Bold Believer

Basically Eric, we agree. I specifically believe the Nephilim to be Cain's descendants for the reasons I outlined. The fallen line was there first, they had the reputation of being rough, tough and not taking stuff off anyone. Cain's kiddos were the bad guys taking right after daddy. Lamech's brag in the last verse of the context "Cain is avenged seven times, I, Lamech am avenged seventy times!" is more than ample proof to me of their ferocity and ruthlessness. Interestingly enough, one of the definitions of the word loqach (to marry) also implies being taken captive, as though perhaps some of the Godly women were taken off in raids and forced to marry into the Cainic line. In some places in the Middle East and Afghanistan, I have no doubt this sort of thing still takes place.

In the Hebrew culture, the male is an authority figure. If angels were female, who'd listen to them in that culture? The obvious answer: NOBODY. A Hebrew man of that time would respond much more readily to angel who appeared to be a man than one who appeared to be a female. That doesn't preclude that angels could NOT use the female form, only that in recorded Scripture they DIDN'T.

The question of whom the Nephilim were and are causes a lot questions, legitimately so, in the minds of Believers. It is therefore important that we as Believers look at the text and see just what is being said. Hopefully, it will give us all a greater understanding. Gen 6:1-4 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore {children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men of renown. The first verse tells us that men have gotten to the point where they have multiplied and fathered daughters. Now presumably they have fathered sons as well, but it seems that daughters are important in the context, so they are a focus. As we continue, we find a second category...bene Elohim or sons of God. It is here that the questions begin. Just who are the sons of God? And more precisely, why are they being given that name? Some will be quick to point out that the use of the term bene Elohim refers to angels rather than men, so I looked up the specific term bene Elohim. It's used 4 times in Scripture, once in Genesis 6 and 3 times in the book of Job. Two of the Job references refer to angelic convocations, the last to a point in time when the angels were praising God. One could try to make a case by the hermeneutic law of first usage that bene Elohim means angelic beings every time. At first glance, this seems correct. HOWEVER...Genesis 6 is literally the first usage of the term. We have no previous use to draw from, so we're back to square one. We could have a look at the equivalent term in the New Testament. The first usage there is Mt 5:9 about the peacemakers being blessed and that they shall be called the sons of God. They are being called so because an action they are taking. Making peace. Ehh, not much to go on there. It's apparent that men have assigned that title to these people for the good deed of making peace. The second usage is in Luke. Luk 20:34-36 Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Mankind in the resurrection is angel-like, neither marrying (male) nor being given in marriage (female). This passage has a clear implication that we will be in the resurrected state as angels are currently...neuter beings. Strike one for the bene Elohim being angels. Angels are neither male nor female, but neuter. In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, the Holy Spirit inspires the good doctor to use the term Son of God for Adam. This despite Adam's failing. (Luke 3:2) So then by extension, the sons of God could be men in Genesis 6, rather than angels. Now I will show definitely that the sons of God of Genesis 6 are IN FACT men. Look carefully at Genesis 6:2: Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. To take a wife is the word loqach meaning to marry. ANGELS DON'T MARRY. Jesus said so. Therefore, the bene Elohim of Genesis 6 are MEN. Furthermore, there is one other problem with equating the Nephilim with the sons of God. Let's look at it, shall we? Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore {children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men of renown. Read this passage carefully and you will come to the same conclusion I have, I believe. THE NEPHILIM WERE ALREADY ON THE EARTH when the sons of God started marrying. The Nephilim and the sons of God are not the same! Moses speaks of them separately from the sons of God. The sons of God were marrying and the Nephilim were already present. The Nephilim were the mighty men of old, men of renown. Who on earth are these guys, these Nephil? The word means bully or tyrant. Furthermore, Moses says they were the mighty men of 'olam' or ancient time and that they were men of renown (shem: name or reputation. People KNEW of these guys. They were not unknown, but rather WELL KNOWN. The term gibbowr (from which we get the name Gabriel) means mighty and brave and physically strong. I believe we can ascertain a clue as to who they were from an earlier chapter and an earlier story. We all know Cain and Abel's story. Cain murdered his brother...and then went into exile with his own wife and started making a lineage of his own. God put a mark upon Cain so no one would kill him in retaliation for the murder of Abel. Let's look at Genesis 4:16-24. Gen 4:16-24 Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son. Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech. Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and {have} livestock. His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. Lamech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, Listen to my voice, You wives of Lamech, Give heed to my speech, For I have killed a man for wounding me; And a boy for striking me; If Cain is avenged sevenfold, Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold." Ol' Cain has a pretty impressive lineage. And having killed his brother, undoubtedly a pretty impressive REPUTATION as well. He and his descendants were there early on. They would have had a reputation. Lamech bragged about killing a man for injuring him and a mere boy for hitting him. Tough guys. Mighty men. Brave men. Bad dudes. Tubal-Cain was a forger of various kinds of implements of bronze and iron. Anyone want to bet knives, and swords were amongst the things he was able to make? They have the bully reputation. They have strength and bravery. They are fallen in character. The Nephilim are none other than the sons of Cain. They would have had several years head start before Seth would have been old enough to father children, who would have had to grow up before they could father children. Their reputation would have made them giants in the minds of men. The shoe fits rather well I think. Far better than the notion that demonic angels fathered kids.

Brown-Driver-Brigg's נפל / נפיל nephı̂yl / nephil BDB Definition: 1) giants, the Nephilim Part of Speech: noun masculine Strongs H5303 נפל נפיל nephı̂yl nephil nef-eel', nef-eel' From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant. The only other occurrance for this word is in Numbers 13:33 which is refering to the sons of Anak which are the giants also. So if these Nephilim were just tyrants why use this particular word? and only for those in Gen. 6? Egypt was described as a tyrant, Herod was too but the writers of the scriptures didn't use nephilim. Honestly no one knows what the angels are capable of do we? We don't know if they can reproduce do we, scripture doesn't say. We only know that there is no marriage after the resurrection. You apparently didn't read the definition you posted. A Nephil is a tyrant. I can give modern day examples of nephlim: Benito Mussolini Adolf Hitler Hideki Tojo Saddam Hussein Qusay and Ouday Hussein (Saddam's sons) Osama bin Laden Crips Bloods Hell Angels various street gangs of renown various motorcycle gangs of renown Ted Bundy various other serial killers of renown The Taliban Islamic terrorists They are giants at doing evil. Have you never heard the expression in English "He was a giant of a man"? It does not refer to their physical stature necessarily, but to their deeds (in the case of the Biblical Nephilim, evil deeds). To the question of why angels are always portrayed as male, it's because males are the figure of authority. Angels are spirits and therefore neuter sexually. Spirits do not make babies.

Whenever strange new treaties and legislation come up, come here and read the HM2 and you will see how its principles are being implemented. This is not pie in the sky for the future, the Magogists are ramming this trash down the world's throat right now. If you told them they were doing the bidding of Satan, they'd laugh at you. They see their movement as 'human progress' and 'man evolving to the next level.' They have no clue that Satan is the one behind their movement to rid the world of what they consider 'religious intolerance' and 'God foolishness.' They do not look for a single individual (whom Christians mistakenly call antichrist) to be their leader. They see man as a collective working in synergy to achieve an evolutionary utopia. Paul seems to have seen this by the Holy Spirit; to him, each person involved in this is a 'man of sin'. So when he says the man of sin will arise, he is referring to the LOT of them. Like locusts, they have no king. They act in concert with one another to achieve a goal which the Devil has laid out in their minds. A world without God. John says of Magog in Revelation 20 and the latter portion of verse 8: "...the number of them is like the sand of the seashore." If this phrase sounds familiar, it should. It's apparently a common Hebrew idiom. It's used of Israel in Gen 22:17 and again in Heb 11:12, and also of her enemies; the Midianites in Judges 7:12 and the Philistines in I Sam 13:5. It's called used to describe the depth of Solomon's wisdom in I Ki 4:29. It refers to a vast number. Here in Revelation, John uses it to describe the vast number of people Satan brings against the Church in the final battle. They're like the Midianites and Philistines. And interestingly, like Israel too, or more precisely, like the descendants of Abraham. I described Magog as the 'anti-Israel' earlier. They are the descendants of Gog of Magog in their actions. They hate God, the idea of god and religion. To them, man is the end of all things. They are the truest fools in existence, for they say in their heart "There is no God." They're Midianite like and Philistine like in that they are militant and focused on driving out the very thought of God/gods or a Supreme Being. AND THEY ARE THE VERY CHILDREN OF SATAN SPIRITUALLY. Just like their daddy, they boldly declare "I WILL BE LIKE GOD." They believe their father's lie. Many corporations as well as governments have bought into Magogism. The most notable of late: IBM. They are implementing Tenet 17 like crazy with their so-called "Smarter Planet" drive. All of their efforts will come to naught. The Lord Jesus will destroy them and their efforts with the brightness of His Coming. They will be judged by their works and cast into the Lake of Fire, and the meek wll inherit the Earth.

Adam Weishaupt was the founder of the Illuminati movement. He is dead. You might be however be interested in this quote from a letter of Thomas Jefferson to the Rev. James Madison. (Note: This is written in an older style so don't make anything of the failure to capitalize some words. Also, Jefferson spells 'Weishaupt' as 'Wishaupt' on occasion. All emphases are mine.) Weishaupt believes that to promote this perfection of the human character was the object of Jesus Christ. That his intention was simply to reinstate natural religion, & by diffusing the light of his morality, to teach us to govern ourselves. His precepts are the love of god & love of our neighbor. And by teaching innocence of conduct, he expected to place men in their natural state of liberty & equality. He says, no one ever laid a surer foundation for liberty than our grand master, Jesus of Nazareth. He believes the Free masons were originally possessed of the true principles & objects of Christianity, & have still preserved some of them by tradition, but much disfigured. The means he proposes to effect this improvement of human nature are "to enlighten men, to correct their morals & inspire them with benevolence. Secure of our success, sais he, we abstain from violent commotions. To have foreseen, the happiness of posterity & to have prepared it by irreproachable means, suffices for our felicity. The tranquility of our consciences is not troubled by the reproach of aiming at the ruin or overthrow of states or thrones." As Wishaupt lived under the tyranny of a despot & priests, he knew that caution was necessary even in spreading information, & the principles of pure morality. He proposed therefore to lead the Free masons to adopt this object & to make the objects of their institution the diffusion of science & virtue. He proposed to initiate new members into his body by gradations proportioned to his fears of the thunderbolts of tyranny. This has given an air of mystery to his views, was the foundation of his banishment, the subversion of the masonic order, & is the colour for the ravings against him of Robinson, Barruel & Morse, whose real fears are that the craft would be endangered by the spreading of information, reason, & natural morality among men. This subject being new to me, I have imagined that if it be so to you also, you may receive the same satisfaction in seeing, which I have had in forming the analysis of it: & I believe you will think with me that if Wishaupt had written here, where no secrecy is necessary in our endeavors to render men wise & virtuous, he would not have thought of any secret machinery for that purpose. As near as I can figure out, Weishaupt was out to get the Masons to change back to what he (Weishaupt) thought was their original purpose, the promotion of Christian morality and teaching. Quite different from the modern day conspiracy theories about him. Perhaps Mr. Weishaupt, while misguided in his beliefs regarding Christ (apparently seeing Jesus as a good moral man and teacher), was not the bad guy some make him out to be either.

Right after their feelings about religion in general, they speak of ethics. "THIRD: We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous and situational needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest. To deny this distorts the whole basis of life. Human life has meaning because we create and develop our futures. Happiness and the creative realization of human needs and desires, individually and in shared enjoyment, are continuous themes of humanism. We strive for the good life, here and now. The goal is to pursue life's enrichment despite debasing forces of vulgarization, commercialization, and dehumanization. They don't want or desire the God of the Universe, they are their own god and therefore they need no binding ethics, only situational. Their hearts and minds are in the here and now The exact opposite of what Jesus tells us to do. "FOURTH: Reason and intelligence are the most effective instruments that humankind possesses. There is no substitute: neither faith nor passion suffices in itself. The controlled use of scientific methods, which have transformed the natural and social sciences since the Renaissance, must be extended further in the solution of human problems. But reason must be tempered by humility, since no group has a monopoly of wisdom or virtue. Nor is there any guarantee that all problems can be solved or all questions answered. Yet critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled. Thus, we are not advocating the use of scientific intelligence independent of or in opposition to emotion, for we believe in the cultivation of feeling and love. As science pushes back the boundary of the known, humankind's sense of wonder is continually renewed, and art, poetry, and music find their places, along with religion and ethics. Basically, the more we know, the more we can shove irrelevant religion out of the way. Science will tell us everything we need to know. The next part tells their take on the individual and sexuality. "FIFTH: The preciousness and dignity of the individual person is a central humanist value. Individuals should be encouraged to realize their own creative talents and desires. We reject all religious, ideological, or moral codes that denigrate the individual, suppress freedom, dull intellect, dehumanize personality. We believe in maximum individual autonomy consonant with social responsibility. Although science can account for the causes of behavior, the possibilities of individual freedom of choice exist in human life and should be increased. SIXTH: In the area of sexuality, we believe that intolerant attitudes, often cultivated by orthodox religions and puritanical cultures, unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. While we do not approve of exploitive, denigrating forms of sexual expression, neither do we wish to prohibit, by law or social sanction, sexual behavior between consenting adults.The many varieties of sexual exploration should not in themselves be considered "evil." Without countenancing mindless permissiveness or unbridled promiscuity, a civilized society should be a tolerant one. Short of harming others or compelling them to do likewise, individuals should be permitted to express their sexual proclivities and pursue their lifestyles as they desire. We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged. Moral education for children and adults is an important way of developing awareness and sexual maturity." In other words, they lift an upraised middle finger to their Creator and embrace The Lie. They are gods and they will determine good and evil for themselves. Individual choices should be increased, they say. What if someone chooses to have sex with your 14-year old daughter? Hmm. Or your 8-year old son. Hmm. Well, the children will be morally educated, so once they become sexually aware and mature...(Am I the only who sees where THAT is headed?) In a way they sound like petulent children..."Don't tell ME what to do! I'll do what I want!" But then, whom else does this sound like? (For the answer, see Isaiah 14.) The next section is on what they call Democratic Society. Do remember that the definition of a democracy is MOB RULE. Also notice that there has been a fundamental shift here in America and around the world to the use of the term democratic society. America is no longer referred to as a Republic, except on the occasion that the term is needed to get a point across. "SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would safeguard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." This is where all of the right to die, euthanasia and right to suicide garbage comes from. STRAIGHT OUT OF TENET SEVEN. This Manifesto is IN USE RIGHT NOW BY GOVERNMENTS WORLDWIDE INCLUDING THE US GOVERNMENT. Those who sponsor this type of legislation are getting it from the HM2. Did the world ever hear any of this nonsense on a governmental level before Humanist Manifesto 2? No, 1973 is a landmark year. They would safeguard all of these supposed human freedoms? HORSE POO! They like the Bill of Rights all right, as long as the Second Amendment is removed from it. As for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...more humanist bull dooky. Now in Tenet 8, their true colors start to show. "EIGHTH: We are committed to an open and democratic society. We must extend participatory democracy in its true sense to the economy, the school, the family, the workplace, and voluntary associations. Decision-making must be decentralized to include widespread involvement of people at all levels - social, political, and economic. All persons should have a voice in developing the values and goals that determine their lives. Institutions should be responsive to expressed desires and needs. The conditions of work, education, devotion, and play should be humanized. Alienating forces should be modified or eradicated and bureaucratic structures should be held to a minimum. People are more important than decalogues, rules, proscriptions, or regulations." Look very carefully at the last line of Tenet Eight, then remember what they said earlier concerning religion. Religion is an obstacle to human progress. In other words...AN ALIENATING FORCE TO BE MODIFIED OR ERADICATED. Their true colors are shining through, to quote the song. "NINTH: The separation of church and state and the separation of ideology and state are imperatives. The state should encourage maximum freedom for different moral, political, religious, and social values in society. It should not favor any particular religious bodies through the use of public monies, nor espouse a single ideology and function thereby as an instrument of propaganda or oppression, particularly against dissenters." Ever wonder why seperation of church and state has been getting shoved down the throats of Christs for the last 40 odd years? Wonder no more. The US government is riddled with humanists...and a humanist is a Magogist. Ever wonder how they plan to get rid of Islam? Look at the last line. Islamic states do exactly what the last line says, they espouse a single ideology (Islam) and function thereby as an instrument of oppression of their people, especially against dissenters. Can't have that in the Brave New World. "TENTH: Humane societies should evaluate economic systems not by rhetoric or ideology, but by whether or not they increase economic well-being for all individuals and groups, minimize poverty and hardship, increase the sum of human satisfaction, and enhance the quality of life. Hence the door is open to alternative economic systems. We need to democratize the economy and judge it by its responsiveness to human needs, testing results in terms of the common good. ELEVENTH: The principle of moral equality must be furthered through elimination of all discrimination based upon race, religion, sex, age, or national origin. This means equality of opportunity and recognition of talent and merit. Individuals should be encouraged to contribute to their own betterment. If unable, then society should provide means to satisfy their basic economic, health, and cultural needs, including, wherever resources make possible, a minimum guaranteed annual income. We are concerned for the welfare of the aged, the infirm, the disadvantaged, and also for the outcasts - the mentally retarded, abandoned, or abused children, the handicapped, prisoners, and addicts - for all who are neglected or ignored by society. Practicing humanists should make it their vocation to humanize personal relations. We believe in the right to universal education. Everyone has a right to the cultural opportunity to fulfill his or her unique capacities and talents. The schools should foster satisfying and productive living. They should be open at all levels to any and all; the achievement of excellence should be encouraged. Innovative and experimental forms of education are to be welcomed. The energy and idealism of the young deserve to be appreciated and channeled to constructive purposes. We deplore racial, religious, ethnic, or class antagonisms. Although we believe in cultural diversity and encourage racial and ethnic pride, we reject separations which promote alienation and set people and groups against each other; we envision an integrated community where people have a maximum opportunity for free and voluntary association. We are critical of sexism or sexual chauvinism - male or female. We believe in equal rights for both women and men to fulfill their unique careers and potentialities as they see fit, free of invidious discrimination." Magogism is communistic. They will take from X and give to Y. We see it here in the US. It may well be de rigeur in Europe as well. He he he...alternative economic systems. Yeah right. Tenet Eleven is where a lot of the crap we call political correctness sprouts from. Thou shalt not discriminate...regardless of how reprehensible and morally bankrupt someone is. If necessary, take everything the discriminator owns in a lawsuit to force them to comply with Magog's wishes. Also from Tenet Eleven comes the horse droppings that pass for education these days. Now to their plan for one world government, some of which is currently being implemented, but will ultimately fail. "TWELFTH: We deplore the division of humankind on nationalistic grounds. We have reached a turning point in human history where the best option is to transcend the limits of national sovereignty and to move toward the building of a world community in which all sectors of the human family can participate. Thus we look to the development of a system of world law and a world order based upon transnational federal government. This would appreciate cultural pluralism and diversity. It would not exclude pride in national origins and accomplishments nor the handling of regional problems on a regional basis. Human progress, however, can no longer be achieved by focusing on one section of the world, Western or Eastern, developed or underdeveloped. For the first time in human history, no part of humankind can be isolated from any other. Each person's future is in some way linked to all. We thus reaffirm a commitment to the building of world community, at the same time recognizing that this commits us to some hard choices." To quote the late Myron Cope of Pittsburgh Steeler radio fame: Yoi and double yoi! Transnational federal government. Whatta crocka poo. This is no harmless document: THIS IS THE MIND OF SATAN REVEALED. This is what he is having his deceived ones build. This is what is surrounding the people of God EVERY DAY. You hear humanist buzz-words on your TV. You see humanist legislation in your nation. You read about humanist inspired treaties (wait til you hear the whole enviro-nutty plan they have) in your newspaper. You get humanist inspired teaching in your public schools. It's like a giant python slowly surrounding its prey...just before it consumes it. You don't have to think too awful hard about the "hard choices" mentioned in the last sentence of this tenet. 1. Give up your national sovereignty. Forget the fact that brave men died to obtain your freedom. 2. Like the Borg, you will assimilate...or else, you're one of those alienating forces needing to be modified or eliminated. 3. Keep your lousy religion to yourself. We don't wanna hear about it. Eventually, you people will die off because we're gonna ban the practice of your religion, but til then...SHADDUP. "THIRTEENTH: This world community must renounce the resort to violence and force as a method of solving international disputes. We believe in the peaceful adjudication of differences by international courts and by the development of the arts of negotiation and compromise. War is obsolete. So is the use of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. It is a planetary imperative to reduce the level of military expenditures and turn these savings to peaceful and people-oriented uses." Tell THAT to the Iranians, the North Koreans and the Islamic terrorists...and see how long you keep your head. International courts. Yeah right. Oh yeah...goodbye Second Amendment. Magogism is behind THAT push too. "FOURTEENTH: The world community must engage in cooperative planning concerning the use of rapidly depleting resources. The planet earth must be considered a single ecosystem. Ecological damage, resource depletion, and excessive population growth must be checked by international concord. The cultivation and conservation of nature is a moral value; we should perceive ourselves as integral to the sources of our being in nature. We must free our world from needless pollution and waste, responsibly guarding and creating wealth, both natural and human. Exploitation of natural resources, uncurbed by social conscience, must end." This is where the entire Green Movement/Climate Change crowd gets their inspiration. We're getting this crap rammed down our collective throats RIGHT NOW. Green this, green that, global warming this, climate change that and blah blah blah. You WILL drive a smaller car. You WILL recycle whether you want to or not. You WILL conserve or else Al Gore will come to your town and bore you to death with one of his speeches. (OK, I give. Not Al, please. ) You WILL use a condom when you make love, or get a vasectomy. (Meanwhile, you can have sex like rabbits though, and if she gets pregnant, just abort it, there's no god to judge you for it.) America, you are the cause of all this waste. Bad America, bad. "FIFTEENTH: The problems of economic growth and development can no longer be resolved by one nation alone; they are worldwide in scope. It is the moral obligation of the developed nations to provide - through an international authority that safeguards human rights - massive technical, agricultural, medical, and economic assistance, including birth control techniques, to the developing portions of the globe. World poverty must cease. Hence extreme disproportions in wealth, income, and economic growth should be reduced on a worldwide basis. SIXTEENTH: Technology is a vital key to human progress and development. We deplore any neo-romantic efforts to condemn indiscriminately all technology and science or to counsel retreat from its further extension and use for the good of humankind. We would resist any moves to censor basic scientific research on moral, political, or social grounds. Technology must, however, be carefully judged by the consequences of its use; harmful and destructive changes should be avoided. We are particularly disturbed when technology and bureaucracy control, manipulate, or modify human beings without their consent. Technological feasibility does not imply social or cultural desirability." This is where a lot of US money goes. aid to developing nations. Just throw money to them. (So their godless dictators and roving Nephilim gangs can steal it and use it to buy weapons on the black market and cause more terror.) I love the whole diatribe about extreme disproportions of wealth, income and economic growth. Make too much money, we'll take it from you. If your economy is good, and someone else's isn't, we'll destroy yours and make things even. Tenet Sixteen is the source of things like stem-cell research. How DARE you Christians complain about the use of aborted babies' stem cells to help combat diseases. Notice: 'We would resist'...interesting choice of words. "SEVENTEENTH: We must expand communication and transportation across frontiers. Travel restrictions must cease. The world must be open to diverse political, ideological, and moral viewpoints and evolve a worldwide system of television and radio for information and education. We thus call for full international cooperation in culture, science, the arts, and technology across ideological borders. We must learn to live openly together or we shall perish together." Ever wonder why you HAD to have HDTV? Why analog stations were being forced off the air. Why all TVs now have to be able to accept HDTV? Now you know. The Magogists want it so they can brainwash, I mean educate, you. We demand all countries to live openly together. And now will you please rise for their International Anthem. Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one

With all the pre-millennialists' talk about a one-world government supposedly coming in the future, I felt it apropos to discuss the here and now of the one world government which Satan and his followers are trying to foist upon us. Before I say anymore in that vein, let me say this: THEY WILL NOT BE SUCCESSFUL. Christ will destroy them with the brightness of His Coming and they will be summarily relegated to the Lake of Fire. I. The Reign of Christian influence All Biblical Christians believe in a reign of Christian influence commonly known as "the Millennium." Even the so-called amillennialist actually believes in the reign of Christ, he just calls it the Church Age. The pre-millennialist believes it to be exactly 1000 years. Some post-millennialists believe it to be a time when the whole world will be converted. I believe that the millennium was the time when the Church went out and brought the Gospel to the world and converted many people to Christ and established Christian influence. We were reigning with Christ and in Christ. He is in heaven and will remain there until the Parousia, but He is the King and He reigns from heaven and used US (the Church) to extend that reign to earth. I believe that when HE said that all power and in heaven and earth was given to Him, He meant it. The millennium is not a future event, but now a PAST one. The Millennium was a reign of ideology and influence, Christian thought ruled the world. Christianity brought about changes in the old way of thinking. The gods of the nations were overthrown and replaced with Christian thought, Christian teaching, Christian influence, Christian ideology and Christian pre-eminence. II. The Binding of Satan Contrary to popular belief, the binding of Satan was not all-encompassing. It did not preclude him from working in individuals, but it precluded him from keeping the Gospel of Christ from going into the world (i.e.: 'that he should deceive the nations no longer until the thousand years are completed') The Gospel would not be stopped. People would hear. Their pagan gods would be shown to be inferior to Christ. The knowledge of the LORD would cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. The elect would be gathered by the messengers from the four corners of the earth. This does not mean that every single individual in the world would be saved, only that the world would be told of Christ, His love, His death and resurrection. The elect would respond, the reprobate would reject, but their ability to HEAR the Gospel would not be stopped. III. The End of the Thousand Years Revelation 20 states that the time of Christian control will have an end. Daniel on the other hand states "and of His Kingdom, there shall be no end." Is the Millennium then, the Kingdom of God? NO. The Kingdom of God is within us; the Kingdom of God is righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; the Kingdom of God is the catalyst by which the Millennium was able to take place. The Kingdom of God never ends; the time of Christian influence will,end and I contend HAS ended or is in its waning days. IV. The rise of Gog and Magog At the end of the Millennium, Satan would be released from his prison and allowed to deceive the nations once again. When would this momentous event occur? What is the proof that Christian influence is over and that Satan is free to exert control in the world of all men once again? Paul clearly tells us. When the Apostasy comes. Once the Christian church is riddled with apostasy, top to bottom, side to side, through and through, that would be the first sign. It would be then that the man of sin would be revealed who exalts himself to godlike status and opposes every god or so-called object of worship, so that he, standing in the temple, shows himself to be 'god.' The word for temple is naos, the holy of holies. This man of sin declares that He is god. Some equate this man of sin with 'the antichrist'. Unfortunately for them, Scripture militates against this understanding since the term antichrist is only mentioned four times in all Scripture, all in the writings of John, but never in any other apostle's writings. But then, if the man of sin is not this 'antichrist' figure, who could it be? A look at Revelation 20 tells us. It's Magog. The man of sin is not one person, but an entire lineage of people. The man of sin and Magog I believe are the same. When Paul says in I Timothy 6:11, '...But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness...' is he implying that Timothy is the ONLY man of God? Of course not. Nor is he implying in 2 Thess 2 that there is only one man of sin, as later on in the passage, he speaks of 'they'. V. Magog and the Humanist Manifestos In 1933, the first of these two piles of manure made its advent. I will not dwell on HM1; compared to HM2, it is peanuts, the tip of the iceberg, the head breaching the birth canal. In 1973, Humanist Manifesto 2 was brought forth. Just the very last portion of the Preface will tell you what its all about. "As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful, diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival. Those who sign Humanist Manifesto II disclaim that they are setting forth a binding credo; their individual views would be stated in widely varying ways. This statement is, however, reaching for vision in a time that needs direction. It is social analysis in an effort at consensus. New statements should be developed to supersede this, but for today it is our conviction that humanism offers an alternative that can serve present-day needs and guide humankind toward the future." 1. Your faith is outmoded and unproven 2. Your faith is harmful 3. Your hope of heaven and anything beyond it is false 4. Your faith is unreasonable 5. Man knows better than any 'god' Think THAT'S bad? Let me continue, or rather THEM continue. "The next century can be and should be the humanistic century. Dramatic scientific, technological, and ever-accelerating social and political changes crowd our awareness. We have virtually conquered the planet(yeah right), explored the moon, overcome the natural limits of travel and communication (does that imply that you can do it supernaturally?); we stand at the dawn of a new age, ready to move farther into space and perhaps inhabit other planets. Using technology wisely, we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduce disease, extend our life-span, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers(oh REALLY), and provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life." If this doesn't sound like "you shall be as gods..." I don't know what does. Let's let them stick their foot further into their mouth, shall we? "Faced with apocalyptic prophesies and doomsday scenarios, many flee in despair from reason and embrace irrational cults and theologies of withdrawal and retreat." If you believe in the Bible or any other religion with apocalyptic prophesies, YOU ARE UNREASONABLE. YOU'RE NUTS. Notice that they do not single out Christianity here, but ANY religion with such prophesies. What is it that the man of sin does...exalts himself above ALL gods or so-called objects of worship. "Traditional moral codes and newer irrational cults both fail to meet the pressing needs of today and tomorrow. False "theologies of hope" and messianic ideologies, substituting new dogmas for old, cannot cope with existing world realities. They separate rather than unite peoples." More put-downs of religion. Any theology of hope is false. Any messianic ideologies cannot cope with realities. They serve only to divide humanity. "Many kinds of humanism exist in the contemporary world. The varieties and emphases of naturalistic humanism include "scientific," "ethical," "democratic," "religious," and "Marxist" humanism. Free thought, atheism, agnosticism, skepticism, deism, rationalism, ethical culture, and liberal religion all claim to be heir to the humanist tradition. Humanism traces its roots from ancient China, classical Greece and Rome, through the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, to the scientific revolution of the modern world. But views that merely reject theism are not equivalent to humanism. They lack commitment to the positive belief in the possibilities of human progress and to the values central to it. Many within religious groups, believing in the future of humanism, now claim humanist credentials. Humanism is an ethical process through which we all can move, above and beyond the divisive particulars, heroic personalities, dogmatic creeds, and ritual customs of past religions or their mere negation." It is not enough to reject the idea of a god to these people, you must exalt man TO GOD LIKE STATUS, which is precisely what Paul says would happen. In temporary conclusion, I will say that the very first thing these magogists do is to jump on the idea of god and proceed to beat it to death. The very first two tenets of the HM2 is on Religion, and I will reproduce it here since it's short. "Religion FIRST: In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an expression of genuine "spiritual" experience and aspiration. We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural. Some humanists believe we should reinterpret traditional religions and reinvest them with meanings appropriate to the current situation. Such redefinitions, however, often perpetuate old dependencies and escapisms; they easily become obscurantist, impeding the free use of the intellect. We need, instead, radically new human purposes and goals. We appreciate the need to preserve the best ethical teachings in the religious traditions of humankind, many of which we share in common. But we reject those features of traditional religious morality that deny humans a full appreciation of their own potentialities and responsibilities. Traditional religions often offer solace to humans, but, as often, they inhibit humans from helping themselves or experiencing their full potentialities. Such institutions, creeds, and rituals often impede the will to serve others. Too often traditional faiths encourage dependence rather than independence, obedience rather than affirmation, fear rather than courage. More recently they have generated concerned social action, with many signs of relevance appearing in the wake of the "God Is Dead" theologies. But we can discover no divine purpose or providence for the human species. While there is much that we do not know, humans are responsible for what we are or will become. No deity will save us; we must save ourselves. SECOND: Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful. They distract humans from present concerns, from self-actualization, and from rectifying social injustices. Modern science discredits such historic concepts as the "ghost in the machine" and the "separable soul." Rather, science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces. As far as we know, the total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context. There is no credible evidence that life survives the death of the body. We continue to exist in our progeny and in the way that our lives have influenced others in our culture. Traditional religions are surely not the only obstacles to human progress. Other ideologies also impede human advance. Some forms of political doctrine, for instance, function religiously, reflecting the worst features of orthodoxy and authoritarianism, especially when they sacrifice individuals on the altar of Utopian promises. Purely economic and political viewpoints, whether capitalist or communist, often function as religious and ideological dogma. Although humans undoubtedly need economic and political goals, they also need creative values by which to live." 1. Your religion does mankind a disservice 2. There is no evidence for the supernatural 3. WE DON'T NEED A GOD; WE ARE GOD AND WE WILL SAVE OURSELVES! 4. Life after death is hooey, we continue on in our children and in our legacy. 5. Traditional religion is an obstacle to human progress. (Not the only one, but it IS an obstacle. What does one DO with an obstacle? REMOVE IT. Think these people are not dangerous? They want you dead jack, you are in their way.) There is more, but I can't keep going here.

ROFL. It's not Obama's one-world government. It's not the Bilderbergers' one world government either. Gog is the one behind the movement. Who is Gog? Gog is Satan, released from the bottomless pit. Magog are his followers, the anti-Israel so to speak (since John uses the description used by God to describe the descendants of Abraham to describe Magog). Their tool is the Humanist Manifestos, 1 and 2. These pieces of crap were written in the early and late part of the 20th century and they elevate man to ersatz godhood, relegating religion to a useless and powerless role. There is nothing to worry about here. Revelation tells us they surround the Holy City (metaphorically, the people of God) and that when they do, He sends fire from heaven to consume them. This comes at the end of Christian influence (often called the Millennium for the phrase in Revelation 20). This rebellion against Christian control and influence is the LAST one. The destruction of Magog occurs at the coming of Christ (the Parousia) on the Last Day. They are making all kinds of plans to do this, that and the other...BUT THEY WILL ALL COME TO NAUGHT. So why worry about them? Some of the things that you might expect to see as a result of the Gog-Magog rebellion: 1. Many of the tenets of the Humanist Manifesto 2 being implemented. Some are already in place. I suggest that Believers get a copy online and READ this piece of bull droppings (otherwise known as Humanist Manifesto 2) and see for yourself how so much recent legislation is spawning with it as the basis. Especially read the part where it reads: Mankind has no need of a savior, WE WILL SAVE OURSELVES, essentially declaring man to be a god. 2. An overt hostility toward ANY IDEA of a God/gods except in the most abstract sense, but especially the CHRISTIAN God. The HM2 is filled with remarks about outdated and outmoded religion and future hopes of salvation being ridiculous. 3. The uplifting of some of the most utter sexual filth imaginable. In one of the tenets, sexual expression of all kinds is praised between willing partners. Even children, you might ask? Not overtly...but then, they wouldn't advertise such a dark thing. 4. The possibility of religion being banned or suppressed altogether, again, especially Christianity, since they just HATE the idea of a future salvation (as evidenced from their writings.) 5. Lots and lots of enviro-nuttyness. Humanists are BIG on save the planet stuff. (Boy are they gonna be PO'd when Christ comes back and burns their precious planet to a crisp, then makes it all new again and they don't get to be in on it.) 6. Euthanasia, universal health care, redistribution of the wealth. Humanism is also communistic. 7. Technological 'miracles' of all sorts. Not a bad thing really...except when they're given a near religious connotation with man being the 'god' that causes them to occur. This from the Preface of Humanist Manifesto 2 should tell you everything you need to know and more As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful, diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival. They say in these few words: Your God is a joke Your faith is unproven and outmoded Your faith is harmful Your hope of heaven is false (and anything beyond it as well, like a new earth wherein dwells righteousness) You are unreasonable BEWARE OF GOG AND MAGOG.

Yes, the Christ-mass is a converted pagan holiday. Even a little research bears this out. St. Nicholas was a believer born in Turkey as Massorite has mentioned. The whole idea of flying sleds etc is ridiculous. What it shows is the danger of the nonsense of patron saints and tradition and so forth. If you believe it's a sin to celebrate Christmas, by all means don't. If you are not convicted in that vain, and see it as a celebration of the fact that Moschiach came into the world as a man to live live amongst us, amen to that. MY personal thought: He was born at the Feast of Tabernacles. This puts His birth in what we would call September or early October. The idea of the tabernacle for me comes from John's gospel, where we are told He tabernacled amongst us, full of grace and truth. We are never told to celebrate the birth of Moschiach, but then we are never told NOT to either. The MANNER in which we celebrate it means a lot though. If we're busily buying everything in sight for selfish people who already have more (most of the time) than they already need, is that really celebrating Christ's birth? Something to think about there.

I've been in the Holy Comforter Episcopal Church a number of times for meetings and work that they do in coordination with other denominations for the needy in central Virginia and I have never seen a female "Christ" in the church - do you have information on this? This church is very involved with the Richmond community and helps care for thousands of less fortunate and has many outreach ministries that involve many denominations. I have never seen anything like this in their church. This occurred many years ago. Look up 'Christa crucifix' online. The 'artist' who did the sculpture is Edwina Sandys, you might try looking under 'Edwina Sandys Christa statue'.

NCIS is one in a number of police investigation type shows. Intrinsically, there is really nothing wrong with the show. It's well written (usually) and the acting is excellent. It's military, not civilian, which holds my interest, but the whole 'all gods are the same' theme from last night needed to be exposed. By the way Black Death, not everyone buys into the whole pre-millennialist eschatology. My views have been stated in other places and I will not bother to restate them here. Frankly, history and Scripture both tend to mitigate against your position.

In a nutshell, Jethro Gibbs says Allah and Christ are the same. In tonight's episode (12/15) when dealing with the homicide of a Marine turned to Islam whose father is a Christian pastor, producer and lead actor Mark Harmon equates the true God and Allah, the Islamic lie. While I'm not surprised, I am NOT happy either. You see, if all "gods" are the same, it makes it easier to get rid of 'religion' eventually and demand they all cease and desist.

Are they turning away from CHRISTIANITY, or from CHRIST; that would be my first question. As others have pointed out, what passes for Christianity these days is pretty much drivel. I've got a problem with the whole every head bowed and every eye closed thing. It's like "You don't need to let anyone know you're a eliever now unless you want to." If you are ashamed down here, will God not be ashamed of you in Heaven? Second, someone mentioned 'the doctrines that divide us.' IF YOU HAVEN'T PROPER DOCTRINE, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE A FALSE CHRIST OR THE REAL ONE! I am SO sick of Believers whining about doctrinal differences. The differences are there so that the truth can be discovered. They are there so that the faith once for all delivered to the saints can be arrived at. Third, the whole Christian lovefest thing is about to make me hurl. Sometimes, you have to tell the truth about things and let the chips fall where they may. I read a day or so ago in a newspaper about an Episcopal church selection process for bishops in which some of the candidates were openly homosexual! Good Lord, not only is that disgusting, it's outrageous that it would be reported in the newspaper FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE. This is the product of the 'just love everybody' and 'we don't need doctrine' teachings. It's more loving to tell the truth then it is to allows someone to continue in a lie and be lost. Fourth, we are in the Apostasy of which Paul foretold. The Church has fallen from the standard which was set down by the Lord Himself and through the Apostles. How many denominations which were once bright lights have had their lampstands snuffed out? Well let's see: Episcopal/Anglican Church openly permitting homosexual pastors. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America doing the same thing. Roman Catholic Church covering up child molester priests AGAIN. Various denominations embracing New Age/Gnostic type teachings about Christ.. Various denominations embracing Islam. United Methodist Churches ordaining homosexuals (not sure if the UMC is allowing them openly yet) United Presbyterians barely staved off a vote a few years ago to allow homosexuals to minister (they may well have allowed it by now, I don't know.) The now infamous Christa blasphemy of a female "Christ" on a crucifix at the Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC and Holy Comforter Episcopal Church in Richmond VA. Robert Funk of the Jesus Seminar saying: "It's time to demote Jesus" A revision of The Living Bible supposedly reads "Our Father/Mother in heaven..." Supposedly (I have never heard whether this is true or not) Pastor Jack Heyford led an African witch doctor type dance at a Promise Keepers meeting in Atlanta. (This comes from Texx Marrs, so I am not sure if it is reliable or not.) TBN supposedly promoting apparitions of Mary These are just a few of the obvious signs that there is a massive apostasy going on within organized Christianity. Gog and Magog are running amok on the earth and the results are pretty obvious.

Adam only lived to 930 years, where does 963 come from? As for science discovering Adam and Eve, I'm a sceptic, but the information about the "Eve Gene" is fascinating. So how long did Adam and Eve last? We can never be sure. If it were me, minutes maybe.... If you believe there were no animal death pre fall, you also have to take into account the very short life spans of some animals. Some insects only live for days. Death entered into the world with the revelation of sin, there was no death at all pre-fall. Somehow the thought that the Fall occurred on the eighth day just doesn't seem to sit right. I doubt it was exceptionally long, but the earth being created mature, when death entered, decay began to set in. If the terrain features were created at full maturity, they might appear older than they literally are. (For example, humanly speaking: A person is a habitual smoker and drinker. Let's say they're 30. All of the smoking and drinking affects the skin and body, so the person appears older because of decay.)

Has anyone ever given thought to just how long past the Seventh day that the Fall occurred? It could answer a LOT of questions the evolutionists come up with. I just read the beginning of Chapter 3 and there is no mention of how long a span of time occurred between the Seventh Day of rest and the Fall of Adam. IF (and I say if) there was an extremely long period of time, it would account for the millions of years the evos keep coming with, yet not give credit to evolution, which we know is foolishness. I believe the earth was created in a mature state (i.e.: all of the animals and Adam full grown), so perhaps the planet was created in a mature state as well, making things seem older than they truly are.

The word 'ordinances' is what is giving me that impression Shiloh. The ordinances of the law which no matter how hard man tries to observe them in the flesh could not be kept and stood as reminders that we were never good enough (hence, being against us) The Law is good and just and holy, but because of our flesh, its impeccable holiness is a barrier to us in the flesh. With Jesus having fulfilled the penalty we rightfully deserve, the ordinances are removed, having been nailed to the cross (figuratively speaking). (It was customary for the Romans to nail the offenses a criminal committed to the upright of the cross, which is apparently where the analogy is drawn from.) So, yes, it IS our sins, and the ordinances were against us BECAUSE of our sins. Score one for each of us I think.

When Jesus said He came to FULFILL the Law, He was referring to the penalty. The soul that sins, it shall die, Ezekiel said. All have sinned, therefore, all must die. Christ took the penalty of sin on Himself for His elect, both natural (Jews) and grafted in (Gentiles), whom He chose from before the foundation of the world. His blood is the propitiation (the thing that satisfies God) for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. The two statements are not contradictory. Many are called (everyone is called to come to Christ and believe on His sacrifice as the satisfaction for their sins) but few are chosen (elected of God before the foundation of the world). The vessels of wrath do not respond to the call when it comes and are therefore condemned for remaining in their sins. In the OT, the priest would lay his hands on the sinner, then the sacrifice, ceremonially transferring the penitent's sins to the sacrifice. This is a shadow of Christ taking our sins unto himself. If you came in disbelief, of obligation rather than true repentance, the sacrifice had no real value. If you rejected the sacrifice's efficacy, it had no value TO YOU. As the writer of Hebrews states in the 10th Chapter, one who violated the Law of Moses dies at the testimony of two or three witnessess, how much more punishment is one worthy of who considers the blood of the covenant by which He was sanctified an holy thing. Rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for anything else trods the Son of God under foot and insults the Holy Spirit, an ETERNAL death penalty offense (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). So then Christ died for the whole world, but only the elect believe the efficacy of the sacrifice and are saved, the rejectors are vessels of wrath and die outside the covenant in their sins. The handwriting of ordinances which Paul refers to, is the types and shadows (ceremonial law/sacrifices of bulls and goats, etc) The moral law is still binding obviously, or we fall into the heresy of antinomianism (basically 'do as you like because the law is not binding'). The law is there on the fleshy table of our heart to show us the standard, sin is the breaking of the law. If the moral law is invalid, then we can go sacrifice a dog to some heathen god, have sex with our neighbor's wife, steal his goods with impunity and so forth and so on.

By their fruits you will know them. Case closed.

This is the price of forcing men to be celebate who are not gifted to be celebate, putting them in a position where they can not be seen with women but spend all their time around young impressionables. This is also the cost of trying not to embarass JESUS and putting HIM to public shame as a result of bad religion. It creates a hiding place for perverts of the darkest ilk. Early Catholicism did not practice celibacy, nor do the Orthodox Churches (except at the higher levels, bishop and above). It does not embarrass Christ to expose these men, it says "We are vigilant against evil." Rome needs to clean up its act before Christ removes its lampstand.

How did Adam know about a father and mother? God just told him in the narrative.

Well here's what I've gathered so far. Not every CoC (Campbellite) has exactly the same beliefs. The man I spoke to that day impressed me as being cultic because of his methods. I did have some basic knowledge of CoC teachings, hence my statement about their teaching on music and baptismal regeneration. 1. Baptism is linked to salvation in a certain sense. Baptism represents dying and being resurrected en Christou. By believing, we enter the covenant in faith, by being baptized, we take Christ's death and resurrection unto ourselves in faith. Baptism doesn't regenerate us as an ACT, i.e.: We are not saved because we've been baptized; baptism establishes in our minds and hearts that we have entered into Christ's death and resurrection as partakers (per Paul). If by time and chance, we believe and never get the opportunity to be baptized, we are still saved. 2. Man IS born a sinner. He doesn't acquire sin at some point in time, he becomes aware of its effects as he gains understanding in life. The sin is there from birth, were it not, then all God would have to do is kill us before we acquired sin and problem solved. No need to send Jesus. Of course, there'd only be 2 adults left in the whole cosmos, Adam and Eve, and since they're dead, no human race. 3. The idea of not using instruments because it's not in the New Testament that they are used is as spurious as they come. By that logic, I can go have sex with an animal, because the New Testament never states "Don't have sex with animals". Strange fire would be doing something SPECIFICALLY forbidden in a worship setting (sacrificing an animal for example and claiming it carries away our sins, since the former system is no longer valid, having been replaced by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.) 4, Any claim that a particular denomination, be it CoC or any other, is 'the only true Church', is meadow muffins and smacks of cultism, as does the idea that only a minister from that group has the authority to perform the baptism. The Early Church established with Athanasius that ANY Christian may perform a baptism in good faith. (Athanasius was like 14 or 15 and baptizing people whom he'd led to Christ. The Church agreed that his baptisms were valid because he had performed them in good faith.) I therefore conclude that not every CoC is cult-like, but each one needs to be examined on its own merits individually. Needless to say, I won't be attending this particular fellow's CoC.

Mahmoud....SHUT UP.

Obama's one world government? ROFL. SATAN-Gog's weak attempt at a takeover of God's established ways. It will be burned to a crisp at the appearring of our Lord. "Ain't Skeered" OF MESSIAH'S KINGDOM THERE WILL BE NO END! THE BEAST IS DEAD. LONG LIVE JESUS CHRIST.

I contend that it's more 'freed-will' than 'free will'. Man's will since the fall is controlled by his nature, a nature damaged by sin, brought into fruition by Satan and into the world by Adam through disobedience. Being in Christ gives us a look at sin which we did not have before we were in Christ. We see it as the Father sees it (or at least we SHOULD). Repentance means to change the direction; in this context, to agree with God as to the vileness of our sin. Before we were in Christ, we could have cared less, like a dog running free in the neighborhood, we (spiritually speaking) did our business wherever we pleased. Being in Christ changes the direction of our will and desire. We may not (because of the weakness of our flesh-nature) always be able to do exactly as we should, BUT WE ARE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THROUGH TRAINING AND DISCIPLINE AND A CONSCIENCE ENLIGHTENED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, when we fail, whereas before, WE HAD NO CONCEPT OF OUR SITUATION BEFORE A HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS GOD. Man has never been and never will be a "free moral agent". We have always been controlled, first by God (in Adam), then by Satan (in Adam) and now in Christ.