, including myself, ought to start, when looking for solutions to this 'behavioral/cultural/social' disorder. A Christmas Feast Foreword This story is about a journalist who decides to throw a Christmas party at the office. Everyone working for the magazine is invited, whatever faith or persuasion. He tells the invited employees they will be having a traditional Christmas dinner given by management. They will have an opportunity to talk about what they think of it all, and the discussion will be recorded. Everyone agrees. This is a transcription of the recording in print. ------------------------------------------------------ Jonathan Mr. Tenzing Norgay, you are a Buddhist - a Tibetan exile. How do you feel about the Christmas season? Tenzing Is very good. Yes. There are many colors and presents. It is a festival - it is your tradition. Festivals are good things. In Tibet, we have many, many festivals. Even now, in exile, we try keep our culture alive through festivals. Jonathan Do you know what Christians celebrate at Christmas? Tenzing You see. I have studied. I know Christian man believe in Jesus coming from God. But I observe much commerce this day. I think maybe day is special only for food and gifts. This is good! Food and gifts. But I think sometimes Christian man forget why is Christmas. He not know Jesus birthday..(laughs) Jonathan Thank you Mr. Norgay. - Mr. Hamilton, you look as if you are going to burst! What do you think about Christmas? Mr. Hamilton Like every other religious celebration in the whole world, it is based on fanciful stories. As an atheist, I believe God does not exist. Christmas time celebrates a story made by mans imagination, about the son of God being born in our world. I do not believe it. Mr. Norgay is right. It is a time for commerce to exploit these beliefs and make a lot of money. They do the same thing for other days invented for that purpose, like Mothers Day and Valentines Day. Jonathan Miss Crispin, you are a Christian. What do you think? Is Christmas mainly just an opportunity to make money? Martha Crispin Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. First, I want to point out that Mr. Norgay was very respectful about our traditions, and I agree with him that many people have turned way from the deeper meaning of Christmas. But not everybody has. For many true Christians, December 25 is counted as the birthday of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. For the children, everyone understands birthdays, and they see the giving and feel the loving atmosphere of Christmas. The special food, decorations and presents give them a sense of occasion. They learn from this and later, when they are older, they understand the deeper meaning of Christmas. Jonathan Which is? Martha Crispin That Jesus Christ was born, like one of us, to share our earthly existence. Jonathan Thank you Martha. May I ask you how you feel about Mr. Hamiltons opinions about God? Martha Well, first, I want to say to Mr. Hamilton, that God loves him, Jesus is looking for him, and if he accepts Jesus as his Lord, he will be saved. Mr. Hamilton (interrupting) Miss. Crispin, how can you say that God loves me when I dont believe in him? Jonathan Just a moment please, I want to remind everybody that we agreed not to enter into arguments about our beliefs, but explain them and respect each other. Martha, doesnt Mr. Hamilton have a right to his atheist beliefs? Shouldnt you respect that rather than make a judgment about his status with God so to speak? Martha I am not judging Mr. Hamilton. There is a judge for him and it is not me. I am just witnessing to the Truth. Tenzing (laughing, interrupts) Miss Martha, you see this you are doing all the time; you are saying your God is Truth, He only right god. Mr. Hamilton believe in different God. You not right, Hamilton not right. Both you think up god - Real God, something else.ha ha ha (Tenzing laughs again.) Mr. Hamilton This is nonsense! Miss Crispin believes in God. I believe in no God. I am an atheist. Tenzing You see! You see! You talk positive! You say I believe in no God. So yes, you have belief! Belief in No thing! For Miss Martha God is Jesus, for Hamilton God is No thing. You both believers! You believe in Jesus; you believe in Nothing. Ha ha ha ha ha ! This okay, but wrong. God not Jesus completely, God not Nothing completely. God is mystery. God live in special mystery place. Invisible place! Jonathan Ahem! Well, let us all calm down now. Lets have some Christmas pudding. Mr. Hamilton Has the Christmas pudding been made with brandy? Jonathan Oh, yes! I believe it does have some brandy in it. It is genuine. Straight from Henry V Bakeries in London, England. Mr. Hamilton Well I cannot eat any then. I dont drink. I used to be in the AA. Do you realize how many alcoholics there are in America? Martha Me either. I cannot eat that pudding if it has brandy in it. It is against my religion to drink wine, spirits, liqueurs or any sort of alcohol. Abdul Me cannot drink this either. Why man put wine in cake? This is crazy. Cake no good with wine. In Arabia, we eat pine nuts, baklava, sesame rolls - no wine! My religion says, no wine - no, not ever! Jonathan Well, what about some turkey then? Abdul I no like turkey; we not allowed to eat pork neither. Daniel My religion also says I must not eat pork, but turkey is not pork. Turkey is like a big chicken. Jonathan Well everybody, eat whatever you like, but lets not argue. I want everyone to relax and to continue our talk about Christmas. Martha I cannot eat turkey; it is meat. I am a vegetarian. In the Bible God first made all the plants for man to eat; it says so in Genesis. He never made the animals to eat. Jesus never ate meat. Sunayna I agree with this teaching of Jesus. I am Hindu. We must respect all life. We eat no meat at all. I am a vegetarian, too. Mr. Hamilton For your information Miss Crispin, Jesus ate fish and he drank wine too! So why shouldnt you eat meat and drink wine? Martha Mr. Hamilton, first of all fish is not meat. Fish are cold blooded. Jesus did not say do not eat fish. In fact, that is mostly what he ate. And as far as wine goes, wine in case you did not know it, is grape juice. Jesus drank grape juice, that is what he meant by wine. Sunayna Can this be true? Your Jesus this good man - let people eat living creatures, fish? I do not believe. This is not Hindu teaching. Jonathan Please everyone. Just choose whatever you like on the table. There must be something that you can eat. I thought eating together would make the atmosphere more cheerful and easy-going. I thought this would help understanding between us. Although our religions are different, as human beings, we all must eat; that surely is a point we can all agree on? Mr. Hamilton Quite right! By logic and facts, all humans must eat. It is something we have in common. So let us all pick something we like and eat it together. Logically, if we all ate at the same time, we would be speechless while we chomped. Thus, logically, we would be united in something! Abdul This is a good idea. But I will not eat right away as it is time for midday prayer. But you eat; all of you. I will forgive you. I understand that you have not known the Prophet; but after lunch I will explain our religion to you. Now please excuse me while I pray. Jonathan Let us respect Abduls wish to pray. Now the rest of us, let us choose something to eat, and eating it together, recognize that our humanity is greater than dietary rules. Miss Crispin Shall I lead the worship in giving thanks? Daniel Excuse me, wait a moment. I understand your wish to eat together Mr. Jonathan, but I am afraid that as an Orthodox Jew I cannot eat from this table either. That white sauce over there looks like it was made with cream or milk? Jonathan It was. Daniel Well my religion forbids me to mix milk and meat at the same meal. However, if you take the turkey and any other meat products back to the kitchen, I will eat with you. Martha Mr. Steinway, I respect your religion, but surely you must realize that you personally do not have to mix the turkey and the white sauce. I happen to love white sauce. Secondly, there is a more important point here. We are trying to have a civilized discussion about Christmas. To take a bite together is symbolic. It is meant to show that as children of God we are all equal, even though some of us have not yet had the full revelation of the Lord, as I have. Sunayna You mean the Lord Krishna? Martha No, I should have said the full revelation of God, not the Lord. Sunayna But Miss Martha, I know all about God. I have been taught about Krishna and Shiva and Shakti since I was a child. Ian Kirby May I say a word? I have been silent, but now I feel I should speak. I am a professor of English Literature at a University in Germany. It is obvious to me that everyone here is missing the point entirely. All of you, except me, have absolutely fixed and rigid belief systems. You are all in prisons of your own making and become incoherent (that means muddled up) when outside of the frameworks of your own beliefs. Mr.Jonathan has tried to find common ground in his humanistic approach. As we must all eat and drink let us celebrate our common humanity (that means that we are all human beings) and by this will transcend (that means get above) our differences. But none of you here, except me, have gone this way. Daniel will not eat because his religion says he cannot eat pork, or milk and meat mixed. Abdul will not eat because it is time for prayer and there is brandy in the pudding. Mr. Hamilton will not eat because there is brandy in the pudding. He believes in Nothing, except Alcoholics Anonymous and himself. Sunayna wont eat meat, fish, eggs or any sort of animal product; and Martha wont drink alcohol or eat turkey because she believes Jesus was against meat eating because he never mentioned meat eating and only ate fish and vegetables in the Bible. So, why dont all of you just drop the subject of eating. Do what you like, eat or not; but lets talk about Christmas. Mr. Hamilton Are we to take it that you are a Christian, Mr. Kirby? Ian Kirby Well, I thought I was; but then my parents changed churches when I was twelve, and started going to a Baptist Church where they believed that you were not a Christian unless you were totally immersed in water. Now, I pointed out to them that the thief who died with Jesus was not baptized, and Jesus said to him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. But this Church told me they didnt count that, and the only way you could be sure of being a true Christian was to be totally immersed in water, but I never did do that - so now I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not, according to them. What do you think? Mr. Hamilton Well if you believe in God, you are. Abdul A Muslim Daniel A Jew Sunayna A Hindu Mr. Hamilton No, I was going to say, you are not an atheist. Ian Kirby Thats right. I am a not an atheist, or a Christian, according to the Baptist Church; and I have also found that all the other churches are muddled up. In fact, I found that there are some 20,000 Christians sects in the world - all who think they are right. Then there are the Roman Catholics who think all the other churches are wrong and only they are right. They think the Pope is infallible (that means cannot make a mistake) but the Protestant Christians think that each one of them is infallible and the only one in the world who is fallible (that means sometimes may make a mistake) is the Pope. Martha Ian, do you believe that Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior? Ian I dont know. Mr. Hamilton That means you are an agnostic. Ian Kirby Really? Where do they go to church? Jonathan Can we PLEASE start eating now! We have taken the turkey, roast pork and cold cuts out of the room. Anyone who wants some of them can go and help themselves in the kitchen. We also took the white sauce out, the stuffed hard-boiled eggs, the cheese platter, and the champagne we were going to open. Daniel This is a very good thing you have done. I feel inspired to tell you that I believe G-d would like to reward you for your respect for Orthodox Judaism and, for that matter, for respecting the little girls faith, and Abduls Islamic principles even though their beliefs are totally incorrect. Now, while you pray Miss Crispin, I shall remove my presence from this room, as we do not believe in the Messiah, in the same way you do. (Exit Daniel) Jonathan (after the prayer) I have poured you all a glass of water. Let propose a toast: To human kind! All To human kind! (They all drink their glasses of water.) Afterword After that, they assembled company fell about consuming what was left of the Christmas feast. Bread, fruit, vegetables and water were eaten and drunken silently and rapidly. At the end of the meal, everyone slipped out one by one to attend different functions at their synagogues, churches, temples and mosques. Ian Kirby the agnostic and Mr. Hamilton left in a taxi together and went to Smoothie King. Later, when Ian Kirby was alone, he went to a bar and ordered a double Scotch. He wondered idly to himself whether in the United Agnostic Church, whenever he found one, they allowed alcoholic drinks. If they do not, he thought, as the Scotch burned his stomach and rose to his head, giving him a moment of euphoria, I am not joining it.

I agee with you. I think we need to go to Christ's teaching and spend several weeks praying. meditating and discussing this saying of His: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." The problems is often that people focus on what Church leaders and committees say about running an institution than people focusing on Christ's teaching. I cannot for the life of me understand why people, who are after all semi-literate in the USA anyway. can't read for themselves Christ's teaching and understand that that is where there focus ought to be than to listen to the endless squabbles by Church hierachies who have ut Jesuss' teachings on the back burner and in His name try out new forms of the old Mosaic law. It really is time for people to change. yonatan