JCISGD

Hi Jeremiah, i agree fully with the first sentence, but am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Westminister Confession, that we cannot be perfect reguardless of the Grace/Work of God in our lives?

BB this is the can of worms i spoke of in the other thread, and i have unintentionally opened it as i did not think through the implications of my topic. I was forgetting that many agree with that part of the Westminister Confession, and while i meant to show that it was right for Finney to reject it, i first have to convince of the error itself. Omission does not cover unkown obligation only that which we know beyond doubt that we should do. It cannot expect i help my neighbour untill i see his need nor if my health or abilities do not allow it. Let us therefore look into it the possibilty of obeying God completly and perfectly. Is it possible to obey our earthly father completly in all reasonable commands as long as they do not conlict with Gods. Further than this in OT times the love, servitude and loyalty shown by Joeseph as a slave and then 2nd in charge to Pharoah is shown to be perfect does it not? and that of Ruth to Naiomi is also extroidinary and yet possible. David as a shepherd boy, risked his life for sheep worth on todays market maybe $100 or so, simply out of obedience and loyalty to his father. In his early days leading up to the throne it is evident he did not sin in thought or deed, even though under sore trial and wrongful persuit of his life by king Saul. Which of the ten commandments summed up in two by Jesus, as the whole of the law are impossible to obey. And if any are, was it just and holy for God to give them upon threat of punishment for disobedience. Finally the command given carries with it the assurance of ability to keep it, or else God is a wicked tyrannt and Jesus command to be perfect as our father in heaven is also wrongfully given. One qualification is needed here, we are never commanded be holy/perfect in the same quantity as God, only in the quality of holiness. God is infinitley holy and we will only ever be finitely holy. We are not asked to do anything beyond our reasonable ability, and each person has different levels of ability and therefore each has only to do what they can and nothing more, yet nothing less either. If then any will agree that it is aleast possible to obey God fully, then we also as Finney should reject that part of the WC, yet not disqualify ourselves from service among any Presbertarian church or void our usefulness in the Kingdom.

I do not have or intend to discuss here the complete confession or the merits/demerits of the Presbertarian denomination as a whole, but to correct the false charge against Finney for rejecting it, even while a minister submitted unto them where this did not conflict with obedience to God. Here is the part in question, " No man is able, either by himself, or by ANY GRACE recieved in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God; but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed." Really? even though Christ himself commands us to be holy as our Father in heaven, and even commanded the lowly adulterous to "go and sin NO more", even if God should provide us the same grace that raised Christ from the grave, we will and must sin? Alot of people confuse unwanted thoughts and temptations with actual sin and therefore falsely think it impossible, but these things are not sin unless desired or acted on. Jesus was tempted in all things but sinned not. I have to go to work, back later to answer objections.

All i can say to that Yod is your wrong, may God enlighten you someday. There is ample biblical and historical evidence to prove beyond doubt that the Holy Spirit led the earliest of Christians to gather on the Lords day for their intimate fellowship. Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath, has already said the Sabbath is for mans good and not the other way around. Again i am not against you for keeping Saturday as your Sabbath, just dont try making me or falsely claim that man instituted the Lords day observance. I have based none of my arguement on comentaries but from the biblical proofs shown to me.

Sorry to hear that SongStress, the enemy is always looking for a way to put out the song in our heart, and this is a classic way. God also might have to wean us off the need to have help from others before we will obey him. The disciples often came to times of testing, and at one time the crowds all left following Jesus because it all just seemed too hard. Jesus asked the disciples " Will you also leave", they answered "Master where would we go you are the truth". We must determine even if all others turn away, we will still follow Jesus as our salvation depends on remaining in Him and cowards are not given entry into heaven. Im not saying that we like Peter will not find we have done something cowardly, but that we must run back to Jesus` arms to be strengthened and empowered to overcome this. How do you get past your hurt? by asking for Gods grace(power) to forgive this man, to forgive yourself for being sucked in and betrayed, and possibly for Gods forgiveness for missing His leading somewhere along the line. Be of good courage SongStress and Sing unto Him.

they are named "one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven" you won't find that....and even if you did locate some article written by a greco-christian, it isn't supported by the scriptures and that's why no one can state the case from the bible. when you call it "error", you have already judged. There is no error about which day is the Sabbath. What you do with it is between you and the Lord. Legalism is exalting oneself or one's denomination through the use of theology and rules. From God's view none of us are taller than the rest.... I disagree there Yod, the judging we are forbidden is calling another "Racca" or saying who will/wont go to heaven. The second belongs only to God and the first He would not do. We are to test the spirits and even correct and reprove each other. You say there is no such biblical support as such, and yet you have never read the thesis i allude to? i assure you it has plenty of biblical support, but its aim is not to force it as we are not to tell others what days to observe, knowing that the Holy Spirit will lead as wisdom dictates in this direction. I am not pro Sunday as Sabbath or Saturday as Sabbath, i am only contesting those who try to say it is only Saturday. It is a seventh part of each week and is 24 hours in duration, for reasons of health and opportunity to fellowship and recieve teaching etc. Jesus himself stated that the Priest were in violation of the Sabbath as they were workers in the house of the Lord, likewise modern day pastors are to have a day of rest seperate to the six days they minister or work on. Really do the Jews have no such names as they do for seasons and months? you have me at a disadvantage there as i do not know if they do or dont.

Butero i respect your even handed and reasonable approach in your posts previous, but i think you err in your advice to ElizabethT in that adultery an exception to divorce. why does Jesus command forgiveness 70 X 7 and say unforgiveness will bar us from heaven, call all divorce "hardness of heart" and point us back to Genesis stating "what God has joined together, let no man cut in two" and then contradict himself by opening up a way for divorce as opposed to a miracle of faith. Many today have believed in the face of seeming extreme odds for the return and or salvation of a wayward spouse, not to be disappointed. At the risk of seeming overbearing and some sort of authority which im not, i urge you to consider that the only exception is for those marriages that were unlawful due to Porneia/fornication, such as incest or deceit before the actual consumation of marriage, where the woman was found not to be a virgin if infact that was her claim. There is no law about marrying a non virgin(former fornicator,prostitute or or such), and it is better that they marry if they indeed they have repented and never stray or divorce.

SMD, please know that i am not attacking you or your right or reasons, which you obviously honest thought and endeavour to be just into. I think we are wrong to call a second divorce wrong if it is an act of repentance and an unlawful marriage. What do you counsel a father who marries his daughter and then comes to Christ?. He is not wrong to divorce/Annul the marriage and IMO this is not a divorce God hates, but one that He requires. I need to be careful here though as those who testify to repentence of remmarriage do not readily talk of divorce, but those i know of always halt living together as husband and wife. I admit i need more light on this point. You ask about spouses that are unwilling to reconcile?. It is my belief that God will not suffer the innocent party to go without a marriage partner permanently. Do you believe that the same God who made a donkey talk and the great emperor Nebuccaneezer eat grass, is unable to turn back a wayward spouse? Im not sure of what happens when we mess up things by marrying another instead of waiting for God, but i have heard of the wayward spouse dying and leaving way for the believing spouse to remarry. I am fully convinced from examples of God vindicating me in even small matters even before i was saved, that as long as i leave it to Him, He will achieve much quicker and better results than me. I will admit difficulty with Duet 24:1-4 in reguards to reconcilling to a spouse if we or they have remmarried. But i think we should be careful of applying rules set for Israel as a nation that God was wanting to set apart from all other nations through the use of perculiar rules and customs different from all others, if we can find NT instructions that superceed these, such as "love your enemies". Those of Moses time were under considerable less light than we who are under the gospel light and infilling of the Holy Spirit. God in those times has indicated clearly enough that He overlooked some things and treated them according to their understanding. So also we do not discount OT laws, but look to see the reason of them and if they still apply to us, such as the 10 commandments, or wether they are better fulfilled by an improved rule of action. We do not treat a rattle snake as we do a puppy, (even if some do, lol) yet neither is wrong. There just seems no way around Rom7:2+3 and the exception in Mathew 5:32 in this light and Jesus`use of genesis beginings be found to contadict. Very important also in the very same chpt vs 17,18+19 "DO NOT THINK, that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. "For assuredly, i say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the the law till it all is fulfilled."Whoever therefore breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.....v 20 " for i say unto you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven". Jesus then goes on to list the commandments not to be broken, divorce and remmarriage being among them. " whoever maries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" clearly breaking the 7th commandment. But we all know we are arguing if there is infact an exception, and knowledge of the spirit of the 7th commandment shows us that its design is to keep society and families strong and free of defilement and breakdown of authority that allows Satan access to bring all manner of vice and confusion. Therefore to divorce because of adultery and remmarry, committing adultery further does not line up with the spirit of the law, not to mention unforgiveness, hardness of heart and unbelief "denying the power of God". I urge all to seek Gods peace about it and do nothing doubtful either way, for that certainly is sin no doubt about it.

It is very refreshing to discuss the way with others such as yourself who can disagree without denigrating the other, while also being open to the possibility of improvement. I think we have an infinate need of being improved, being holy in the same quality as God but forever lacking in the quantity of Gods holiness. At this point i must give glory where it is due, first to God who alone is good and worthy of all praise, and in this case to the vessel He used to change many of errors in christian doctrine. I have been greatly influenced by the writings of Charles Finney who is much misaligned by those who listen to lies and bias spread about him. I fully acknowledge the work of the Holy Spirit in showing us truth and without whom we all would be brute beasts, and Paul said follow him as he follows Christ. Likewise there is no conflict in giving credit to those whom we have learnt off, indeed we are indebited or else be prideful i think. After reading so much of Finney`s writings i most often hear myself paraphrasing him, my mode of speech also affected. It was through Finney that i began to see why the golf between what we see in Acts and our lives today. Finney was a lawyer before being marvelously converted and almost immediatly called into ministry due i think his grasp on doctrine even before he was saved. I have found his teachings which i sometimes do injustice to, convincing and unrefutable by use of sound doctrine and use of proper and enlarged powers of reasoning. To God be the glory for the mighty revivals that he ushered in through Finney and the praying saints of their time. Many on this site are irked and even antagonised at the mention of him, but i nonetheless must thank God for him as i was a liberal christian unaware of my many errors and those of the churches i frequented.

Hi His girl, i dont know if you have your answer by the Holy Spirit yet, but i reread your post today while browsing this topic. IMO you are biblically free to marry as you were never lawfully married. I wont labour here at this point to present all the biblical proofs, except to say that the only exception given by Jesus is in Mathew and the anti D/R veiw is that this was only if a women was found not to be the virgin she claimed or if it was a unlawful marriage in the first place, i.e incest or adulterous. "Whoever divorces his wife" is talking about their first marriage as Jesus plainly taught that from the begining marriage was for life, and this is further proven by Rom 7: 2+3 which although an analogy of law and grace, it was a universal truth accepted by the then world or else Paul was faulty in using it. I have reentered the discussions on MDR as i am now more fully equipped and convinced of my opininion than when i first started here at worthy, and at one point i was almost swayed back by Foc who was pro remmarriage. The final responsibitlity is ours to seek the truth and ask the Holy Spirit to get us beyond any bais we may have. God bless you in your search, i know mine was fraught with trials for 20 yrs because i did not trust my ability to hear accurately from the Holy Spirit and relying on others i sunk further into error and dispair. I thank God for His mercy in persisting with me.

SMD i think you confuse forgiveness as doing away with the need to come back inline with the moral laws governing our personal and social health and well being. Can a murderer be forgiven if he keeps murdering? and likewise adultery committed must be repented of. The personal desires and implications of an adulterous marriage are subject to the good and well being of society and the kingdom of heaven. Therefore for the good of all a Christian would be willing to lay down their life even to death, how much more the tempory sufferings of repenting of a wrongful marriage. Is this a hard saying? Jesus told the disciples the only option after divorce was to be made a eunich, this is why they were so alarmed and cried "if thats the case it is better not to marry at all then". His yoke is easy because it is always better and more joyful to obey God, but the road is narrow. Sin always destroys and ends in the death of something, but living by and in the grace of God leads to life and life eternal. ElizabethT i urge you to seek God for the truth (not mine, although honestly believed), and also to weigh up the evidence found by googling the SPIRIT OF HOSEA website and especially the testimony of J Humphries and others.

thanks OL for pointing that out, and as you say its still an interesting topic. IMO denominations are good as they give a name to the doctrines being taught and the fruits produced, this makes it possible to know what to accept and what to avoid. "You shall know them by their fruits". We all have names by Gods design. Loving disputes are healthy, but it is sad and grieves the Holy Spirit if we get embroiled in unfruitful vindictive arguing.

yes i agree my friend, we have laid out our cases now its up to us to ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. If im wrong i want to be corrected, and i certainly dont want to be responsible for speaking error and adversly influencing another. I agree to disagree amicably and let your words to me check my honesty. God bless.

BB you open a whole other can of worms if we are to discuss Pauls treatise of progression of sinner to saint in Romans 6, 8 + 9. While i do enjoy our discussion and i have full respect for your beliefs and position, i have to point out that Gods divorce was not of the nature or moral requirements between a man and wife. God did not divorce in the sense we do, and the fact that He always keeps a remnant proves this i think? I fully agree we are not saved by keeping the law once we have broken it as "all have sinned". It is clearly foolish to also try to go back to trying to be saved by keeping this or that law, but it must be remembered that Jesus commanded we keep his commandments if we love Him. Surely it is possible to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves, so then it is atleast possible even if none do. We can but wont, God can and will. Blessings in Christ.

hi BS, how do explain that in other time zones to where early world inhabitated, it will not be the same seventh day that God rested on? The command therefore can only mean to keep a seventh part of each week as a sabbath. The word sabbath is used to describe a day set apart from and after every sixth. I would be interested in knowing the Jewish names for each day of the week if anyone on worthy can help out here. I was reading a very lengthy number of thesis on the sabbath day change and the conclusions were very clear that God did institute the day change, i will find it and post the website name, but i cant link yet so maybe someone will do that for us. Im sorry to rock your theological boat, i dont judge anyone for worshipping on saturday or any other day, just dont spread the error of seventh dayism.

BB you obviously have a honest approach and seeking heart, and i admit i could be wrong in any point. I am certainly no authority, i trust our Lord will lead us in the way as long as we are prepared to accept His answers. I do need to clarify my comments on David. I dont mean to say that David thought he had any right to do what he did, only that one sin led to another and the cover up job that ensued, did not take into account our all seeing and holy God who does not overlook sin that we have sufficient light on. I will admit my position on Ezra is part conjecture, but do not see how Ezra could command such unless it was in accordance with the known will of God. This does now make me wonder about the legality before God of believers who go against the command by Paul not to marry an unbeliever? I think the main thrust is that God sees all marriages and considers them covenants unless they were wrong to begin with, but if entered in with sincerity on by both parties, then we are not to "deal treacherously with the wife of our youth" Mal 2:14+15. Otherwise the 10 commandments are only for the Jews and we gentiles are free to break them as long as we become Christians, but they are social laws that are based on the highest good of all and God who created us expects our submission and willing worship. I too was persuaded by those who profess a second chance marriage and testify to Gods blessing even into ministry, but must also be mindful that often God is silent as with the Jews who heard no prophet for the 400 yrs before Christ. Also Satan promises the kingdoms of this world if we will bow down to him. We must also be mindful of Math 7:21-23 where even if we see miracles but are lawbreakers, Jesus will deny us entry into heaven. Again i will say, i wish there was allowance for remmariage it certainly would mean i dont have to go against the flow of the majority of present day churches, and those in my sphere of contact. God bless, Arthur.

BB, please be assured i take no offence at reasonable disagreement by anyone, nor do i put myself out there as having any authority over anyone or about this or any topic. I am pleased to lay out my case and let the truth stand on its own legs. you have raised reasonable objections, which i believe can be answered and accounted for. Im a slow typer, which accounts for the apparent bluntness of my posts, and i honestly believe that the gospel is black and white about our its doctrines.It is only Satan and the false gospel that brings confusion. King David had Uzziah killed to have his wife, and although a despicable thing to do, imo it was a panicked response and David knew he was guilty of adultery only if Bathsheba`s had a living husband, Rom 7:2+3 Shows David was no longer in adultery. IMO Gods chastening of David did infact bring true repentance, without which he surely would be in hell right now. God can only forgive upon genuine repentance and not the worldly sorrow of being caught out. I too struggled with Ezra making them put away their foreign wives even with children, but then i realised they were illegal marriages as God had expressly forbade them to marry such. Israel was to be a nation like a light on the hill to lead all the other nations to Christ, and to do that God need to seperate them from the ways of others as a perculiar people, such that the other nations would see that their gods were but false idols and Israels God was the only God. The fact that it says Moses gave them divorce, points to it being a choice made without Gods instruction and in keeping with Moses authority and charge to make laws in keeping with the social needs of those under him. IMO Mose gave them concession to divorce due to the hard and calous nature of men in those times who would treat their wives extra harshly if they had to stay with them. We who live under the gospel light are held to a much higher standard, and IMO it is tempting God to use their standard as excuse to do that which we see as wrong. I think your point about marrying her that is "put away" commits adulery, does not line up with the context of what Jesus was addressing. The Jews sought to trap Him by asking if it was lawful to divorce their wives if they had reason (" for any reason"), and Jesus` answer was in essence saying that the only reason was if there had been "Porneia"(fornication) before the marriage ceremony/consumation, or was a unlawful marriage such as incest which is also fornication. The Jewish betrothal of 2 yrs was considered binding unless there was deciet/uncleaness during that time leading up to the consumation, that is if the women said she was a virgin the man had a right to expect she be one. Joseph was going to "put away" Mary privately to protect her, but IMO it would still have been witnessed and a legal paper so that Mary could marry another who was willing to have her. It would not have been adultery for her or joseph to remmary because it was considered Porneia/fornication. Keeping in mind women were often treated as chattels and not always married for sexual intimacy, and often just extra workers unable to be bought back like a slave could be. -------------------------------- My heart goes out to you in your trial, i agree she is an unbeliever as Christ in her would not do what she is doing. We have to ask if Paul was giving allowance for divorce, why does he quote the law in Rom 7:2+3 as a irrefutable fact known to all. Paul cannot be taken to contradicting Jesus, it must be that we have misread his intentions. I wish i were wrong and i am ready always to be shown a more excellent way, but i have come from the other side of the tracks, having weighed up the mountains of arguement and having paid a heavy price for listening to man over that of the witness of the Holy Spirit. I do not judge any who are remmarried but i cannot be silent of my conviction that the Word of God calls it adultery of which none who are "adulterers will enter into heaven". I treat all equally and with respect, for whatever i do to the least i do to Jesus himself.

sorry ASC i dont know how to copy and paste, but your welcome to if you want. I have been in pentecostal churches such as AOG, Apostolic, and Elim, but also rub shoulders with conseervative christians here in NZ. Im not 100% convinced about polygamy and would not practice it. It goes against the grain of my cultural upbringing but it is something missionaries are faced with. I just dont see where it is called sin or reproved of in those living in OT times. The fact that a man must be of one wife to be in church leadership, does by default admit that polygamist were being admitted into the church without having to put away their other wives. It would be sin to practice it where it is illegal in that country, and very imprudent after becoming a christian at the least.

Hi BB and ASC, please know that i am not trying to be condemning or restrictive, i have come to know my conclusions after 20 yrs of struggle, a divorce from a women who had a husband still living, even though as a new christian i (erroneously) believed i should pray and believe for reconcilliation. Jesus has already told us the way to heaven is narrow, and the broad way ( the way of the world ) leads to hell. All sin robs kills and destroys, and it is only after following bad advice from my peers and the many pastors i sought counsel from, and much grief and unecessary struggle, that i now see where the errors lie. I have looked at all the arguements and have had 20 yrs of being personally affected, and watching the results of modern church error about divorce and remarriage, to make keeping silent morally wrong and sin for me, according to Ezk 33:6. ASC i think you see from Rom 7:2+3 that its clear that divorce while a spouse is living is always adultery? BB I will try to address your objections, which i fully respect your right to. It is not possible that Jesus was overturning Gods supposed previous allowance for divorce, as Jesus was there at the time of Moses ("before Abraham I AM" )and as we know equal to and one with the Father, only doing His will. Jesus himself said He had not come to do away with one jot of the law. He fulfiilled the law, not by reducing or altering it, but by obeying it fully and coorecting the errors that people had. One of these errors was that Moses gave allowance to divorce, but Jesus quotes genesis and refutes all divorce as from a hard heart, reiterating that "What God has joined let no man seperate". This then is the context of the clear instruction in the 4 gospels that all remarriage is adultery.(unless the marriage was unlawful in the first place, i.e incest or adulterous) Gods supposed divorce is not to be used to divorce as God does not have sexual relations or physical children from a union. God also took back His wayward bride and the prophets message was only designed to shock Israel out of their sin. What the early men of God did does not give us , who have the gospel and the very Spirit of God giving us unprecedented light, reason to follow that which God overlooked, for the reason they lived in such dark times. Polygamy is not sin, but divorcing your first wife definatley is, Mal 2:14+15 But it does limit the capacity of a christian in church service. David not only was repentant after his adultery, but God also brought a great trial on him for both the murder and the adultery because he was King. If David had then put Bathsheba away, his sin would have been compound and aggrivated by the sin of divorce. BB if your wife is your first wife and you her first husband then i urge you to stand on the word of God and call her back through prayer warfare. God will not leave you unvindicated, but do nothing to aggrivate or neglect Gods plans. He will avenge anyone wronged far quicker and surer than we can hope for or expect. " Vengence is mine says the Lord" (this does not imply wrathful judgement, but rather fair and just treatment for those wronged) Because Jesus knows every man who is not gifted in celibacy needs a wife, He will act speedily or if the wayward spouse stubbornly refuses they will either end up eating slops or be removed from this life. So stand on your authority as the head and not the tail as the believer. 1 Cor 7:16 Please also consider the evidence and testimonies on THE HOSEA PROJECT website, esp that of J Humphries. In my case i tried to believe for my wife to return but because (as i only now know, that it was adultery and she was infact another mans wife) i was fighting against the will of God. Believe me its no easy place to be found in, and if i had of listened to what i now know the Holy Spirit was telling me, it would have been oh so different.

Rev 22 :18 +19 We are warned not to add or take away from anything in the bible. James 3:1 "let not many of you become teachers, knowing we shall recieve stricter judgement". (Fiction is still designed to impart teaching or influence.) 1 Jn 4:1 " Test the spirits to see if they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" 1 Tim 1:4 " nor give heed to fables" 2 Tim 4:4 "they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned away to fables" 2 Thess 2:3 "let no one decieve you by any means, for that day will come untill the falling away comes first, and thr man of sin be revealed" Math 7:21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven" 7:23 "And then i will declare, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' = (Things against the known will of God) Rom 14:23 " But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin". If something is even doubtful it is unlawful (sin) for us unless and untill our conscience is clear. IMO The Shack is easily doubtful and thats enough because it toys with the character of the infinately holy God of the universe, who has already chosen to reveal Himself sufficiently through His word, and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Big Bert, there are no grounds for divorce in Mark, Luke or John and the only exception in Mathew is if the marriage was unlawful in the first place or the woman claimed to be a virgin but committed fornication during the betrothal period. We are allowed to seperate from an unbeliever but that does not entitle us to divorce or remmariage. I have studied all the arguements for a long time now, and we simply cannot go around the clear commands by Jesus "WHOEVER divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery and WHOEVER marries her that is divorced commits adultery" Im not trying to be harsh or condemning, all sin destroys and no unrepentant adulterers will enter into heaven. It is our duty to warn others in sin.

I SO agree with that, man. None of us are qualified to answer. I pray the OP will get treatment for the depression. Respectfully i disagree, we are not in the dark about Gods veiws and 2 Tim 3:16 indicates we have all we need in the bible for lifes descision. God is not the author of confusion, we are told that cowards will not enter into heaven and reguardless of the reasons for suicide it is cowardly and self murder. And if anyone thinks i do not not know the depths and torments of depression they would be seriously wrong. We are not always accountable for our actions when under the influence of drugs, alcohol and mental illness, but unless born that way or injured by events beyond our control then we are accountable for the choices we made leading up to our sorry state. Drunkards also will not enter into heaven, sounds harsh but its not according God in his word.

hi Adam welcome to worthy, IMO (In My Opinion) i agree that the ten commandments are not to be violated, as they are not arbitrary rules made up from thin air on the whim of God, but are laws of health and societal wellbeing. Therefore they can no more be broken without consequence than overeating. God is bound by his own character to uphold them as long as we are in this body, He will no more rescind them than call sin righteousness. Have you read my post above?, the sabbath does not mean nor is it equivalent to the seventh day, but means a seventh part of. It can be equally observed on any other day as long as it is weekly. Have you considered how someone on the opposite side of the world to Eden where the command began, must be guilty of not keeping the literal seventh day that God rested on? How do you explain that the word sabbath also applies to other seventh part observances of rest that the Jews also kept.

its a question of faith mostly, if you dont believe that Jesus is God and exists eternally ("before Abraham I AM" and they said "your not even 50 yrs old yet you claim to be older than Abraham"), then you will struggle to believe all that is in the bible. It is ok to question things but take it to God in prayer and you will be satisfied. I have no trouble with believing miraculous things that are above my understanding, before i met Jesus i neither knew where i came from nor how i got here. There is still a multitute of universes i know nothing about yet God knows every inch and every atom. I have no problem believing mankind who was created to live forever, but after the fall lived up to 1000 yrs and gradually settled to three score and ten, 70 yrs being a mean average, some such as Moses living to 120 by righteous living. Moses was recorded as having the strength and eyesight of his youth, that was because he was often in the very presence of the giver of all life. Immediatley after these times his face shone such that he wore a veil so others could look at him. God is able to do exceedlingly above ALL that we can ever hope for or even imagine.