lekh l'kha

While Hitler was preparing for war, the world pretended it wasn't happening, and wouldn't go that far. Iran has an even more dangerous leader and regime than Hitler and the Nazis, and is preparing for war against Israel and the West. Russia meanwhile, is assisting Iran.

Amazing

I would say so. A one world goverment to be effective would either have to ban religion or unite religions. Or better cause such a calamity in the world and blame it on religion and the differences in those religions so that the general public left from the aftermath of the calamity would turn it's backs on religion as a whole. The beast steps in and offers peace and safety and the whole world falls at it's feet. (except those written in the book of life) I think all this speculation about it is getting us all a little closer to a correct understanding of it?

You can do some research on the statue and it's not hard to convince yourself that it's truly is Ishtar with the seven rays of the sun shining from her head and the light of Utu in her hand. It is Babylonian Paganism. Does the U.N. have a system of marriege between religion and empire????? The green movement come from New Age Mother Earth paganism which has burried itself deep within the UN system. "Earth Charter would be an example of this New Age movement. They even have made their own Ark of Covenant. It's called the Ark of Hope. http://www.arkofhope.org/# It's a rather blasphemous piece of work, but everyone should know of its existence. Is this green movement mixed with empire??? How many new laws globally are being tied in with green thinking. The green movement is simply New Age Religion of "Mother Earth" worship. Ouch, looking at that "ark" and at those people and the words they use really caused friction with my spirit. Really ugly. I wonder if the man who donated the statue of liberty and the people who erected it actually knew what that image really represents? Or did they do it in ignorance?

Yes, agreed. Our Lord is also going to rule the world from Jerusalem, and an attack on Jerusalem by the armies of "the nations" is Satan inspiring them to do that in order that he may take over and rule the world from Jerusalem. Satan wants to thwart the plan of God, the millennial reign of Christ, that's why that region and city is so central to Bible prophecy.

Good info. Question which scriptures do use to say that Babylon the Great is a religious system? Just curious. Could not the Babylon the Great be the United Nations which is located in New York City? Rev 17:18 And the woman(aka Babylon the Great) which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. This sounds like UN to me. Don't mix Gog and Magog with wicked Israel. It makes for a bad and confusing scenario. All of these wicked people coming together at the same time is simply Gog-Satan gathering his army. Don't sweat it...THEY LOSE. Even though they are the sand of the seashore, they lose. Look at Revelation 20 and you will see how Gog-Satan gathers this army: 1. He deceives them. He tells them Christian teaching has led to every war on the planet. He tells them Jesus never died. He makes Christianity irrelevant in everyday life by making Believers think to to be involved in everyday life with their faith is wrong. He puts evolution in our schools. He brings the lie (You shall be as God) to the forefront. Deceive, deceive, deceive. He's a master at it. And the best part...he doesn't make it obvious. He makes it look like you thought it up yourself. He stays hidden in the shadows. HE doesn't parade around as some dictator 'antichrist'. He uses various people to do his dirty work. Be it Islam, liberal Christianity, or communism or humanism, they are ALL part and parcel of Magog. 2. He gathers them for war. Not literal war, although he certainly uses literal war to his advantage. No, these Magogites are gathered for ideological and spiritual battle. Once he's deceived them, Gog-Satan then sends them out into the world to fight his battle. His weapons? Abortion, euthanasia, evolution, homosexuality and the whole humanistic agenda. HOW? One of the first things in a revolt or war is to seize the centers of communication. How many Christian media centers are there in the world? Compared to what the enemy has, not many. He's seized the communications. He runs the media. And he uses it to speak and print lies. Once he's educated the leaders, he proceeds to assault the succeeding generations with the lies and it snowballs until: 3. They fill the whole earth (the broad plain). Ever feel at times like you're the only Believer left in the world where you work? At your school? In your neighborhood? Could that be because you're surrounded? THat's exactly what John says: They surround the holy city. THAT'S YOU. We are the city set on a hill. Revelation 20 is filled with opposites. Christianity gets a thousand years, Satan a little time. The heirs of Abraham were to be as the sands of the seashore, now Magog is. We are resurrected, they are burned. Old earth and former heavens are replaced with new heavens and new earth. God is exalted, Satan is abased. Resistance is NOT futile. Resist Magog. Education your own children. Every time you hear a lie spoken or see a lie in print, hit back. The more Christians try to project the past into the future, the more we play into Gog-Satan's hands. As long as we're looking fo ran 'antichrist' who doesn't exist, we're not watching what's really going on. Now there's a thing - the new heavens and the new earth get to come into being before the millennium, and nobody's been deceiving the nations since 70 A.D because Satan was bound in 70 A.D - presumably by the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, judging by some of your other posts. I think you're projecting the future into the past, BB. Never mind, the attack of the armies of antichrists against Jerusalem does tend to come in cycles - in fact the last time the leaders of the Jews were taken captive (70 A.D), took place 666 years after the armies of Nebuchadnezzar took Jehoiachin king of Judah captive. I never said the new heavens/new earth come into being before the millennium. The Scriptures tell us that they come AFTER the thousand years. The nations are being deceived NOW. While there has always been some evil individual/individuals attacking the things of God, Christianity once held such sway that such attacks were considered foolishness and Believers (along with Christian influenced unbelievers, those who led moral lives even though they didn't believe in God) kept such things in check and never allowed them to get the upper hand. It was Christ who ordered the binding of Satan, incidentally. The Romans' destruction of Jerusalem had nothing to do with the binding. It was an event that was meant to take place after the defeat of the Beast (Rome indwelled by the dragon-Satan). There were no antichrists before Jesus, by definition, it would be impossible to be an antichrist before Christ came. The BIBLICAL definition of an antichrist is far different than the one foisted upon us by modern-day prophecy teachers. 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 1Jo 4:2,3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Notice if you will, the definition of antichrist: SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH (i.e.: as a man). Now, how could an antichrist (or an army of antichrists for that matter) attack Jerusalem before the TRUE Christ ever set foot on the world scene? Answer: It can't. It never happened. It will never happen. They most definitely were Biblical types of the antichrist, or the antichrist "beast". The way we know that Satan has been bound is when Satan cannot deceive the nations any longer. The millennium hasn't come before Satan has been bound and is unable to deceive the nations. You can turn that into wet clay/putty and try press it into your eschatological mold all you like, but it just don't fit.

Interesting that you brought that up. Some say that Statue of Liberty is a replica of Babylonian goddess "Ishtar" again located in NYC. Why cant the UN be considered a harlot??? This harlot was said to rule the kings of the earth. The harlot is a political authority. I don't see this as a religious system but a powerful governing system such as the United Nations council. We see more and more power being given to the UN even in by our own country. A harlot by definition is a women who sleeps around for money. How often does the UN make back room deals for political leaders for money or power??? The United Nations could be the harlot which the beasts rides upon. Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Just me speculating That's also a good point. I believe the Statue of Liberty is indeed a replica of the Babylonian goddess "Ishtar", and have believed that for a long time. But does the U.N have a system which is a marriage between religion and "empire"? (Possibly - because the U.N above all pushes for equality of all "faiths".) But we're still speculating

How could the Ottoman empire be the seventh since there was no Israel? All the other heads are tied directly to the nation of Israel. Good point. But the Ottoman Empire, like the Eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empire before it (and the Roman Empire before that) ruled over the Holy land and Jerusalem. Then it was Britain's turn for "a short time" (1917 to 1948). The previous two empires (before Britain) each ruled over the Holy land and Jerusalem for hundreds of years. "And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled." (Luk 21:24). Bible prophecy is not about what happens to the United States and who does what to it. Bible prophecy is about what happens to Israel/Jerusalem and who does what to it. Only the nations that attacked and will attack Israel/Jerusalem are mentioned in Bible prophecy. But even having said all that, I'm still only speculating about the identity of the seventh empire (and the 8th "king").

Good info. Question which scriptures do use to say that Babylon the Great is a religious system? Just curious. Could not the Babylon the Great be the United Nations which is located in New York City? Rev 17:18 And the woman(aka Babylon the Great) which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. This sounds like UN to me. Don't mix Gog and Magog with wicked Israel. It makes for a bad and confusing scenario. All of these wicked people coming together at the same time is simply Gog-Satan gathering his army. Don't sweat it...THEY LOSE. Even though they are the sand of the seashore, they lose. Look at Revelation 20 and you will see how Gog-Satan gathers this army: 1. He deceives them. He tells them Christian teaching has led to every war on the planet. He tells them Jesus never died. He makes Christianity irrelevant in everyday life by making Believers think to to be involved in everyday life with their faith is wrong. He puts evolution in our schools. He brings the lie (You shall be as God) to the forefront. Deceive, deceive, deceive. He's a master at it. And the best part...he doesn't make it obvious. He makes it look like you thought it up yourself. He stays hidden in the shadows. HE doesn't parade around as some dictator 'antichrist'. He uses various people to do his dirty work. Be it Islam, liberal Christianity, or communism or humanism, they are ALL part and parcel of Magog. 2. He gathers them for war. Not literal war, although he certainly uses literal war to his advantage. No, these Magogites are gathered for ideological and spiritual battle. Once he's deceived them, Gog-Satan then sends them out into the world to fight his battle. His weapons? Abortion, euthanasia, evolution, homosexuality and the whole humanistic agenda. HOW? One of the first things in a revolt or war is to seize the centers of communication. How many Christian media centers are there in the world? Compared to what the enemy has, not many. He's seized the communications. He runs the media. And he uses it to speak and print lies. Once he's educated the leaders, he proceeds to assault the succeeding generations with the lies and it snowballs until: 3. They fill the whole earth (the broad plain). Ever feel at times like you're the only Believer left in the world where you work? At your school? In your neighborhood? Could that be because you're surrounded? THat's exactly what John says: They surround the holy city. THAT'S YOU. We are the city set on a hill. Revelation 20 is filled with opposites. Christianity gets a thousand years, Satan a little time. The heirs of Abraham were to be as the sands of the seashore, now Magog is. We are resurrected, they are burned. Old earth and former heavens are replaced with new heavens and new earth. God is exalted, Satan is abased. Resistance is NOT futile. Resist Magog. Education your own children. Every time you hear a lie spoken or see a lie in print, hit back. The more Christians try to project the past into the future, the more we play into Gog-Satan's hands. As long as we're looking fo ran 'antichrist' who doesn't exist, we're not watching what's really going on. Now there's a thing - the new heavens and the new earth get to come into being before the millennium, and nobody's been deceiving the nations since 70 A.D because Satan was bound in 70 A.D - presumably by the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, judging by some of your other posts. I think you're projecting the future into the past, BB. Never mind, the attack of the armies of antichrists against Jerusalem does tend to come in cycles - in fact the last time the leaders of the Jews were taken captive (70 A.D), took place 666 years after the armies of Nebuchadnezzar took Jehoiachin king of Judah captive.

Good info. Question which scriptures do use to say that Babylon the Great is a religious system? Just curious. Could not the Babylon the Great be the United Nations which is located in New York City? Rev 17:18 And the woman(aka Babylon the Great) which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. This sounds like UN to me. Well let's put it this way, the Hebrew word for "the woman" is Ishah and "seed" is Zera. In ancient Chaldean/Babylonian, the word for "the woman" was Ishtar and "seed" was Zero. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman (Ishah/Ishtar), and between your seed (Zera/Zero) and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." (Gen 3:15) Ancient Hebrew/Chaldean (Babylonian) were dialects of the same ancient language (known in history as "Akkadian"). Ishtar was the Great Babylonian mother-goddess, depicted in three different ways: often with a golden cup in her hand, often with a baby child at her breast, and often riding on a bull. The worship of Ishtar spread throughout the world with the dispersion from Babel, taking on different forms and different names. The cup we drink represents...? What's in the cup of "Babylon the Great"? What is she sitting on - aside from many waters? Beast = political authority. Can a political authority be called a harlot? Can the U.N be called a harlot? Don't know, maybe. But just speculating.

Iran offers setting up economic bloc http://www.worthychristianforums.com/index.php?/topic/127399-wn-iran-offers-setting-up-economic-bloc-tehran-times/ "Iran is ready to hold a meeting with economy ministers of Syria, Iraq, and Turkey to discuss setting up an economic bloc in the region, the Iranian Minister of Economic Affairs and Finance stated...." Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Iran - the rising again of the Ottoman-Turk empire - the head of the beast that was mortally wounded by the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk empire by the allied forces in WWI. The mortal wound is healing. "Like a leopard, a bear, and a lion" (Rev.13: 2; Dan.7: 3-6). Speculative, but a speculation with a little bit of Biblical backing, considering it's that region in the world which is mentioned in Bible prophecy, along with the Roman Empire. The seventh empire might have been the Ottoman Turk Empire, and the 8th will rise out of the bottomless pit - the region of Babylon - the ancient Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, which will incorporate not only what it incorporated before ( the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire and pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc), but also this time, the Western Roman Empire. "Babylon the Great" is the religious system which is carried by the beast. Ask the Pope: "Do Muslims, Christians and Jews worship the same God - the God of Abraham/Ibrahim?" His answer will be "Yes." (he's already said so). Ask the Prime Minister of Britain the same question. "Yes." Ask Pres Obama the same question. "Yes". Ask the E.U leaders. "Yes". Ask most Islamic leaders. "Yes." Ask the president of South Africa. "Yes." Ask the Prime ministers of Australia and New Zealand. "Yes." Do unbelieving Jews and Christians serve the same God? Ask Jesus: "You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me." (Joh 8:44-45) "Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (Rev 3:9) "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." (Mat 15:7-8) Judaism was created by the very people Jesus called "hypocrites" "the sons of the devil" and those "who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" (mind your heads everyone, rocks are coming my way - DUCK!) Do Muslims, Christians and Jews serve the same God? Is the God of Judaism the God of Abraham? Is the God of Islam the God of Abraham? 80% of indigenous Europeans are Roman Catholic. It took 3 centuries for Christianity to "invade" the Roman Empire - but there were no cars, trains and planes, there was no Internet and no T.V or radio. There were no religious magazines and newspapers. How long has it taken Islam to "invade" the West? What religion is likely to be carried by a Euro-Arab Middle-Eastern "beast"? And what does such an empire look like, population/demographically speaking? "And as to that which you saw: the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron; the kingdom shall be divided. But there shall be in it the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. And as you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mix themselves with the seed of men. But they shall not cling to one another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure." (Dan 2:41-45) "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth." (Rev 18:24). In whom was the blood of prophets found? Ask Jesus: "... so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar." (Mat 23:35) In whom can the blood of millions of saints be found since 300 A.D? 1. The Roman Catholic Church. 2. Islam. Who answers "yes" to the question, "Do Muslims, Jews and Christians serve the same God"? All the political leaders of West and the Middle East - most of the religious leaders of Islam and Judaism, the Pope and many other Christian leaders. Let us (10 kings) destroy these three religions, because they cannot live in harmony, and then we will give our thrones to the beast and have real unity. Let us build an image to the beast in their place, and force all peoples, nations, tribes and tongues to worship it, by preventing all human beings from being able to buy or sell unless they worship the beast or his image. Just speculating.

Iran offers setting up economic bloc http://www.worthychristianforums.com/index.php?/topic/127399-wn-iran-offers-setting-up-economic-bloc-tehran-times/ "Iran is ready to hold a meeting with economy ministers of Syria, Iraq, and Turkey to discuss setting up an economic bloc in the region, the Iranian Minister of Economic Affairs and Finance stated...." Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Iran - the rising again of the Ottoman-Turk empire - the head of the beast that was mortally wounded by the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk empire by the allied forces in WWI. The mortal wound is healing. "Like a leopard, a bear, and a lion" (Rev.13: 2; Dan.7: 3-6). Speculative, but a speculation with a little bit of Biblical backing, considering it's that region in the world which is mentioned in Bible prophecy, along with the Roman Empire. The seventh empire might have been the Ottoman Turk Empire, and the 8th will rise out of the bottomless pit - the region of Babylon - the ancient Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, which will incorporate not only what it incorporated before ( the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire and pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc), but also this time, the Western Roman Empire.

Christians should feel guilty and remorseful when the they sin. Its Christians that feel no guilt or remorse when they sin that I worry about. Yes God is quick to forgive if we confess and repent. Part of being repentant is showing remorse and guilt for what you did. Those who continue in sin with no guilt or remorse have no respect or fear of God. Which means they aren't saved. What people are getting at Bible2 is that your theology negates the blood of Christ if one's salvation can be lost. The way you believe, a man like David would be lost. A man like Abraham would be lost. Perhaps you are not explaining something quite right? How does one become a Christian? By believing in Jesus Christ and His blood that was shed for my sins. The key words are "believe"; "Jesus Christ" and "his blood". "Believe" and "faith" are synonymous. That's the faith that overcomes the world, the flesh and the devil: "For everything that has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1Jn 5:4-5) "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Rev 2:11) "My sin" has nothing to do with the question "How does one become a Christian?", but everything to do with the words "His blood" and "His sanctifying work". Only the words "Believe", "Jesus Christ" and "His blood" answer the question "How does one become a Christian?" There is a very, very thin line between licentiousness and legalism. But God knows the heart of each and every individual. We argue about this for naught.

That's nothing but "works righteousness" and it's an abomination to God. That's like giving a friend a gift and then telling them they can only keep it if they wash your car every week for life. God says He gives us eternal life as a free gift. If that gift can be taken away: 1) It was never actually a gift. 2) It was never eternal. 3) It was never free. Philippians 1:6 says "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus" Meaning Jesus started the santification process at salvation and HE (not YOU) will continue it until it is completed at His coming. It's HIS works, not YOURS. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says: "HE will keep you strong to the END, so that you will be blameless on the Day of our lord Jesus Christ." Again, HE (Jesus) is our strength, not YOURSELF. And HE (Jesus) will keep us strong until the END - not YOURSELF. And as far as God is concerned, we are already seated with Christ in Heaven: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6) And the Bible says our inheritance can NEVER perish and is kept for us in Heaven. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that CAN NEVER PERISH, spoil or fade - KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5) And that inheritance is GUARANTEED with the SEAL of the Holy Spirit: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14) "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30) As we are sealed for the day of redemption (Christ's second coming) if believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but ONLY to the day of sinning, apostacy, or disbelief. In John 5:24 Jesus says: "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death into life." YOU say they CAN come into judgment and lose eternal life. Whatever God does is forever (Eccl. 3:14). Salvation is initiated by God (John 15:16, Romans 8:29-30). We were predestined by Him for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5). Would God choose us, mark us out, call us into salvation and then abandon us? No. God's salvation is ETERNAL. No sin, no failure, or weakness on our part can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:35-39). Our problem before God before we were saved was a legal one. we had broken God's laws by our sin and had thus incurred the Law's righteous judgment. According to the Law of God, where transgression of the Law is, death must take place (Romans 6:23). It is not a matter of God loving us, overlooking our sins and forgetting about the Law's judgment. If God were to do this, His very Throne would topple. God is bound by His own Law to judge sin. Since God desired to save us and since we could not pay the debt ourselves, He, in His mercy, decided to do it Himself. Jesus died that substitutionary death on the cross to pay that sin debt. His death, being reckoned by God AS OURS, was acceptable to God. Now when we believe in Christ, His death is counted in God's sight AS OUR OWN. Thus, our debt of sin is righteously paid, and we are saved. Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ purchased in His own blood? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Since the debt was FULLY PAID, for God to demand it AGAIN from us would be unrighteous! The same righteousness which formerly called for our condemnation now calls for our justification. Thus, the Bible declares that when God saves us, He shows forth His righteousness (Romans 1:16-17; 3:25-26). When we were saved, we not only received something, we also became something. We became children of God, born of his eternal life (John 1:12-13). A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life that has been imparted. Although the child may misbehave, the child is still the father's. In the same way we are God's children. Although we have many weaknesses and may require His discipline, our sins and weaknesses cannot change the fact that we are His children. The life we received by our second birth is the ETERNAL life, the INDESTRUCTIBLE life, the LIFE OF GOD, the life that can NEVER die, Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born." Christ himself PROMISED to keep us, uphold us and NEVER leave us. Christ NEVER fails to accomplish what He pledges. Jesus said, "Him who comes to me I SHALL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT" (John 6:37). YOU say if we sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to repent of a sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to do good works, we are "cast out." If what YOU say is true, then Jesus is a LIAR. The Bible says: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." (2 Timothy 1:12). You say it is by works that keeps us saved - the Bible says it is JESUS who keeps us saved. To say it is we ourselves that maintain our salvation is to strip God of glory and lessons His remarkable offering of grace and mercy. All of the righteousness of Christ has been put into our accounts. God always looks at us through the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us. (The formal doctrine is called the "imputation of the righteousness of Christ). For a believer to somehow lose his salvation would demand a TOTAL reversal and an undoing of ALL the proceding works of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When the Father looks upon us, He sees His son Jesus. That's why we can be called: Holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12) Righteous (Romans 3:22) Perfect (Hebrews 10:14) Saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2) A citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20) And we have: NO condemnation (Romans 8:1) NO separation from God's love (Romans 8:39) SURE hope of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22) A PROMISE of life (2 Timothy 1:1) Words of eternal life (John 6:68) You are simply trying to EARN the maintaining of salvation by works. You need to open yourself up to the truth that it is JESUS ALONE who will be glorified for keeping you saved - not Jesus AND you. God will NOT share the credit with you. I see. So, all of you sins were not covered by the blood and forgiven at the cross? That's like saying you keep repenting over and over your whole life, but in the split second before you get run over by a truck and killed you have a sinful thought and go straight to hell. Is THAT what you are saying? The Bible says ALL of our sins (not just the ones we committed before we were saved) have been forgiven. Past, present and future. "The blood of Jesus Christ, God's son, cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) "But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you HOLY in His sight, WITHOUT BLEMISH and FREE FROM ACCUSATION" (Colossians 1:22). "Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) When a person becomes a Christian, ALL his sins have been forgiven and PAID IN FULL by Christ. There remains NO further payment that can be made for them, NO further expiation required. It's a good thing Paul did not die at the moment he wrote: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin" (Romans 7:14-25). Notice he says the things "that I DO' not the things that he DID. Meaning, he still did them. Good thing Paul didn't have a heart attack at that moment, by your reasoning, he would have ended up in hell. Heck, Paul even called himself the chief of sinners. "...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I AM the worst!" (1 Timothy 1:15) Notice he said "I am" not I was." Once again, you are simply trying to earn your salvation. Either Jesus forgave all of our sins, put them under the blood and forgot them (Hebrews 10:17) removing them as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12) and cast ALL of them into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19) or He didn't. If He didn't, I sure hope you don't ever forget a single sin you've committed and failed to repent of before you die. Or die in the middle of committing a sin. Wyguy, I sure would be happy to be taken up with you to heaven in a pre-trib rapture. And if I'm ever sitting in one of "the antichrist's concentration camps" waiting to be beheaded, I sure hope you'll be sitting near me reminding me of what you just said here But don't tell me I will be taken up before the trib, I sill won't believe you

But the thing is, regardless of what the future of the U.S is, only the following regions of the world are mentioned in Bible prophecy: 1. Egypt. 2. Assyrian Empire. 3. Babylonian Empire. 4. Medo-Persian Empire. 5. Greek Empire. 6. Roman Empire. 7. ??? Empire. 8. "the beast from the bottomless pit who is "of the first 7" empires. Bible prophecy singles out Egypt and Elam (Persia/Iran) and Edom (Syria/Jordan) etc. Dan.2 and 7 singles out the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman Empires. The Medo-Persian Empire incorporated modern-day Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan - so did the Islamic Ottoman-Turk Empire when it was at its height. These empires also all incorporated North Africa. Rev.13:2 compared with Daniel 7 tells us that the 8th empire will be a combination of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek Empires; and Daniel 2 and 7 tell us that it will also incorporate the former Western half of the Roman Empire. Those areas were "the whole world" to the Bible's prophets. NOT mentioned in Bible prophecy are the following regions of the world: 1. India and China. 2. South-East Asia, the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand. 3. North, South and Central America. 4. Sub-Saharan Africa. 5. Indian Ocean and Pacific islands. The whore of Revelation is intimately linked to the first seven empires, and the U.S.A is in a region of the world that never was part of those empires and is not mentioned in Bible prophecy. So the way I still see it, we can speculate on the future of the U.S.A, but the bottom line is, the U.S.A is nevertheless not mentioned in Bible prophecy. There may be many similarities in the mind of many Christians between the way the U.S.A behaves and the way the Babylonian Empire and all other empires behaved, but that's where the similarity ends, because the U.S.A is a superpower whose super-power status quite possibly (and even probably) is waxing old - for a brief moment in time its had its glory-days, but summer (it would seem) is over. There are definitely similarities in certain respects between the pride of empires and the U.S.A - for example, I supported (I'm not American) but I supported the U.S invasion of Iraq (although with hindsight I now think it was a huge mistake and America should have saved its fire-power for Iran), but I was nevertheless appalled by the words "Operation shock and Awe" - it reminded me too much of The Great and awesome days of the LORD" and I was sure that that is where full-of-pride military men and politicians had got it from. "America," I thought, "is relying too much on its military might instead of on God". It had me genuinely worried. Then one day I saw Pres Bush say "Islam is a great faith", and I thought, "Mr. Bush, Jesus can hear you, you're looking for trouble, no matter how politically expedient you think such a statement may be". There are lots of statements like that which came out of the mouths of America's leaders from time to time which showed me that they had developed a false sense of security and forgotten that it is God who makes nations rise up and become great and it's God who destroys those same nations. Millions of American Christians have not forgotten that, but too many of America's leaders and secular Americans seem to have forgotten. So I know why you may think America could be likened to "Babylon the Great". But America is not the only nation guilty of the things I mentioned above - most nations are also guilty of what America is guilty of, the only difference being that America is one of three superpowers. But "Babylon the Great" is a religious system in union with and empire - a marriage between religion and state, such as it was in the (Roman Catholic) Holy Roman Empire. And Babylon the Great is linked to the first seven kingdoms; and the first seven kingdoms do not incorporate the United States. So whatever we can speculate about the future of the U.S, we cannot link that future with anything written in the book of Revelation, because in this regard, America is no different from Australia, for example. Amen!

Sorry for the delayed reply. Yes, the ten kings war against the whore does destroy the seat of the beast. Since I am persuaded the 8th which goes into destruction is America, the seat of the beast would be the District of Columbia. I found it to be somewhat prophetic that when President G.W. Bush pushed his father’s vision of “land for peace” upon Israel that the space shuttle Columbia exploded of Palestine Texas. This was the first time there was an Israeli on board, and here Columbia becomes a shooting star for all the world to see, a prophetic sign of the judgment reserved for the beast . . . as you duly noted in your submittal of Rev 16:10. Again, I believe America is the eight and the whore the pseudo religious system which has fought against the real religion which worships God in spirit and truth. To me it is not hard to see how the apostate “Christian” religious system in America has render the gospel, which is not the gospel but rather a perversion there of ineffective to enable “saint” to live godly. However, that is but a small facet of the overall union of the whore, or mother of harlots with the beast. The leaders of America have embraced any religion with zeal . . . so long as it isn’t the truth of the Gospel itself. They are fornicating with them making themselves virtually “one flesh” with the mother of harlots whereby her seat is the seat of the government itself in the end. They embrace doctrines of devils, fables, while calling those who hold forth the righteous percepts of God’s holy words possible treats and terrorists. Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: 23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! 24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. I will still submit that the merging of power one hour with the beast is but a very short term agreement of the EU to have a common currency with America in an attempt to offset China steadily growing economic power and influence. One thing that has always brought about God’s judgment on nations is when they exercise themselves beyond their lawful (God’s established) realm of influence. Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land. Can any say that America has not gone beyond its lawful realm of influence on other nations? Have we not required of Israel the parting of God’s land? I understand your points. But the E.U and the U.N (representing all nations) have required the same. And many, many nations are guilty of the same things you state America is guilty of with regards to their courting of a false gospel and false religions and suppression of the true gospel. With regard to Europe, one European "Jihad watch" group says, "The European Union acts secretly, with the European people being deceived about its development. Democracy is being deliberately removed, the latest example being the Lisbon treaty. However, the plan goes much further with an ultimate goal of being a European-Arabian super-state, incorporating Muslim countries of north Africa and the Middle East in the European Union. This is already initiated with the signing of the Barcelona treaty in 95 by the EU and nine north African states, and it became effective the first of January, 2010 - this year. It is also known as the Euro-Mediterranean co-operation. In return for some European control of oil resources, Muslim countries will have unfettered access to technology and movement of people into Europe. The price Europeans will have to pay is the introduction of sharia law and removal of democracy." After the end of WWII, General Charles de Gaulle of France envisioned a strong and united Europe as a counter-weight to American supremacy, which he loathed. In order to do achieve this goal, he had to begin a decades-long process of signing (and convince European Community nations to sign) a host of economic, political, social and military agreements with the Arab-League nations in order to create a Euro-Arab trade block. This is why there are so many Muslims in Europe today. History text books at European universities were changed to placate Arab-Muslim sensitivities for example. Muslim couples living in British and European cities have on average 8 children per couple. Indigenous Brits and Europeans have on average 1,8 children per couple. Already there are concerns that within the next 20 years huge parts of European countries will have a majority of Islamic voters. I don't have to say more. I think you get the picture. America is not the only superpower in the world and America is not alone with regards to the sins you mention in your post. Maybe America will be part of a Euro-Arab empire one day, but I don't think America will dominate such an empire. It will be dominated from the region of ancient Babylon. It could be that the whore is Islam, and the ten regional rulers will eventually fight against Islam, destroying the throne of the Euro-Arab empire. But you could be right, not saying you're wrong. Just saying that I don't know who exactly Babylon the Great is yet, neither do I know what the 8th kingdom is going to look like.

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Here's a hypothetical (but very plausible) 2011 scenario: 1. No American troops in Iraq. 2. The dollar and the Euro collapse and Europe, North America, South America, Australia & New Zealand enter into a great depression that makes the great depression of the 1920's look like a feast. America withdraws all troops from Afghanistan. 3. Iran, in alliance with Turkey and Syria, invades Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon and annexes them, creating a new Ottoman-Turk empire which "heals the wound to one of the beast's heads" (which was "mortally wounded" in the first world war by the defeat of the Ottoman Turk Empire). 4. Europe succumbs to Sharia law and joins the new empire. 5. All those nations, in alliance with Russia, attack Jerusalem. I'm not saying those things are going to happen. But I am saying they could happen. We can't work out how Bible prophecy is going to unravel because we can't know what big changes are going to happen tomorrow - how many of us thought the Berlin wall was going to be thrown open 1 year before it was? How many of us knew that communism would collapse in Eastern Europe 2 years before it did? We have to concentrate on the symbolism of the Old Testament - because the Revelation uses Old Testament symbolism and ancient symbolism, at that. Babylon the Great is a world religious system, which is married to a political system. Individual nations today such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and many Islamic nations have such a system, but at the moment the West no longer has such a system. No-one knows what sort of dramatic changes can happen within the next 5 years or 4 years or 2 years or 1 year in this world we live in. We will identify the 8th kingdom/empire with hindsight, when it's upon us. When it's upon us, then we will know "that's it!".

The same place Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Jamaica, .... fit in end time prophecy. America's a great place and Americans are great people, but because of your 1945-2010 super-power status you can't envision that the U.S is just "one of the nations". Why should America be in end-time prophecy any more than Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Canada, South Africa? "And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it." (Zec 12:3) Is Australia singled out there? How about New Zealand? How about Canada, Kenya, Malaysia, Japan? "The United States doesn't fit in anywhere in Bible prophecy!" But why be shocked? There are nations singled out in Bible prophecy - the ancient nations of Egypt, Syria (Damascus) and the ancient region of "Mount Seir" (modern day Syria and Jordan, which includes Elam and Edom which are also singled out in Bible prophecy). Even "the prince of Persia" is mentioned (Iran). And the Roman Empire is also mentioned. But no, no other nations are mentioned in Bible prophecy. They are part of "the nations".

Being so close to the rapture means that we are also very close to the time when the beast and his armies will persecute the saints, therefore "And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up. And it was sweet as honey in my mouth, and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter." (Rev 10:10). Onelight's post shows something about the structure of Mat.24, because verse 9 starts with "Then" (Greek: toteh, "the time of"), and the same word is found 8 times from verse 9 to verse 30, and all the sentences from verse 9 to verse 31 is joined together with the words "and", "but", "for", "therefore". This shows that the great tribulation mentioned in verse 21 is the same tribulation which the Lord began to mention in verse 9: "... this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come. Then (toteh, "the time of") they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. for then shall be great tribulation (elaborating on the tribulation mentioned in verse 9), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." The fact that all the sentences from verse 9 to verse 31 are joined together by the words "and" "But" "for" and "therefore" demands that we understand that this is speaking about the same tribulation - and we have a "second witness" to this fact by the word "then" (toteh, "the time of") beginning in verse 9 and being used 8 times from verse 9 to verse 30. The clear distinction of Mat 24 is: 1. Intoduction (verse 1-3) 2. Birth-pains (verses 4-8). 3. "The time of" ("Then" or Greek "toteh") (verses 9-31). "Tribulation" in the N.T = what happens to the saints at the hand of the beast and his armies (political authorities of this world). "Wrath" = what happens to the world when God finally judges it through Christ - after the great tribulation. "And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Rev 13:7) Then (after the birth-pains) they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Mat 24:9) "I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Dan 7:21-22) "And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11:3) "And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months." (Rev 13:5) The 7th trumpet says, "And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Rev 11:15) It's in between the sounding of the 6th and 7th trumpets that John says, "And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up. And it was sweet as honey in my mouth, and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter." (Rev 10:10) Yes, the rapture is near - but so is the great tribulation. Pharaoh afflicted the Israelites before they were delivered by God's judgment of Pharaoh and his armies.

Well, he said Scripture, so.... Good points! I'm waiting to see if our brother Bold Believer is going to bring in an ad-hoc theory now to explain how the 10 kings destroyed Jerusalem before they came into existence, since the 10 kingdoms BB refers to only came into existence after the destruction of Jerusalem!

The Scripture certainly did. Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem and broke into 10 kingdoms, kingdoms which eventually became Christian nations. When an empire falls, I'd say that's an economic calamity, whether or not history records it as such. Where does it state in Scripture that Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem? I think BB is talking about history, Neb. But the Roman Empire, though it might have broken up into 10 kingdoms after the fall of Jerusalem, was not defeated and did not "go into perdition". It continued to exist and in the 4th century, broke up into the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire after emperor Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople (present day Istanbul in Turkey). The Eastern Roman Empire is called "the Byzantine Empire" only because that's what history now calls it, but by its contemporaries the Byzantine Empire was not known as such - it was known simply as the Eastern Roman Empire. Bold Believer, The thing (about the destruction of "Babylon the great") is that Rev.17:16 says it's the 10 kings that destroy her. So if the 10 kingdoms only came into being in the Roman Empire after the destruction of Jerusalem, then Jerusalem could not have been Babylon the Great, and you will now have to develop an ad-hoc theory to explain the problem in your theory, which is what science often does when scientists discover a fact which negates an original theory. There are so many ad-hoc theories to explain away the facts which negate macro-evolution that it's unbelievable, no pun intended

In fact, it's becoming glaringly obvious that this is where Armageddon starts.

Yes, unfortunately. Unless America does something about it together with Israel. But the chances of that happening are slim. Taking out Iran's nuclear facilities will be very, very costly, and it can lead to a bigger war than just a war against one nation - because Syria, Iran and Hezbollah will attack Israel, guaranteed. They've said so over and over and got themselves ready to do just that. Bible prophecy states that one day Damascus will become a heap of ruins. Not too difficult to see why? But the U.S can't afford such a war right now - neither is the U.S in the right kind of financial position, nor is it politically expedient for the U.S to enter into such a war against Iran, because public opinion in most of the world is extremely anti- the invasion of Iraq and presence of U.S and British troops in Iraq, anti- the Israeli blockade of Gaza and Israeli "occupation of Palestinian territory". And there's also the Russian reaction to an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities that the media never mentions - Russia is making a lot of money helping Iran build up its nuclear facilities (and ability to produce nuclear arms), and Russia signed a pact or some sort of agreement with the Black Sea states which pretty much makes Russia responsible to help Iran if Iran is attacked. Israel is aware that the danger in striking Iran is the risk of causing a much greater war than a war of one nation against one other other nation.

Iran has long-range missiles that can reach Israel, and missiles are lined up all along the Israeli/Syrian border inside Syria, ready to strike Israeli towns and cities. Also a massive arms build-up in Southern Lebanon. Israel will be attacked from all sides if Israel strikes Iran. The Iranians, Syrians and Hezbollah have been preparing for such a strike for a long time.