Bold Believer

How about we as Believers consider what Scripture says about His return? How many times does Jesus tell us just in John 6 alone that the LAST DAY is the day of the resurrection? How about the fact that Scripture tells us this in Acts: Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive* until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (*dechomai: to take hold of) How about the fact that I Cor 15 is specifically referring to the resurrection, and that Jesus tells us this: Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Is it not written that the word of two or three witnesses is sufficient in a matter, yet you continue to insist that the resurrection will be at some point other than the last day? Is the very Son of God a liar? Does the Son of God not understand His own Word? Here is the word of a Jewish woman, whom so many are inclined to say were uneducated and knew little or nothing about the Scripture: Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. If even Martha says this concerning the resurrection, why do modern theologians continue to insist that the resurrection will occur on some other than the last day? I'll paraphrase singer Dolly Parton: "What part of LAST DAY don't you understand?"

Misdirecting is a strong statement. Many do believe in what man writes and follow the ideas of others, believing they have it right. If it does not line up with scripture, than it is wrong. The Last Trumpet is just what it says it is, the Last Trumpet. Look also into Revelation 16:15, where Christ reminds us that He comes as a thief, which is in reference to Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10. The mentioning of the thief in Revelation comes after the 6th bowl, just before the final bowl judgment is poured out. The problem I have with pretrib is if Christ came for the church before the tribulation begins, He must be coming a second time after the 6th bowl, which there is no backing in scripture for. Jesus is only returning for His church once. Actually, that would be the 3rd time. Let us not forget the coming at the end of the millennium also in that theology. Just a few more reasons NOT to believe it. It makes no sense.

No.

The woman is the weaker vessel in terms of physical strength and emotional dependance. This doesn't mean women are stupid. God has however set down an order and He has placed the man at the head of it for His own holy purposes. Women are given much latitude in Scripture, far moreso than in other religions and cultures, Islam being the one which springs to mind first. Women are given value and worth in Christianity. They may teach other women and young children, they are mentioned more often favorably in Scripture than in the books of other religions so far as I know. It was the faithfulness of a woman which allowed Messiah to be born into this world. No, Scripture is not sexist at all.

Increasing our understanding of the Hebrew mindset behind the Word is a good thing. It certainly can't hurt. Just beware of Judaizing.

Spiritual concepts, being introduced had no exact language to describe them. The concept though is very clear. Hell is Eternal punishment for those that reject a free, and easy to obtain salvation from it. The fire that Jesus spoke of is never quenched. It never goes out, it burns forever and ever. I don't know how to break this to you, but that fire in the Valley of Hinnom has long stopped burning. Not the fire which Jesus spoke of though, and no physical fire can destroy a soul, and twist it into such great agony that it never be the same. We should not use Greek and Hebrew in an attempt to remove what is so simple and easy to understand.God was more than able to give us clear and concise meaning in English today. Everlasting, means Everlasting. Jesus Is Lord. And in its day, neither did the fire-pit of Gehinnom go out. The real Ge-enna will never go out, though its earthly comparison did. Believers have been using the Scriptural comparison of the valley of Gehinnom to the eternal Lake of Fire from time immemorial. It was meant to be used as such, which is why Jesus did it.

This is a blatant attack on the revealed Word of God concerning what God has said concerning the judgment of the unbeliever. You need to stop reading whatever foolishness you were reading. Sheol IS the grave, but it is not the end. There is a final ongoing death for the godless which Jesus calls Ge-enna and John calls Lumne-Pur. Some will be quick to point out that Ge-enna (Gehenna) was the humongus garbage pit outside of the city of Jerusalem which was continually kept burning, and so it was. Jesus compared the fate of the unbeliever to Ge-enna. John uses the term Lumne-pur to describe the fate of the unbeliever in the Revelation account of the Last Day. Lumne-pur means lake of fire. There is also the Hebrew word Tophet (place of fire) used 9 times in Scripture, the most interesting of which (to me) is this one: Isa 30:33 For Tophet [was] established of old, Yes, for the king it is prepared. He has made [it] deep and large; Its pyre [is] fire with much wood; The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, Kindles it Tophet is defined as: 1) a place in the southeast end of the valley of the son of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. I think most of us could draw the conclusion that Jesus is referring to Tophet when using the term Ge-enna. Notice that the Isaiah verse states that Tophet was 'established of old'. The word here is arak and carries the idea of a place prepared or set in order. I believe he is referring to the created order here. All creation was done within the first six days, so Tophet is certainly consistent with the idea of God having created a place of fire at Creation and not as an afterthought. Not only was Tophet ordained or established 'of old', but it was prepared for the king. Hmm. If it sounds a lot like this verse, it's because I believe they refer to the same thing: Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels The devil a king? You bet. He's the king of those angels who follow him. The word aggelos doesn't always mean heavenly beings, it can also mean earthly messengers. Those who follow the devil are his angels in that sense. The Isaiah verse conveys the idea that there is much wood in Tophet, as though the pile were being built up on a continual basis. Jeremiah 5:14 says this: Jer 5:14 Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts: "Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them. The word of God is like fire and those who fail to listen to it like wood. The two witnesses of Revelation 11:5 cause those who try to harm them to be devoured by fire. The word that they speak are the Law and the Prophets...God's Words, and that word causes their enemies to be devoured by fire on the Last Day. The lake of fire is not non-existence. Is it literal fire and brimstone? Honestly, I think so. Scientists tell us that the core of the earth is molten lava. What better description of molten lava, than a lake of fire? But I also think it's more than a simple continual burning. Those Scriptures which an unbeliever hears are input into that computer between their ears called a brain. Scripture says that the inhabitants of the Lake of Fire are tormented 'day and night' (a comparative term meaning continually). What could be more of a torment than to have the very thing you despise the most being replayed over and over and over in your conscience forever? Both the CIA and the US military know you can torment a prisoner by replaying something they hate over and over. Do you think that the God of the universe doesn't know that as well? The Isaiah passage also finally says that what ignites all that wood in Tophet is: The breath of God. It is the Word which judges men on the Last Day. Is eternal punishment real? You bet. And if you're an unbeliever, you can count on it.

AMEN.

Actually, most people who study the book of Revelation are stuck in this concept that the 70th Seven is the Tribulation, and that the last half of the Seven is the Great Tribulation. And being stuck, they misread Revelation when it talks about the "42 months," or "the time, times and half a time," or "a thousand two hundred and threescore days": Revelation 11:1-13:10 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. KJV Here, the phrase "42 months" was only bold-faced; the phrase "1,260 days" was bold-faced and underlined; and the phrase "time, times, and half a time" was only underlined. The three were given in different ways of telling time because they are three different time periods! They are NOT the same! A Jewish month always started with the sighting of the first sliver of a moon in its cycle, a "new moon." They would carefully watch for it because it was how they would judge when their holidays (holy days) would occur, and the lunar cycle is roughly 29.5 days. Sometimes, the sky would be overcast and the moon would not be visible on that day or even on the next. If that occurred, they would estimate when the new moon occurred by calculation, but they preferred actually being able to see the "new moon," and that day it was seen was itself a holy day, "ro'sh chodesh," the "holy head" of the month. Thus, 42 months = AT MOST 42 months x 29.5 days/month = 1,239 days, and because Jewish time-keeping allows for any portion of a time period as being counted as another of that time period, 42 months could also = AT LEAST 1 day + 40 months x 29.5 days/month + 1 day = 1,182 days! It would NEVER be a full 1,260 days! Regarding the "time, times, and half a time" phrase, I would assume that Yochanan (or Yeshua` or a messenger) used this phrase to link with Dani'el 7:25: Daniel 7:24-25 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. KJV So, such a quotation would link the Greek word "kairos," translated "time" (NT:2540), to the Aramaic word "`iddan," also translated "time" (OT:5732), for Daniel 7 was written in Aramaic. The Aramaic of Dani'el 7:25 is... Daniel 7:25 25 Uw-miliyn l-tsad `Ilaa'aah ymallil uwlqadiysheey `Elyowniyn yvalee' v-yicbar l-hashnaayaah zimniyn v-daat v-yityahavuwn biydeeh `ad `iddaan v-`iddaaniyn uw-flag `iddaan: JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh 25 Uw-miliyn = 25 And-words l-tsad = to/for-against `Ilaa'aah = [the]-most-High ymallil = he-shall-speak uwlqadiysheey = and-to-holy-ones `Elyowniyn = of-[the]-most-High yvalee' = he-shall-afflict v-yicbar = and--he-shall-hope l-hashnaayaah = to-alter zimniyn = appointed-occasions v-daat = and-decrees/laws v-yityahavuwn = and-they-shall-be-delivered biydeeh = in-his-hand `ad = until `iddaan = a-time v-`iddaaniyn = and-times (dual) uw-flag = and-half `iddaan: = a-time: The interesting thing about this word "`iddaan" is that it can refer to any cycle! The Hebrew equivalent "`eed" is used for the "menstrual cycle!" However, if we assume that it is referring to the whole holiday cycle being a full year, then we are talking about the Jewish SOLAR year, because it is based on the SEASONS, not the lunar months! And, the solar year, like EVERYONE'S year, is 365.2422 days long on average! So, now we are talking about a time period of 3.5 years x 365.2422 days/year = approximately 1,278.3477 days! So, we are talking about three different time periods such that... "a time, times, and half a time" (1278.3477 days) > "1,260 days" > "42 months" ([1182,1239] days). We can see that these time periods are close to each other, but they are not identical, and I believe that there's a reason why they were identified the way they were. You guys really are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. The 1260 days corresponds to the First Jewish-Roman war. Believers were saved out of it, though not taken out of the world. The apostate Jews were disciplined through it and (if you will) in great thlipsis which is tribulation or distress. There was another 1260 day just before the beginning of the First Jewish-Roman war, which was the Neronian persecution of the early church. This is the matter referred to in Daniel 7:25. Nero is the little horn who "wore out" the saints (Believers) for that time. It was the Jewish rebellion in roughly August 66 AD (it started in Caesarea) which slowed the saints' persecution, because Rome had to divert attention to the problem there. Eventually, the Roman military was devoting all attention to the "Jewish problem" and they left the saints alone.

Exactly WHERE in Daniel 9:24 to chapter end does the Scripture state that the covenant is 7 years in length? Where is the 'man of sin' in this passage?

I recently signed a petition on Change.org because a highway near my home is an absolute death trap and needs for the local government to get off its hind-end and DO something about it. Since then, I've been getting just bombed with liberal claptrap, the latest of which is some whining mother crying over the fact the Boy Scouts won't let her homosexual kid get his Eagle Scout award. Do be careful. This organization is nothing more than a sounding board for every liberal cause you can think of.

Steve S wrote: "Actually, Jerusalem wasn't completely destroyed by the romans in 70, that's a misconception, it was the temple that was destroyed. Jerusalem was sacked. There was, in fact, another war from 132 to 135 that pretty much ended all rights the Jews had to jerusalem. Where are you getting your history? It's called the war of Bar Kokhba, you should read about it. It took the romans over 2 years to put it down and finally ended up taking a legitimate roman army with Hadrian leading it. This resulted in almost 600,000 jewish deaths, which is probably more than the rebellion from 66 to 70, which may have resulted in as few as 250 thousand and maybe upwards of a million, probably somewhere in the middle. I'd also like your proof that the rebellion from 66 to 70 lasted exactly 1260 days, please." Correct, the city wasn't destroyed literally. The Temple was however, and the Temple was the seat of apostate Jewish rule and hence the problem. I am aware of the Bar Kochba rebellion, Bar Kochba allowed himself to be thought as Messiah. His name comes from Numbers 24:7 and means Son of the Star. The destruction of the Temple was a sign to apostate Israel that God had had quite enough of their shenanigans. Josephus states that roughly 1,100,000 were killed and about 97,000 captured and taken into slavery. Significantly, both First and Second Temples were destroyed on the same exact day, Tisha B' Av. If you find the date of the beginning of the war in 66AD, and trace the time until the fall of the Temple, it's 1260 days.

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base. That's right. Jerusalem TOOK orders from Rome (Nero). Luke tells us that initially, Paul was a part of this persecution. The Jewish leadership was in bed with Rome. Acts 9 specifically states that Saul (Paul's former name) ... "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." Why bring them to Jerusalem? Why not take those people directly to the Roman authorities? Because the whore was riding the Beast. Apostate Judaism was complicit with Rome in the persecution of the early Church. Yes, Believers were martyred in Rome and everywhere in the Empire, and the apostate Jews cheered Rome on. This isn't what you stated in your prior post though. You stated the reverse, roman complicity with orders from jerusalem. Many Christians were martyred by rome without any knowledge of the apostate leadership in Jerusalem. Anyway, your current contention is still even a stretch as the Romans held the jews in very little regard. As a matter of fact, Paul got a death sentence by the Jews overturned by a direct appeal to Caesar (though he was later likely martyred by the Romans). The jews and romans were never in lockstep about what to do with the Christians and both had separate reasons for their persecution of them. The jewish reason is obvious and I won't recount it here. The Romans persecuted christians for monotheism (just as they did the jews) and later because nero blamed them for burning down half of rome (which he likely had done himself in order to have adequate space to build a new palace). The pure fact of the matter is that Christians were largely sacrificial scapegoats for roman leadership while they were wrongfully considered blasphemous and abominatory by the jewish leadership. The Romans didn't like monotheists, this is true, but Nero's administration played the Jews against the Believers. Notice that in Rev 17, the Scripture states that the Whore's lover later turned against her and burned her flesh with fire (fire being what destroyed the city of Jerusalem.) The apostate Jews co-operated with the Romans to get rid of the upstart Church as a dangerous sect, and quite frankly, get an 'in' with the Romans. That worked for them until 66AD when the rebellion started. It lasted 1260 days, just as John said it would in Revelation.

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base. That's right. Jerusalem TOOK orders from Rome (Nero). Luke tells us that initially, Paul was a part of this persecution. The Jewish leadership was in bed with Rome. Acts 9 specifically states that Saul (Paul's former name) ... "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." Why bring them to Jerusalem? Why not take those people directly to the Roman authorities? Because the whore was riding the Beast. Apostate Judaism was complicit with Rome in the persecution of the early Church. Yes, Believers were martyred in Rome and everywhere in the Empire, and the apostate Jews cheered Rome on.

I have heard the zoon described as the highest order of creatures in creation: Man, the Lion, the Ox and the Eagle. All other creatures fall under these. God sits above the firmament (the glassy sea) and is separate from all His Creation. I find it interesting that the 24 elders and the zoon all worship and state the same thing, that they are redeemed by Christ's blood. Even Creation acknowledges that it is redeemed by Christ. The Lion, Ox and Eagle are the most intelligent or perhaps the most regal of the creation, and in some sense 'speak' for the other created beings who are unable to do so.

ENOCH2010 wrote: BB you've got a little explaining to do 1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished? 2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain? 3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem? Fair question ENOCH. 1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them. 2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness. 3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them. Revelation 11 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. They are real people ... not an allegory.. a real event that will happen Not necessarily. The Law and the Prophets were embodied in Jesus, I think we'd agree on that. He gave the true undestanding of the Law and the Prophets in all of his teaching. That teaching was passed on to the Church through the apostles. The proper teaching of the Law and the Prophets antagonized those who 'live upon the Land', the Jews of the time. They despised the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church to the point that they assisted Rome in their persecution (see Ch 13, the second Beast). The 2 witnesses are overcome by the Beast from the Pit (Nero), so this has to do with the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. The Law and Prophets are embodied in them through their teaching and beliefs. The persecution of the Church under Nero was 1260 days (three and a half years), yet this prophecy speaks of three and a half days. Who else was in the grave for three and a half days? Jesus. John is insinuating that these martyrs are like Christ in their death. It's also a Jewish tradition/belief that the soul remains with the body for 3.5 days before departing to judgment, if I recall. So then, they ARE real people (the martyrs) and this DID happen. About that portion of leaving them in the street and not permitting them to be buried, it's historical that Christian martyrs were often crucified and their bodies left hanging for days on the crosses, some even until they decomposed.

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them.

7Angel, the Protestant and Catholic canons have been different for a long time now. Books were rejected mainly because they were either Gnostic in origin, or had questionable writings when compared to the Scripture known to be true. Don't be surprised that such writings are given short shrift.

I'm confused about this logic here. Is this with reference to the united states or the world at large? There were places in the world where mentioning Jesus would get you executed during the periods which you speak. A little of both Steve. In the Christian nations of the world at the time (US, UK, Germany, France, Spain) one would have been safe enough. In Russia, perhaps. In Cuba, maybe. In China, perhaps. Islamic nations didn't really bother much with Christians when they had decent rulers. You were safe in many nations in the Middle East as a Christian until the militant nutballs came along; remember we had assets in North Africa during WW2. Lebanon had a large Christian population of her own. Egypt has always had the Copts. Things got bad after the oil embargo of the 70s and then Iran. The soviets ruthlessly purged Christians, as did the maoist regime in china after that country went to communism. What i'm getting at, though, is I don't know of anything even close to what one would expect even a highly allegorical millennial reign to look like, much less a literal one, in human history to this point. It's just a huge stretch to believe otherwise. It was obviously normal. God blessed those nations who followed him and cursed those who didn't. Christ ruled from heaven, where Acts 3:21 tells us he must be held until the restoration of all things.

I'm confused about this logic here. Is this with reference to the united states or the world at large? There were places in the world where mentioning Jesus would get you executed during the periods which you speak. A little of both Steve. In the Christian nations of the world at the time (US, UK, Germany, France, Spain) one would have been safe enough. In Russia, perhaps. In Cuba, maybe. In China, perhaps. Islamic nations didn't really bother much with Christians when they had decent rulers. You were safe in many nations in the Middle East as a Christian until the militant nutballs came along; remember we had assets in North Africa during WW2. Lebanon had a large Christian population of her own. Egypt has always had the Copts. Things got bad after the oil embargo of the 70s and then Iran.

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God. Men went to the moon. Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield. Sin was kept in check. Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days. Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home. Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner. Divorce was rare. The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL) Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media. Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual. People cursed rarely if at all. Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified. Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks. Christianity was well respected. Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release. God is a curse and a joke Man thinks he is a God Violence is everywhere World in turmoil

The war in heaven began AT THE BIRTH OF CHRIST. Look at Rev 12 from the beginning and you will see the references all speak of Christ's coming into the world. The devil tried earnestly to prevent it, because he knew that it would mean his demise but he was unable to do so. The war in heaven is not future; it is past and furthermore, it was WON! That verse from Rev 12 refers to Jesus' entry into our world. It's not eschatological, it's soteriological (having to do specifically with the Son).

Are you refering to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? And also did the Reformers believe that? Yes to the teaching parable. Did the Reformers believe what? (Just want to make sure what you're asking so I don't steer you in teh wrong direction.) Is a parable real or is it a story with a message? And I meant what did the Reformers believe concerning hell? Did they believe it is burning somewhere now? Now that I look at that particular passage, Jesus never states it's a parable. Jesus is telling something which is true. Really? Its a true literal story? Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. How many people can Abraham's bosom accomodate? Is there communication between heaven and hell? And most importantly, can the dead communicate with the living? 1.It once held all of the Older Testament's righteous dead. Since Christ had not come to take them from there into the presence of God, we can fairly believe that the number was quite large. When Jesus died, he went into the grave and took those righteous people into the presence of God, called by Paul 'taking captivity captive'. That event is described in one of the Gospels as well, speaking of the tombs coming open and the dead seen in Jerusalem. (Matt 27:51-53) 2. No, none. Since HE is God in human form, Jesus is able to relate this story for the benefit of his listeners and us readers. 3. No, the dead cannot communicate with the living; nor can the living communicate with the dead. It is strictly forbidden in Scripture. Why is that 'most important' to you? This is a common theological response regarding this passage. HOWEVER, there are certain things that one must understand about this passage. It would be wise to look at the passage in the Greek as the language for the most ancient of texts we have of this passage. Here's a transliteration of the passage (using "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, "oo" for omega, and "f" for phi): Kata Loukas 16:13-31 13 "Oudeis oiketees dunatai dusi kuriois douleuein; ee gar ton hena miseesei kai ton heteron agapeesei, ee henos anthexetai kai tou heterou katafroneesei. Ou dunasthe Theoo douleuein kai mamoona." 14 Eekouon de tauta panta hoi Farisaioi filarguroi huparchontes kai exemukteerizon auton. 15 Kai eipen autois, "Humeis este hoi dikaiountes heautous enoopion toon anthroopoon, ho de Theos ginooskei tas kardias humoon; hoti to en anthroopois hupseelon bdelugma enoopion tou Theou. 16 Ho nomos kai hoi profeetai mechri Iooannou; apo tote hee basileia tou Theou euaggelizetai kai pas eis auteen biazetai. 17 Eukopooteron de estin ton ouranon kai teen geen parelthein ee tou nomou mian keraian pesein. 18 Pas ho apoluoon teen gunaika autou kai gamoon heteran moicheuei, kai ho apolelumeneen apo andros gamoon moicheuei. 19 Anthroopos de tis een plousios, kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenos kath' heemeran lamproos. 20 Ptoochos de tis onomati Lazaros ebebleeto pros ton puloona autou heilkoomenos 21 kai epithumoon chortastheenai apo toon piptontoon apo tees trapezees tou plousiou; alla kai hoi kunes erchomenoi epeleichon ta helkee autou. 22 Egeneto de apothanein ton ptoochon kai apenechtheenai auton hupo toon aggeloon eis ton kolpon Abraam; apethanen de kai ho plousios kai etafee. 23 Kai en too Hadee eparas tous ofthalmous autou huparchoon en basanois, hora Abraam apo makrothen kai Lazaron en tois kolpois autou. 24 Kai autos fooneesas eipen, 'Pater Abraam, ele-eeson me kai pempson Lazaron hina bapsee to akron tou daktulou autou hudatos kai katapsuxee teen gloossan mou, hoti odunoomai en tee flogi tautee.' 25 Eipen de Abraam, 'Teknon, mneestheeti hoti apelabes ta agatha sou en tee zooee sou, kai Lazaros homoioos ta kaka; nun de hoode parakaleitai, su de odunasai. 26 Kai en pasi toutois metaxu heemoon kai humoon chasma mega esteeriktai, hopoos hoi thelontes diabeenai enthen pros humas mee dunoontai, meede ekeithen pros heemas diaperoosin.' 27 Eipen de, 'Erootoo se oun, pater, hina pempsees auton eis ton oikon tou patros mou, 28 echoo gar pente adelfous, hopoos diamartureetai autois, hina mee kai autoi elthoosin eis ton topon touton tees basanou.' 29 Legei de Abraam, 'Echousi Moousea kai tous profeetas; akousatoosan autoon.' 30 Ho de eipen, 'Ouchi, pater Abraam, all' ean tis apo nekroon poreuthee pros autous metanoeesousin.' 31 Eipen de autoo, 'Ei Moouseoos kai toon profeetoon ouk akouousin, oud' ean tis ek nekroon anastee peistheesontai.'" Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies Luke 16:13-31 13 "No servant can two masters serve; for either the one he will hate kan the other love, or to one he will pledge allegiance and the other disrespect. You cannot serve God and Wealth." 14 But listening to all these-things the Pharisees who were lovers-of-silver and they overtly sneered at Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are they who justify yourselves before the men, but the God knows the hearts of you; for the one in men who is highly respected an abomination in the eyes of the God. 16 The Torah and the Prophets right up to Yochanan (John); away from then the Kingdom of the God is announced as good news and everyone pushes to get into it. 17 But it is easier for the sky and the ground to go away than from the Torah one kuwts (thorn or horn of a Hebrew letter) to fall. 18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the female divorced from a man marrying commits adultery. 19 "But a particular man was wealthy, and was robed with purple clothes and white linen and he lavishly partied every day. 20 But a particular beggar named Elezar (Lazarus) was thrown in front of his gate, ulcerous, 21 and longing to gorge himself from that which fell from the table of the wealthy man; but even the dogs came and licked his ulcers. 22 But it happened the beggar died and he was born away under the messengers into the haven of Avraham (Abraham); but the wealthy man also died and was interred. 23 However in the Unseen, He raised his eyes, beginning under in tortures, seeing Avraham a long way away from (him) and Elezar in his haven. 24 So, he addressed him saying, 'Father Avraham, have pity on me and send Elezar so that he may moisten the tip of his finger with water and cool my tongue, because I am tortured in this blaze!' 25 But Avraham said, 'Son, remember that you received your benefits in your life, and Elezar likewise (received) the atrocities; but now here he is consoled, but you are grieved. 26 and in all these between us and you a huge chasm is established, so that those who want to cross from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us.' 27 But he said, 'I ask you then, father, so that you would send him into the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, so somehow he may warn them, so that they won't also come into this place of torture!' 29 But Avraham said, 'They have Mosheh (Moses) and the Prophets; let them hear them." 30 But he said, 'No indeed, father Avraham, but if one were to go to them from the dead, they will change!' 31 But he said to him, 'If they won't hear Mosheh and the Prophets, nor will they be convinced even if one rose from the dead!'" So, there are three notable things here: First, the word translated "hell" is actually the Greek word "hadees," which strictly means the "unseen," as we would use the word the "unknown" today. It is not a place of infamy, but rather of forgottenness! Certainly, this term is used for the "grave," but it is MORE than that; it is the state of being "out of sight, out of mind" to the living! The second is that Avraham's "bosom" is the Greek word "kolpon," and means "a haven"; not the "center of a hug!" The third is that, while some say this passage proves that we go directly after death to Avraham's haven or to the torture of the Unseen, I believe it says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! In order for Elezar to have a "finger" to dip in literal water to cool literally the wealthy man's "tongue," they must first have "fingers" and "tongues!" And, "voices" and "ears" and "eyes," etc! Therefore, I believe that this is a picture of what they will experience IN THE RESURRECTION! He wakes up in the GRAVE! Since the wealthy man's first awareness is that Elezar is already safe within Avraham's haven, I further believe that this may be the resurrection of the unjustified AFTER the Millennium. A good reason for this is the fire that the wealthy man is experiencing! So, I believe that this fire is the same as the fire the unjustified will experience at the Great White Throne Judgment! I don't know if it has ever bothered anyone else, but it has always bothered me that the theology about "sh'owl" or "hadees" has been claimed to be that an "unsaved" individual dies and goes to the "bottomless pit" or the "center of the earth" and burns there until he is resurrected at the resurrection of the unjustified after the Millennium and is then judged and then thrown back into the Lake of Fire! Into the fire, out of the fire for judgment, and then back into the fire. Why wasn't he judged BEFORE he was thrown into the fire the first time?! AFTER the judgment, the person would understand why he was so punished, but BEFORE the judgment? Sure, he probably has a good idea why he would be worthy of such punishment, but he still hasn't been judged, yet! I don't think that's how it works for the unjustified. I believe that they literally cease to exist at death as a form of "soul sleep." For us, time would pass, but for the unjustified, they die and then the next thing they know is that they are disgorged by their graves as death and sh'owl/hadees give up their dead, are standing before the Great White Throne Judgment in their resurrected bodies, and are receiving and experiencing their sentence, the Lake of Burning Sulfur! OK, so your understanding is that the passage is a fast forward to the Last Day? I can't disagree with that, it's certainly possible. As for soul sleep for the unrighteous, that would be letting them off the hook. They'd be getting a break from judgment which they don't deserve. My understanding is that the unrighteous dead person's body is in the ground decomposing and that their spirit and soul are still viable, but trapped in that body until the Last Day. WIthin themselves (their conscience) they are in utter dread, knowing the truth which they denied while alive. They KNOW they're headed for the lake of fire. They may even have visions of it, or even perceive it.

One other thing: pyramids are prominent in New Age teaching and I think Rosicrucian teaching as well, which both have roots in occultism. Again, the concept of the cube indicates perfection on every side, no matter how one looks at or approaches the city. The cornerstone holds together the foundation. The foundation is the teaching of God.