JCISGD

I have no idea what you are referring to - no one has assigned motives to anyone - we've only responded to what Nox has stated. You seem to have this maligned sense of persecution of either yourself or others .... just a thought - perhaps you should examine your own motives. - Jotful Perhaps you should be more careful what you say Amen to? I know my motives but I do not know yours, nether have I assigned any motive for what you say, but it is wrong to accuse Nox or anyone of motive. Now you are assigning motive to me. Is it so hard to ask me why I have said what I did? Im sorry if it hurts to be publically reproved but my motives are pure. Nothing - was ever said, written or done to "Nox" that required reproof.... But it seems that you are exceptionally adept and prompt reproving others... I have no idea whether your motives are pure or not - I believe G-d judges that. Believer I am sorry I come accross that way to you. I cannot understand why you think it ok to say Nox was "getting off trying to go as deep and dirty" but even if he was, surely we cannot know this unless he admits it. Do not the rules of WF and the commands of Christ compel us to treat all people with respect? If Nox is deluded then he needs our sympathy. Perhaps I am wrong as you say? it did appear to me to be an unloving and unchristian thing to say. "Be cunning as serpents and gentle as doves" Peace and love in Christ, Arthur.

I dont think they are turning away as much as they recieved a false gospel or did not count the cost. Although it says their love grows cold because of the wickedness around them, if the seed did not fall on the good soil it never took root and flourished. This false gospel is not preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, and true conviction of sin is not present. They only are sorry about their lives and not sorry about their rebellion against God. They see themselves as having a "sickness" called sin, rather than a rebellion against a holy and loving God, so they just slip up their hands or make a profession of faith, but there is no heart change for obedience. This was my experience and it has taken years to come to grips with. It is true that Jesus will "fix up our lives", but only if our hearts are changed from rebellion to obedience.

I have no idea what you are referring to - no one has assigned motives to anyone - we've only responded to what Nox has stated. You seem to have this maligned sense of persecution of either yourself or others .... just a thought - perhaps you should examine your own motives. - Jotful Perhaps you should be more careful what you say Amen to? I know my motives but I do not know yours, nether have I assigned any motive for what you say, but it is wrong to accuse Nox or anyone of motive. Now you are assigning motive to me. Is it so hard to ask me why I have said what I did? Im sorry if it hurts to be publically reproved but my motives are pure.

Arthur, I do not see them condemning this person at all, or trying to see the heart of Nox. Can you give specifics? What I do see is calling sin a sin and using scripture to do so. Are we not told ... James 5:19-20 (New King James Version) Bring Back the Erring One Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Ever wonder about the name nox? Nox is slang for Nitrous Oxide, a gas that is used to get high. This is quoted from Jot and Believer and MG gave a Amen to it. I am not defending Nox`s position or lifestyle but when is it Christian to throw around accusations. Even so Jot did say "I believe" I objected to the assigning of motives. I havent assigned any motive to Jot,B and BG i have only reproved them for their wrong treatment of another. If Im wrong to do so may the LORD judge me, as I know He will.

Jot, Believer and MG it is not right to assign motives to Nox, you do not know his heart only God does. Scripturally we are to ask others what their motive is, preferring to be wronged rather take another to court.

-Babbler I agree with Babbler. Even though i watch tv, somehow i just cant see Jesus going to movies or watching tv, not even for the news?

It would have to be an audible voice from the Lord to get me to date an unbeliever. When the Isralites married into other nations they always followed them into idol worship. I dont know why this is but it is. As others have said dont. I also dont believe dating is good or necessary fullstop and definatley no physical contact whatsoever. I personally have seen this seemingly harmless show of friendship go very wrong. A man i know worked overseas for a year without pay, but did ask the Lord for a wife. Unbeknown to him a woman came on the next ship and said on arrival God had sent her to marry him. A few years on and two children they are still both happily married and serving the Lord.

hi Gg, i thought it was quite good and still do, but wyguy`s comments made me look closer and i agree with him. I will add that your last comment does not say you lost all that you loved, but all that you had. You might want to think about that in the light of wyguys comments. On a side note but still related i feel i will share an insight with you I learned from going through a 12 step programme for addictions. We were asked to write down our lives up to this point. We each then read them out and unbeknown to us we were being assessed by the amount of feeling we showed in our stories. Almost everyone had written factual accounts with little feeling about the events in their lives. Our mentor went on to say that those who could not get in touch with their feeling did not stay sober or get healed. I can verify this as i stayed in touch with some of the others and they could not see what our mentor was saying and despite claims of being free they all soon lasped into their addictions. Not saying this has a personal application for you, but it may help in your story writing. God bless.

Im not wanting to condemn anyone by suggesting that we are less spiritual if we are not being persecuted, but i want to encourage us to not shrink back from persecution to be encouraged from the testimonies of others and the link provided. http://mnnonline.org/article/13606 I myself am not being persecuted in the true sense of the word, but i know of some who are and they are an encouragement to me.

I was actually confronted with this issue last night, and I reacted much in the way that you have written about here. I do not think it's ok for "christians" to do this. First and foremost in my life is God, and being true to Him, not another person. Ahhh someone who gets it.

Then I might suggest to you that this is evidence of something more physiological than spiritual. Have you ever been checked for chemical imbalance? No I don't have the habit of going in to get my brain state checked You misunderstand me. What I mean is that it gives me a clear headedness and insight into things that aren't achievable in a normal state of mind. I'm not trying to say I KNOW I'm right here, I really don't, which is why I'm wondering what others' opinions are. For me it's kinda like the same thing as masturbation (terrible comparison I know!) which is never condemned in the bible, yet is often paired with lust (but doesn't HAVE to be) BTW: while I'm at it, what is the difference between pure sexual desire and lust? Is there a difference? Sorry to go off on a tangent but don't feel like creating another whole thread. Hi Nox, I want to reply to your questions and will openly state why and how these things are wrong, but i hope you do not think i have any ill feeling towards you. Quite the opposite actually as i recognise myself in you as i was a liberal humanist before i met Christ in 1990 and the Lord has gradually changed my understanding on many things. Firstly i will say i see alot of your veiws seem based on how these things make us feel, but i want you to see that feelings are good but not for a guideline of right or wrong. God deals with us as thinking beings and being capable of reasoning with, therefore He says "come let us reason together" and often asks to look into our heart to see that it is not right. I was a heavy drinker and smoked dope with friends who preferred this or both. The short term effects of both of these was a sense of freedom and fun filled days, but a man reaps what he sows and plants take time to grow up into fullness. I watched my best friend go from an astute life filled guy to eventual deluded and paranoid unmotivated person. He was still capable of acheivement but was not based in sound reality. I also saw many other young lives robbed of potential and eventual death or delusionment. Nox there is a spiritual world we cannot see and we have a spiritual enemy Satan who wants to rob, cheat and destroy humans because he knows this hurts God so much. He cannot touch God so he goes after those God loves. The rules are set based on this, and because we cant see the spiritual we need to be guided by Gods word the bible and not our feelings. Its like being blindfolded and being led by another, if we trust them and follow their instructions we are ok. All drugs alter our chemistry and spiritual entities known as demons look for opportunities to enter our being while our defenses are weak or down. Those drugs used for recreational purposes do not create but destroy by making us dependant on them to get the experience we are seeking. Life with God is designed to bring great joy and meet all our needs, but we prefer to live lowly in mundane or fruitless comfortability of the things we know and grew up with. Masterbation is prohibited under the 7th commandment (which covers all sexual sins including lust), because it causes a selfish seeking of gratification and takes away from life rather than giving life. It is also known as Onasim after Onan in Gen 38:4-9 who the Lord struck dead for spilling his seed on the ground instead of procreating life. I dont think we can honestly seperate lust (strong sexual desire) from masterbastion, if there was no lust no one would do it. Lust (sexual desire) is not wrong between a husband and wife and God designed it so we would "go forth and fill the earth with godly offspring, but Satan has perverted it to rob, cheat and destroy. Pure sexual desire then is any desire that can be fulfilled in marriage. Its not wrong to have desires but some must be denied so they die off and others are to be fulfilled when certain conditions are met, and in the case of sexual desire this is in within the confines of love in marriage. I hope this is of help to you in your understanding of why some experiences that seem to be harmless or even enlightening are in the long run harmful. Feel free to send me a PM if you want. God bless, Arthur

Botz- i hope you didnt think i was dismissive or angry at your replies, far from it and i do appreciate your attitude and love shown. I dont want to talk examples as i dont take offense to others, im only discussing principle and not trying to stop anyones opinion by force, even if they think i am condemning. What im getting at is that, isnt telling someone they are condemning another against free speech and actually a form of censorship? If I felt condemned I would take it to the Lord. Nebula- Paul was refuting those who were adding to salvation by insisting on circumcisson etc, but i am only disscussing right behaviour of a Christian and not their salvation. This is where i think you and others are overreaching and in danger of censorship and silencing anything you dislike with the cry of "condemnation". Thanks both of you for your interest in the welfare of others and myself, i will continue to allow the HS to show me error through your words but for now remain unconvinced by your arguements and thoughts. If you reply to this i will read it but may not reply as it might be overlabouring the topic. God bless.

hi Or'el, imo, God gave the Isralites laws to make them a seperate people that would learn off Him and be a holy people that hunger and thirst for righteousness, then He could make them a light to all the Nations for the salvation of the whole world.But they would not stay close to God and rebelled at every turn. Now Jesus is here those cerimonial laws are no longer valid, and God wants to use Christians to win the world but we too often rebellious and the world can not see our light. The moral laws however can never be set aside as long as we have a free will as moral creatures. It will never be ok to be immoral. Although no one can be saved by keeping the law, anyone who breaks the ten commandments (moral law) and teaches others to do so will be called a worker of lawlessness by Jesus and will not enter into heaven.

Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words". But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only? Are you your brother's keeper? We all have a responsibilty to choose our words carefully and teach sound doctrine, bearing in mind to whom we are engaging and the possible outcome if we are unclear, or mis-understood. You are again presuming that because a person has been saved and is a disciple of the L-rd...they only listen to His voice, I expect you draw your conclusion based on the passage of 'My sheep hear My voice....' but don't forget the many warnings about false teacher's and false doctrine that Paul had to constantly address....sheep get lost, and when they are lost, they get confused and can hurt themselves. Hi Botz i agree with much of what you say, and assure you i do watch my words carefully so as not to deliberatly hurt another. Surely your not saying i am responsible for my brothers feelings? Feelings are produced by what a person thinks and surely i am not responsible for what another thinks. If so, does it work both ways? i too could cry "condemnation" does it mean everyone must walk on egg shells incase i am offended? WF is not a church and states that is an open forum subject to guidelines, surely it is censorous to insist one person to curtail their opinion to appease others? Sorry Botz but i think you are over reaching and have an hyper understanding of not stumbling others or consideration of those with a weak conscience.

What are the 1/3 of angels cast out of heaven with Satan doing if they are not now demons following the orders of him?

Botz- Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words". But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only?

hi Fez, the problem with that is that i aready know what i think about it, but i wanted to know how others thought about. The confusion arising i think is because it appears i am objecting to something personally, but im only discussing principle. I havnt taken any offense to anyone and just trying see how others think it another can condemn them? It doesnt matter to me what others say to me, i never feel condemned, i just weigh up the proof of their claims and my mind either accepts it or rejects it. i.e You could say im going to hell for not saving enough souls etc. Would i feel condemned or guilty? I dont think so as mty salvation is not based on works but on my heart. If i felt any guilt about it i would check my heart before Jesus and see if it was valid or not, but i wouldnt blame the guilt on someone else as its my conscience and they are not responsible for how i percieve their comments.

All i can say is i must speaking a foreign language? No matter what i say people always insist i said something else and then go about thinking they disprove me. This is when i usually ask for ONE point at a time to avoid going to mars before we get to the moon, but this seems impossible for folks also and they would rather carry on accusing me of all manner of evil motive 1.)Where did i imply/hint or even insinuate that i was above correction? I went to lengths to say the opposite. - reply to Tah #3 i think. Botz you havnt answered my questions and then have gone on insisting i am bringing condemnation. 2.) How can i? i am no authority nor do i claim to be. 3.) Is this an open forum? or are we only allowed to say what others want to hear?

Amen.

I'm not entirley sure that your making any sense whatsoever brother. Who has censored you? Peace, Dave Hi Dave i think your reading into my post, im not saying I have been censored. What part doesnt make sense, perhaps i can clarify? My post is asking how a "christian" can accuse another of bringing condemnation, if we know Jesus and listen to His voice? Im only saying we are in danger of censorship and "killing the prophets"i mo, if we accuse others of bringing condemnation or guilt. (im NOT saying i am a Prophet) But i am asking the question as perhaps there are legitimate reasons to object to percieved condemnation. I posted this as both an objection and to see what others thought about it. peace, arthur.

Hi Tah, I agree with what your saying and think we have a different understanding of the word censor, to me it is like the way tv programmes are edited by an elected person. I have no problem with being admonished, my point was how can a Christian feel condemned or guilt from anothers words if they know and listen to Jesus. Jesus said the Pharisee`s killed the prophets just as their fathers did, Im not calling anyone a Pharisee but imo we are in danger of grieving the Holy Spirit if we begin to censor what others say by accusing them of bringing condemnation.

Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks.

How is that a Christian can say someone else is condemning them or placing guilt on them. If we know Christ then surely we only concern ourselves with what He says to us. I can understand how unbelievers can come under false condemnation and guilt as they often listen to the lies of Satan etc. Is it not deflecting or dishonest attempt to silence another voice or opinion? Jesus did not cry foul when accused of false things, He refuted them but I dont see him trying to censor anyone. Are we supposed to censor preachers we disagree with? what if they are right and it is we who need to repent or change our thinking? If anyone here should tell me "your wrong and in danger of hell", I would merely ask them why they think so and if they can sufficiently prove to my mind they are right, I would be very grateful for the correction. But if not I would only think "oh well thats your opinion but I disagree". Why would I take offense and accuse them of trying to condemn me or bring me under guilt. If the shoe fits wear it, but if not dont. There will always be differing veiws on every subject, and i maintain that although we are to defend correct doctrine, censorship endangers silencing the voice of Gods messangers. The Jews did this and heard no prophet for 400 yrs B.C, asthey killed the prophets they disagreed with. Is it right that "christians" do this also?

Unless something is outright wrong such as murder, lying etc, then it is motive alone that would make it right or wrong and even good things can be done from a wrong motive and therefore be sin. In the case you speak of only you and God know your motive, I agree with JB and Melasthanatos

-RG I stated this in my OP, but people cant grasp the concept that motive is taken into account when deciding wrongfulness of anything. Is it not so in all courts? - Melasthanatos The bible doesnt just give the facts of Jesus life but the tenor of it as well. At 12 he was found in the temple teaching the scribes and pharisee`s. But your right He may have i just dont see it somehow. -BB This is a good example of my point, your activity is both interesting to you and helpful to the spread of the gospel. It is does not seem vain or selfish, but only you and the Lord know your motive and i am not trying to decide anyones motive. -Hs Why are you implying things to me i have not? Where have i said watching tv or the bears on tv is vain? or that God would be mad at you for doing so? I agree whatever is not done in faith is sin, i am not trying to censor anyone or anything. -KC Where did i say that? Im am talking motive and have tried to show that religious things can be done vainly also if done from a wrong motive.