JCISGD

The most common understanding of sanctification is that its a process, and never entirely attained in this life, but this is not what many who found a deeper experience testify to. It could be that many are called and recieve justification, but only few are chosen to recieve entire sanctification. Those that testify to this experience (myself not being among them) say that it is a second instantaneous work of God, but it does require wholehearted seeking just as salvation does. IMO those who are casual or distracted in their seeking shall not find or be chosen.

where does the bible say we have a sinful nature ?

Are you toying with me ?, nevertheless your first wife will still be" called an adulterous women" and find herself in hell, and if you are not willing to pray and wait for her repentance, may well be guilty of dealing "treacherously with the wife of your youth". Malachi 2: 14-15. My brother, as i have stated i am not your judge and i may be wrong in my understanding of scripture, all i am urging is that you pray and consider all the scriptures. I have tried to remarry several times and i have good friends who did, but something (i now believe was God) always stopped me. The churches i am involved with all said i was free to marry because of the "exception clause" in mat !9:9 and Pauls words about unbelievers departing, but i believe they were wrong and there is no exception other than unlawful marriages such as incest or a false claim to virginity.

No IMO Rom 7:2+3 says that if you only have one wife, the one you first marry unless one of you die. As long as you have considered all the scriptures i have nothing more to add, if you have peace about your choice so be it. blessings in Christ,

As long as you have peace about it. I have no motive other than your happiness and wellbeing. God is not the author of confusion, and there is alot of grey out there. As for me it was all grey for 20 yrs but now i see that only death breaks the tie made by a lawful marriage, as God hears our vows and holds us to our words. I guess if one was to say " i dont promise to love you untill death" then God would not hold them to their marriage. Remember Jesus said even performing miracles and casting out demons, does mean that we know Him, and a happy remarriage and ministry doesnt either. Peace to you hs.

, It is common for judgemental people to accuse others of being "holier than thou" or of being judgemental, and we usually see in others what is in us. IMO that is what Jesus meant about" not judging lest we be judged". He wasnt saying not to judge or reprove but to becareful the log in our eye is first removed. True saints hardly notice the faults of others and usually get taken advantage of as they know that they are not the true loser. Guess ive got a way to go yet.

I would not wish that on her either, but the question is not wether she has moved on but has God changed his law, that "whoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery". I say this absolutly in love, IMO your wife is living in adultery and will find herself in hell if she dies unrepentant,that would be far worse than discomfort and inconvienence in this life. Humbleseeker i might be wrong but its what i believe God has shown me, i am only urging you to really pray about it and lay aside any desires, seeking only the truth. IMO the exception clause in Mat 19:9 has been taken out of context and does not square with the rest of scripture.

I think I would probably give the young lady with the tat and piercing a friendly smile and greeting and ignore the judgmental individual who felt the need to critique something that is done... and now over with. Her criticism won't do any good at this point and also, conversely, your criticism of the woman who judged will also not do any good - I'm in favor of letting the Lord sort it out later... imo. Case in point believer1997, you are judging the person who thinks tattoos/piercings are sinful as "judgemental", but what if they are right and you are wrong. I have tattoos but when i came to Christ the Spirit of God convicted me of there wrongfulness and demonic origin. I just cannot understand Christians who say they are ok.

Alot of people confuse judging with reproving. A judge passes sentence thats final, and likewise it is wrong to call someone "racca" (worthless, an idiot, hopeless etc), or that they are going to hell without hope of repentance. Jesus also said it was wrong to say who is going to heaven. Reproving error and warning of sin are scriptural mandates. Paul was not shy to do either and instructed churches and believers to do the same. Not saying that your post is about me but to my knowledge i have never judged anyone on worthy Forums or elsewhere since i came to Christ, nor have i resorted to name calling or denigrating others right to opinion. If anyone can show where i have without repentance, i will gladly repent of it.

What if God wants to reconcile you and bring glory to His name. Also do you not know that God will not leave you spouseless and will give you extra grace untill your wife returns or He takes her life, (yes God kills people i.e Annias and Saphira) leaving you free to marry without commiting adultery.

Let me clarify a few misconceptions, I have never stated that all or any Catholics are going to hell, i have only said that they share a belief with cults that they are the only true Church and that this is wrong to do so. Secondly i have not said that all Catholics agree with this or know that it is a core teaching of Catholicism, but reguardless of this Catholicism is an evil and false church that teaches practices that God condemns. Thirdly i have pointed to the testimony of an ex catholic preist of 50 yrs named Charles Chiniquoy, who among others i have read of have spoken out of torture chambers, lime pits to hide aborted babies from nuns impregnated by preists, and wholesale debauchery at the top echolons as well as the assassination of catholic opposers by Jesuit preist. If someone can prove this mans testimony false, i will retract my claims. The atrocities of the Catholic Church throughout history are well known and factual and it matters not if those in congregations are in the dark, they are supporters of these things by default if they do not take pains to know the truth. Finally if anyone wants to punch my face in know this, that whatever you do to me you do to Jesus.

Hi blessed22, my personsonal conviction is that music is for worshipping God and not for entertainment which is fleshly and carnal living. As a young Christian i immediatley dropped all my old music, but was so pleased when i found that there was "christian" rock music etc. Now many years later i can no longer enjoy even these as IMO, they too are carnal and do not lead me into worship, but rather lead me into selfish entertainment seeking, and wasting money that could be better spent. I choose now to meet with other Christians for "live" praise and worship, or just sing to the Lord as i go about my day, having no radio or CD blaring to lead me down another path.

I think Christians who refute the teaching of J.Ws and Mormons but not the Catholic church are playing the hypocrite, as their core teaching and fruits have always been wrong and vastly destructive, leading billions to hell and giving sinners a false idea of what Christianity is. Marriage is commanded of all in Genesis the only exception are those gifted such as Paul,but who also warns in scripture of those who will "forbid to marry". The majority of the human race are under obligation to "multiply" and produce "godly offspring". Incedently one of the reasons for the spread of Catholicism is the large families they traditionally had. Christians can do much good in the world by raising godly chidren who in turn do the same. Marriage is not a second rate choice, and nearly all the great preachers had wives, "two being stronger than one" and where there is unity the Lord commands a blessing".

It doesnt witness in my spirit that Jesus meant to give authority to forgive sins to the Apostles, IMO he only meant that they had authority to reject unrepentant sinners from their fellowships, such as shaking the dust off their sandals when not recieved by certain towns. When the Pharisee`s objected to Christ forgiving sins saying "God alone can forgive sin", Jesus did not refute this, He only insisted He was the God and therefore had the authority. If it were true mere humans could forgive sin against God then Jesus would have corrected them. God alone can forgive sin, but we are to forgive sins committed against us. We must go directly to God with our sins and wait until we know we are forgiven and cleansed, it is not automatic upon a rote prayers or insincere repentance.

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church? I know of those who are Christians and do attend the Catholic Church. I could care less what the Roman Catholic church thinks of me. I am concerned what Christ thinks of me. You are making a blanket statement that would include every single person that attends every single catholic church in the world. Have you met every one of them and asked them personally or can you give me testimony that every single person who attends these churches agree with all of the RC doctrines? If you answer no to either, then you should not condemn every one who enters through their doors. So you would also hold that a Mormon or a JW can be a Christian while adhereing to false beliefs and practices? You still havnt addressed the point that according to Catholicism you are not a Christian unless you are a member of theirs. It is not relevant to ask me about the individual peity of persons who go to catholic churches, i am Catholicism and its core beliefs which are wrong and anti- Christ. I too only care what Jesus thinks of me, and I considered this when including Catholics as ones who call themselves by another name. Then we are discussing two different subjects. I am talking about those who go to the church and you are talking about the RC doctrine. I do not believe in their doctrine, but do believe that there are true Christians within their walls. Sorry, but I don't fall for traps like this. Mormons believe we will be gods when we die, or when god comes here from his far away planet he is now living on. JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Neither are found in the beliefs of Catholics. I do not agree with the RC doctrine, but I do know of those in the church that do not believe in the RC doctrine either. Dave Hunt, from The Berean Call was a catholic for over 30 years and he finally left the church when he placed the RC doctrine up to scripture and realized their errors. Others are doing the same right now. If you would like to discuss the differences, we can. I have a lot of resources on this subject. You can start by reading The Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, ISBN 978-0-7642-2821-6. I have to ask, are you saying that every single person in the RC church is not a Christian? What traps?, i only ask honest questions. I have not actually said i think Catholicism is a cult, I have only said that like virtually all cults they say theyre the only true church. Now please answer me, are you happy to be thought of by Catholicism as an unbeliever destined to hell? because reguardless of what individuals believe anyone supporting the body supports the head do they not? I already answered you. I told you that I do not believe in their doctrine, so I am neither sad or happy. You see JCISGD, I was brought up in a Roman Catholic church, went to Catechism classes for many years and know today the lies that are taught. The trap was that I said that there are some in the Catholic religion that truly believe in Jesus as their savior, without works, and you then brought up that I must also believe the same about Mormons and JW's. There is Apostasy in the church today. You don't have to look beyond your own little group to see it. IF you want to discuss cults, then lets do so. If you have any particular cult you wish to discuss, then state it's name. If you are going to make blanket statements, then you are plain wrong in doing so. We seem to be speaking different languages? I started this post to show up IMO tendencies of cults, and if any church i was part of began teaching any of the points i raised i would be out of there, and would warn others of them. Equating churches who have failings with churches that claim to be the only church is IMO void. I was not wrong in lumping the Catholic church with others who claim to be the only church and you have not denied they teach this, so i think it is you who are wrong for taking me to task over factual staements. It was not my intention to single any cult out that is why a used three common names and that only in conjunction to the point being made. Your welcome to yur opinion, but I will voice my opposition to the R.C and any who support it by association, or should an ex Satanist remain in fellowship to win some?

Chapter/verse please I might be wrong but i dont think LeoX111 is upholding the belief, only stating this is R.C official teaching. Im not sure if Leo is Catholic either i dont think so, but we will have wait for his? return. Seems to have hit and run

Good point RoC re extra biblical vision etc, if you dont mind i will edit that into my OP, i was hoping for a seventh point. I disagree that i am Catholic bashing i am only stating what they believe which is that they are the only church and all others are infidels, you and me incuded. I havnt anywhere called Catholicism a cult only that they have a point in common. It is only my list of criteria and opinion that others may find helpful, but each is welcome to add their points and disagreements. I have no extra biblical vision

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church? I know of those who are Christians and do attend the Catholic Church. I could care less what the Roman Catholic church thinks of me. I am concerned what Christ thinks of me. You are making a blanket statement that would include every single person that attends every single catholic church in the world. Have you met every one of them and asked them personally or can you give me testimony that every single person who attends these churches agree with all of the RC doctrines? If you answer no to either, then you should not condemn every one who enters through their doors. So you would also hold that a Mormon or a JW can be a Christian while adhereing to false beliefs and practices? You still havnt addressed the point that according to Catholicism you are not a Christian unless you are a member of theirs. It is not relevant to ask me about the individual peity of persons who go to catholic churches, i am Catholicism and its core beliefs which are wrong and anti- Christ. I too only care what Jesus thinks of me, and I considered this when including Catholics as ones who call themselves by another name. Then we are discussing two different subjects. I am talking about those who go to the church and you are talking about the RC doctrine. I do not believe in their doctrine, but do believe that there are true Christians within their walls. Sorry, but I don't fall for traps like this. Mormons believe we will be gods when we die, or when god comes here from his far away planet he is now living on. JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Neither are found in the beliefs of Catholics. I do not agree with the RC doctrine, but I do know of those in the church that do not believe in the RC doctrine either. Dave Hunt, from The Berean Call was a catholic for over 30 years and he finally left the church when he placed the RC doctrine up to scripture and realized their errors. Others are doing the same right now. If you would like to discuss the differences, we can. I have a lot of resources on this subject. You can start by reading The Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, ISBN 978-0-7642-2821-6. I have to ask, are you saying that every single person in the RC church is not a Christian? What traps?, i only ask honest questions. I have not actually said i think Catholicism is a cult, I have only said that like virtually all cults they say theyre the only true church. Now please answer me, are you happy to be thought of by Catholicism as an unbeliever destined to hell? because reguardless of what individuals believe anyone supporting the body supports the head do they not?

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church? I know of those who are Christians and do attend the Catholic Church. I could care less what the Roman Catholic church thinks of me. I am concerned what Christ thinks of me. You are making a blanket statement that would include every single person that attends every single catholic church in the world. Have you met every one of them and asked them personally or can you give me testimony that every single person who attends these churches agree with all of the RC doctrines? If you answer no to either, then you should not condemn every one who enters through their doors. So you would also hold that a Mormon or a JW can be a Christian while adhereing to false beliefs and practices of its core teachers. You still havnt addressed the point that according to Catholicism you are not a Christian unless you are a member of theirs. It is not relevant to ask me about the individual peity of persons who go to catholic churches, i am addressing Catholicism and its core beliefs which are wrong and anti- Christ. I too only care what Jesus thinks of me, and I considered this when including Catholics as ones who call themselves by another name.

No that is not really true. They believe that if you are born a Protestant and taught in that Church you can go to heaven. But you are correct in that they believe that only their Church is the fullness of the Church established by Christ. So a Christian would be missing out by not joining them at some level. I may be wrong SMD, but i did read that top leaders among pentecostals and catholics got together to discuss their differences and signed an agreement not to evangelise each other as they agreed on much doctrine, but after that the Pope issued a statement to the catholic church, "that none were saved unless the joined the Catholic church". quote is mine. Perhaps LeoX111 can help further with proving this, i dont have dates or names but it was about 5 yrs ago maybe?

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church?

So you're basically saying that any church which isn't non-denominational could be a cult? Sorry i shouldve been clearer. No i meant that cults always have a name other than Christian. I go to a denomination that is called Apostolic, but i am not an Apostolic, i am just a Christian and i also go to any church around the world that preaches Christ crucified and the bible as inerrent. I hesitated to include Catholics as i knew it would upset some, but a Catholic will always even when "non practicing" (in blatant sin) call themselves " a Catholic". They do not say i am a Christian who goes to a catholic church, they have given themselves another name and this is what they are.

IMO the following is a formula to recognise a cult or if a church (group of people) are leaning towards becoming one. If N.Z we have a large splinter group off the mainstream pentecostal church called Destiny Church, headed by a Bishop (apostle?) Brian Tamaki. IMO this group is in grave danger of becoming a fully fledged cult, doing much harm to the cause of Christ and ruining the faith of gulliable people. Although they do not fulfill the list below they have these leanings. All quotes below are mine, or used as common expressions. 1. They claim to be the only church, and often claim unbroken succession from the apostles. Although the Church has never been eliminated entirely in any generation, many times persecution has forced her underground to survive and resurface later. Even in the time of the Apostles great persecution spread the church into all regions as they fled to safety. Whenever a true Christian fled/moved to another country, there the church soon existed. 2. They call themselves by another name other than just a Christian. i.e "im a Mormon, J.W, Catholic etc" Destiny church here promote their name heavily in all their services as a seperate people "not like those other luke warm christians" 3. They insist on uniformity and usually this shows up in a dress code or strong preference by peer pressure. 4. They are denominally selfish and exclusive of other Christian groups, and usually end up with shelter groups and communes to avoid being in the world. Alarm bells have gone off here as Destiny church begin implementing plans to build a self sufficient community for "Destiny people" in the heart of the city. 5. Their self appointed leader (not subject to the 5 fold ministry) has total authority and power, usually enjoying the lions share of the fianances. Brian Tamaki in N.Z enjoys wealth unparralled among pastors here and clearly shows a preference for the bling of the world and bears no ressembalence to the Apostle Paul. 6. The preaching will mostly be against the base (overt) sins of adultery, theft, homosexuality etc and not the covert sins of pride, coveting, selfishness etc. This appeals to mans self righteous nature, and pleases the flesh to feel "im glad im not like those sinners". To be clear all sin should be preached against untill the pastor can see he has rooted it out from among his flock, but pointing the finger at the world instead of the plank in their own eye is a common trait of cults. In hindsight i probably shouldve posted this in controvertial topics, i leave it for the moderators to decide.

According to Catholicism a person cannot be saved unless they join the Catholic church. The confessional, hail Marys, and this, are among many other unbiblical beliefs/practices that make the Catholic church in grave error.