JCISGD

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him. Prov 26:4 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. Prov 26:5. Dont ya just love Gods wisdom and humour. IMO this means, dont answer a fool/unbeliever- ("the fool has said in his heart there is no God") by answering his arguement, but ask the Holy Spirit for a word/advice to cut his folly off at the knees. And as Nebula said pray and fast for them. I have a christian friend who has answered a workmates unbelieving arguements for 14 yrs without effect. Funny that.

strange then that Jesus should warn some to go and sin no more unless something worse befall them, if He only meant that they should have faith? God has always offered His grace to repent, we must do our part and exert our will towards Gods will.

If you want to talk about attaining perfection, please start your own thread. If you want to discuss the definition of sin, please add your comments in here. You miss my intention completley. Judge not lest you be judged sister.

be careful to only quote "be perfect" but dont expect to obtain it or you may be seen to be preaching heresey.

The reasons i see that God gave this command are not proven nor do i claim God told me, are as follows. First before the flood when men were vegetarian they had become totally saturated/overtaken by evil thinking except Noah and family, so it stands to reason if God destroys them and starts afresh something needed to be changed or get the same result. It is now known that meat has properties that vegetables dont except from eating very large amounts of. Also meat eaters are known to be more agressive and its of note i think that vegetarianism and passivism go hand in hand in most cases and religions. Although eating too much meat does have adverse health effects, i believe eating meat is designed for making us more aggressive to fight evil in spiritual battle. "The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force" I am not pro meat eating and i grew up a vegetarian, im only saying i think meat eating has a place.

I think all agree Israel are the natural branches and we gentile are the grafted in, but its wrong to believe Jews A.D are praying to God unless they recieve Jesus. Its clear that B.C only those Jews who had the faith of Abraham were saved by their faith in Christ to come, and that many Jews were lost to hell. Jesus` chastisement of the Pharisee`s was that not only were they lost and not following God (as Abraham in true righteousness), but that they were also blocking the way for average people to find salvation. It should be remembered that God stopped sending Prophets to Israel 400 yrs prior to Christ, as they had hardened their hearts and were no longer listening to anything He had to say. By leaving them in barreness and Prophetless they eventually were ready for the coming messiah, but those who reject Christ are still lost and are not praying to God if they persist in Judaism, and denying Christ has come in the flesh. Imo their understanding of Gods nature and will is ALL wrong, and based on false religious self effort.

Acts 20:7

I havnt been following this thread and have only read the first and last pages, but i thought i would add an interesting side note. In the film, "Bamboo in winter" (a true account of an underground church in China), a young girl takes over the mantle of her evangelist grandfather who had been killed by the authorities. Alone in the woods she recieves Gods call and goes down to the river and immerses herself as baptism and comes up full of the power of God to do his work. Being self baptised? and also a girl preacher, blows my theology more than a little, but i cant argue with the authenticity.

hi Isaiah, Jesus had all the Angels at His command, but chose to show humility unto death. A soft answer turns away wrath and heaps coals on your enemies head. You are the apple of Gods eye whoever touches you angers God, and He will always bring justice as long as you forgive and leave it for Him to judge. I have seen this multiple times, its not just a nice platitude. Ive had two bosses yelling in my face, but i said nothing and went to them later and spoke softly admitting my fault and acknowledging God was using them to correct me. Both did complete 180 % turns and one went through a divorce soon after and i met him again several years later and is a good friend. God is testing you through this mans hypocrisy, beware lest you be found a hypocrite too.

another misleading claim is that a generator onboard could compress air while driving and so produce more energy to be used, but thats nonsense as far as i understand it, as the energy used to drive the generator comes from the compressed air which means it will not last as long. The talk of perpetual motion is the same as getting nothing from nothing, its not possible in this world unless God changes the laws of Physics.

Getting back to OP, was not George Fox`s life astounding. Imprisoned, beaten, left for dead, raised up by Gods power, misunderstood, misaligned, persecuted, railed againts and reviviled, miracles and healings following his preaching. All the things Jesus said would happen to those who believe and follow Him. Maybe George Fox did have some errors or failings, i havnt seen any yet but even if he did, i would rather emulate him or Finney or Wesley, as they emulated Jesus, than anyone ive ever met in 20 yrs of being in christian fellowships around the world.

Thats a fair enough answer imo. I always thought there was not written word untill moses and that the creation account etc were passed down by oral tradition and part of keeping one day in seven in rememberance of Gods work of creation. This would have been a time of sober reflection and communing with God i reckon. Ok how do we know its God when we are prompted to speak or witness to another person or pray for healing, or maybe as Elisha was told to lie on top of the dead boy and place his face on the boys face and his lips on the boys lips? These things are not spoken against but neither are they specific commands for who what when. I mean in todays world it would seem awful wrong for a man to lie on a dead body and esp a boy, and the bible says to avoid every appearance of evil.

Sorry i was away, my answer is , True. Tell me how did Abraham know it was God who spoke to him when he was told to sacrifice Isaac. Based on the bible would he have obeyed God. Yes or No to the last part please

I am not saying that everyone has the love of Jesus in them. I am saying you can meet Jesus in everyone even if they hate Jesus you can meet Jesus in them. This happens when we become born again. Becoming born again is mystical and is a gift from the Holy Ghost. So - even if they HATE Jesus we can meet Jesus in them? Just how does that happen? You throw being born again out there but it has nothing to do with how people who HATE Jesus actually HAVE Jesus in them.... Did George Fox explain this? Believer i respect you find it too hard to communicate with me and i dont expect any reply, i just want to urge you to read Fox`s journals before his doctrine and then make up your own mind, which was the point of my OP. I dont know other sites and the links i provided were deleted but im sure you can find one easily, but i hope you will read his accounts and not those of detractors who usually skew things around to bring false chareges in my experience.

uh, i hate to be the one to break it to you, but one can not serve God in their heart without having Jesus as their saviour to begin with. your theology is really in need of serious repair. God is not the "love" in every person we meet. i guess though that you've finally, in a round-about way, answered the question you have been asked a hundred times... that yes, you believe that the love of a homosexual for their lover is "God", and that the "love" that told that woman to drown her five children was "God". Ladyi think your taking Seeker way out of context, he is only saying we who are true christians show our love to Jesus and leave sin by loving everyone we meet, and love is the fulfillment of the law. If we love everyone where is there room for sin?

I dont think Seeker is saying all have Jesus, quite the opposite. He has only said God speaks to all but not all listen, and this imo is why the native in deepest isolation has no excuse. I think what Seeker is saying is that as Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of these you do it to me" So no matter who we love we are loving Jesus and no matter who we hate we are hating Jesus, and "whoever does not love his neighbour does not love God".

Was Elijah doing God's will when he fled and begged for death? We have no record of Enoch doing anything other than having offspring, living in close fellowship with God and being taken to heaven again, we have very litte accounts of them after that. And there are things one could debate if they were a sin or not. I have to ask, why not? This is the thing that I dont get the most about this view, you say that we can be sinless, but you are not. You say we can be "like the book of Acts" and yet you are not? What about this passage? Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

Im replying out of curteousy and at some point i will leave WF to go and obey the voice of the Lord wherever that may lead. If you only allow that which you already believe, then I dont know how any light can get in if youve got the windows boarded up and all the doors locked. I hope all here will go and read Fox`s journals for themselves, and not be put off by any errors that the George Fox site owner subscribes to.

I am a sound reasoner, I just don't like to deviate from what I believe are solid biblical doctrines . The bible is full of examples of people following Him, and yet sinning. As for 1 Jn 1:18, you claim this is sinning "apart from Jesus", what do you mean by that? The passage doesn't say that. And yet, 1 Jn 2:1-2 is addressed to christians, and what happens WHEN we sin. Sorry bad sentence structure, i meant Jesus was the only one who has never sinned. The OT has some examples of this but Elijah, Elisha and Enoch have no record of sin, Elijah fled from Jezzebel and became depressed but that is not sin as i understand it. There is no account of any Apostle sinning after they recieved power from on high at Pentecost. Andy is your life like the book of acts and are you moving in power as Jesus promised? Im not but ive always believed it to be possible if not the norm? Have you read Fox`s journals ? 1 Jn 2:1 says "so we will not sin" and v2 is what we do if we sin. No one is saying that a Christian does not ever sin, but that does not mean the norm is sinning. You have not responded to the many verses that prove we need not continue in sin.

who is this "you" whom you refer to? anyone who disagrees with you and seeker? who is this life-giver you refer to? finney or fox? The giver of life is Jesus (God) i didn't ask you. i'm asking who it is JC thinks we are rejecting as the life-giver. because not ONE of us posting in this thread has rejected Jesus. we're rejecting the vain (and very flawed) teachings of man. LadyC, i have not named anyone i only quoted scripture and the Holy Spirit speaks through His word, but i dont know anyones heart and if it doesnt apply to you dont make me out to be saying such. Why would you think i was ascribing life to mortal men, Jesus Christ is the only God and life giver. Have you read of Fox`s preaching and life, its astounding. I dont mean for us to become quakers or that everything on that website is correct. I still hold Finney up as America`s greatest revivalist, but Fox moved in some astounding power. Both believed and claimed entire sanctification, so theres a clue about the crux of their influence and witness.

Its 100 times better proved in the links that i posted but got deleted. Ive been down this road so many times and i know all the scriptures you will bring, but its going to end in stalemate of interpretation unless your willing to accept sound reasoning as well. We do not leave our reason at the door when interpreting the written language and the bible does not ask we do. In fact God Himself says "come let us reason together". 1 Jn 1:8 is only disputing anyone who claims to have never sinned apart from Jesus, and v10 goes on to challenge any who do. 1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense

hi all, im not surprised by the replies to date and they are just more proof of what God has been trying to show me for atleast 15 yrs. There is so much to reply to, but im grieved before i start as i already know my relies will be met with misunderstanding and resistance instead of openess and humility to listen without fear. Firstly i need to restate my position and recap briefly what has brought me here. Its too bad that the links have been removed as now there is no reference to what i was pointing to. I first heard about Jesus 20 yrs ago at age 28 and i gladly accepted Him as God, and i had no struggles with any part of the bible as truth, i accepted the account of Genesis as literal, and i believed God still to be a miracle working God. I began my journey with Pentecosals who were alive and wining souls?, but holiness was never urged or really spoken of. I went through about 5 yrs of great turmoil and conflict due being seperated from children and trying in vain to save my broken marriage. I also met with much temptation as i rejected all of my old life of hard drinking, drugs and sexual immorality and i watched no TV. Often i was despised and misunderstood, and at times slept rough like a fugitive but the joy of the Lord was definatley mine. I never heard of the possibility to be free of sin, although it was apparent we were to fight or flee it. In due time the Satan sidled up to me and i was to hear of the many excuses to cover up or deny sin, or that it was unavoidble etc. My own heart decieved me at times and I went back into old ways, the tentacles of sin were never completly severed. It was about this time that i first read of Finney and i rejected his words as legalist rubbish much like most i come accross do. But God was in it and the light broke through, renewing my strength and i became an evangelist to the truth that not only could we be free of sin in this life, but that it was meant to be the Christian norm. I was sure my fellow believers would be estactic as i, but i was wrong and i met with the opposition and fear i meet on WF. My zeal for God carried me much but i was missing the most important need to get sanctified myself first before preaching to others, and i eventually ran out of zeal and furtherback into sin, disillusionment and resignation. I still believed what God had shown me but i no longer relished my bible reading or going to church. Enter Worthy Forums and the world of the internet. I thought i had found an international fellowship and that i would find others who believed as i. I also came across the MDR topic and after 20 yrs i heard for the first time why my marriage and life had been messed up. This too excited and encouraged me and my zeal was renewed to preach the truth. But again with few exceptions i have only ever met opposition and some of the most unchristian attitudes, censorship and fear. My most pressing concern has always been that my life does not match up to my beliefs and although i know they are true i see i have not been walking with Christ for much of my so called christian life. George Fox `s life has renewed my faith that it is possible and desireable to be free of all sin, but that it takes being quiet and obeying the Lords voice. Many will do anything in this life except be still and know that He is God and i am one of them. Now some answers to challenges. Firstly we are to be saved. The thing we are being saved from is our sin, not Adams. We are not being saved from hell. Sin leads to hell but it is sin we must escape.(all sin) We must not rest untill Christ the hope of glory removes all sin. We do not overcome sin in our own strength nor can we, trying harder will only make it worse. It is a work of God with our yeilding and obedience to the voice of God. If we still have sin we may be being saved, but i wouldnt count on it if we know we are not yeilding to God. I do not set Finney, Fox, Wesley etc on pedestals above the word of God, that is a nonsense as they preach only from the bible. It is you who set yourself above the glorious work God did through these sanctified vessels, and their lives attest to this. Know ye not that you search the scriptures to find life, but reject the life giver?

i have just found this account of George Fox and i am both excited that true Christians exist and subdued as i see now for 20 yrs i have been decieving myself that i am Christ`s just because i believe. Edit links* This mans life couldve been straight out of the book of Acts or the gospels, and its staggering that the same people that resisted Christ the truth are still resisting Him today, some here on worthy. I care not if i get banned for saying such, what do i care im not even saved as I still sin and crucify Christ. I know i was called and i loved going to church and worshipping Him as I thought Him to be, but i didnt follow and i never truly obeyed and i thought i was saved from my sins while sin was still my master. Satans biggest lie is that Christians still sin. Whoever commits sin practices lawlessness; for sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4 As you have received Christ Jesus, the Lord, so walk in him. Col 2:6 He who says,