drossfurnace

interesting. of course, Adam and Eve lived a very long time and had a very many children... But as for the claim there was never a primal couple....well, i'll stick to the Bible ANY DAY over pretty much most of the science that's out there. Science is always changing. But the Word of God remains the same... i mean, we dont even know what DNA from Adam and Eve would look like, considering they were created PRE-FALL.... but i imagine it would be something all together different from any post fall DNA. Shoot, we dont even know how to approach the topic in terms of garden of eden existence........ WOULD they have passable DNA? If there was no fall - would there have really been something different from each parent to pass to the children? Was it like God created Adam with blue eyes and Eve with brown eyes? Did one of them have a "bent finger" or slight defect to pass on? - (the answer is no) Would their children , without the Fall, have been EXACT replicas of Adam and EXACT replicas of Eve? Or, assuming Adam and Eve had full dominion over their own bodies (unlike us with our sin nature) - and also full dominion over the earth - Could they have willfully chosen the attributes of their own children and therefore bypassed any scientific notions of DNA as the biological trump card? Would will (soul?) have triumphed DNA (flesh?)? Its questions like these, although some may be less pertinent than others, that scientists (even many "christian" ones) fail to take into account. If we go strictly by the Book and THEN work our way back to the science, like I believe i just did, we see how such scientific observation/conclusion becomes a lot less "infallible." Maybe nothing i said was right, but its sure an issue worthy of further debate (unlike the scientists with their "solid" conclusions that dont take these Bible issues into account).

then why reply?

it sure seems so to me. John 5:36-38 36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. sure seems contextual to me... but john 1:18 proves a little more tricky... more in the respect of SEEING the Father rather than hearing 18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (nasb) 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (niv) 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (kjv) this all seems to fly in the face of rev 5:1 & 5:7 1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. (((((the one who took the scroll being the lamb/Jesus)))) I guess my question is: It must be possible to SEE the Father, right? bc it seems like John in Revelation saw Him (albeit not face to face) .... Ezekiel also saw Him apparently, and i think probably Isaiah also during the "coal to lips" episode..................... thoughts?

well they also pat eachother on the butt "willy nilly" sooo....................

heh. what about places like europe and south america where the custom is to kiss everybody on the cheek when you meet them? im 30, male, and married. you go in for the handshake 90% of the time, hug if there's no danger, and only kiss the old ladies

i agree the man in ezekiel was an angel.... I disagree that he was being shown new jerusalem. he was obviously being shown a physical temple. but in new jerusalem there is no physical temple............. Rev 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. or at least thats how i understand it.......

they'll learn the hard way...... all that stuff can ever bring is death. lets pray they get the revelation of truth huh?

hey thats great stuff. thanks for posting it. im gonna favorite the link/source you cited. and for the other guy - the Lord's supper was actually the passover meal... you could probably argue when he says that everytime we break this bread and drink this cup he was referring to everytime we eat the passover meal we're to be reminded that it's him. im not gonna stick to my guns too hard on that, but it seems plausible on the fly. Matt 26:17 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. but I have a question. If Christ (and i know he's the paschal lamb) ATE the passover the night before he died - doesn't that mean the priests' sacrificial lambs were already slain in teh temple the day before Christ was actually killed? theyd already eaten the passover lambs, no? or passover was a several day feast, was it not??? i think im just a bit confused so if somebody could help me out .. question 2: why break bread (He's the bread of life) but why break bread and say be reminded of Him instead of break the meat at the table (the lamb?).... i think im a bit confused on my passover tradition.............helpppppppp

Ooooooo. That is bad. This is a cult attitude. yeah it is. unfortunately its really become a trend.... im living in South America right now and my church down here is starting to come into this stuff.... its extremely sad. but, like i said before, there's a balance with everything..... and me having a crappy "anti" attitude when i talk to the people in my current church about my experiences isnt going to help any.......... if you're interested, you should look up "Harvest International Ministries" .. i used to go (forced to go) to their central church in pasadena california and my then pastor (who's probably at least partially insane) was one of their licensed pastors...

Nah. but then they went and told my pastor how rebellious i was for not listening to them. it was a mess.

lol. i remember one time when i was in the discipleship program, my pastor sent me to have a "counseling" session with some peopple. So i went in there and they encouraged me to spill my guts, so to speak, with my life story and stuff. so i trusted them, and when it was all over...lol....instead of giving me counseling or advice or even prayer and a word of loving encouragement....................... they pulled out a plastic bag and told me to make myself throw up so that the demons could come out of me...... That was their ministry, going around with plastic bags and trying to get people to throw their demons up. RIDICULOUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <sigh>

here is the website : this is the website I need to pray about this. Something doesn't feel right at all! Friend, I spent years of my early christian life being dragged to prophetic conferences and churches where they (amongst other teachings) lifted up Mary K Baxter's stuff... This was the most wounded i've probably ever been in my christian experience. If they did prayer lines and the pastor pushed everyone on the forehead and everybody fell except for me , they'd all look at me and call me "rebellious" or a "religious spirit" as i was supposedly resisting the Holy Spirit.... I was too young to know any better and used to cry out to God why i wasn't able to receive like they received. Contrary to what some of the people said while responding to you - Paul, John (revelation, people. geez) , Isaiah, Ezekiel, and many other prophets had visions of heaven OR visions of the "Glory of the Lord..." Remember the vision Ezekiel had of the winged creatures, with the four faces and the whirring wheels and stuff? Yeah. It's not like he was down at his local Starbucks and he saw this being come strolling in the front door asking for a venti Thai Espresso Latte. He was seeing in the Spiritual Realm. It's important, as someone who's been there and through that terrible wounding abusive crap, that we don't close ourselves off completely to that side of the things of God. God is SPIRIT. God does, from time to time, give visions. we are not called to despise the concept of the word of prophecy - as there have been real prophets, biblically, and are for sure people today who have received REAL words of knowledge , or gifts of prophecy from the Lord. It's just that its become such a FASHION and an AMBITION in the church to become famous "prophets" and give "Divine Words" that are actually just soulish emotionalism. We must remember that most prophets in the Bible WERE NOT ACCEPTED by the people they were sent to speak to - which is the opposite of this prophetic trend happening now in the church. Unfortunately, i know the circle of people your church runs around with. I bet when the big Pensacola "Revival" with Todd Bentley was going on they were all about it. But, oops, homeboy separated from his wife and that's how the "revival" ended. (Todd Bentley is a "prophet," on the "prophetic" conference circuit - giong around to different churches w/ other "prophets" and giving nice emotionalistic feel-good seminars disguised as the Word of God. I'm sure you know the type. Wild, disorderly screaming in tongues. Sometimes barking like dogs, out of control people, crazy off-based "prophetic" words, being "drunk in the spirit," and calling anyone who doubts or doesn't agree with them "rebellious" or "religious." if you haven't been subject to such things yet, it's only half a step away from where your church is now. And , in my opinion, only a matter of time until they invite someone from this more extreme circle into your midst. PLEASE. PLEASE. I'm begging you from my heart. Don't do what I did. Don't go and get bitter. Don't allow it. God is so much bigger than that. I spent years (and am still working on it) being SOOOOO bitter with these people for almost destroying my life (and causing many of my brothers and sisters to stumble)- instead of learning the real lesson that God desired me to learn. How to LOVE people in the face of adversity. I'm ashamed of my failures. If i was you, i'd leave that church. Immediately. Go find yourself an Assemblies of God church or something. They're not perfect, but they're for the most part not as crazy abusive. You're gonna find problems there, too. But you need to stick closer to God than you do to man. Be patient. Don't church hop everytime you don't agree with some little thing. PRAY. LOVE. freaking love, man. its seriously so important. sincerely, some dried up and burnt out dude who's full of book knowledge, church experience, and pride - but is grieved to death that maybe he doesn't love like he should.................

Joe, I couldnt agree more than many churches are WAYYYY more worried about the size of their congregation than the spiritual wellbeing of their congregation. I heard it put this way by a man who ran a homestudy church at his house : "The Bible tells us that Jesus' sheep know His voice, therefore shouldn't we be about speaking the Word of God and let it do its own work by calling its own people?" I agree with that. I went to a church in Hollywood that was extremely worried about numbers and was always having "special guests" from the Hollywood industry and telling the congregation to "tell all your friends to come" because so-and-so was gonna be there next Sunday. Yknow, Billy Banks the tae-bo guy, Chuck Norris, Harrison Ford's stunt double from Clear And Present Danger (im not making this up), the guy who wrote "Chicken Soup for the Soul..." etc etc. it was sad. instead of being the head, we were chasing the tail of Hollywood. sad sad sad. But i also must say this: you're not the first anti organized religion guy ive met who bases his view of the church on the verse you quoted - under the interpretation that the church is the "whore of Babylon" that believers must come out of. You see, some christians view the Whore as the catholic church. While some believers view the church as a whole as the Whore. but THIS is an interpretation and in no way proveable (in my opinion). i'd be interested in hearing your interpretation. and i must say, in my opinion, that the whore more fits the catholic church (via the merchants of gold/silver/etc - as the catholic churches are known for this type of thing) than the christian church or organized religion as a whole. BUT im not convinced she's the catholic church, either. there's a lot to it. the babylonians were a merchant people, and continuosly throughout references of Babylon (the whore) there's always the theme of merchants. Even the King of Tyre from Ezekiel has a lot in common with the theme of the whore of babylon. So i guess before getting into it (not that i feel myself fully qualified for such a task) i'd like to hear you explain your reasoning as to why you believe the church as a whole fits the biblical description of Babylon. Keep in mind Rev 18:23 , as i'd like to see that reconciled with this interpretation. "for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery." Because apparently the church merchants were the great men of the earth (?????) and "ALL" the nations (afghanistan, iran, yemen, saudi arabia) were deceived by the church's sorcery...... (???) I'm not so sure...

i tend to agree that there is something to be said for word for word translations, as its awesome to be able to find the roots of the words in hebrew or greek and do deeper, in depth studies.... plus it enables the work of a concordance without having to worry so much about how the guy translated the same word into different paraphrases and therefore you could read the Message all your life and still not realize that there's a relationship between the two verses... but i think we can also start falling into the "I dont read any books: just the bible" people who think reading books by Augustine or Bonhoeffer is wrong because you're reading a man's interpretation. Well, like the other guy said - that happens EVERY TIME we watch a biblical based play, movie, etc.. And furthermore, every time we hear a pastor preach. It's that pastor's (hopefully prayerfully received) interpretation of the Bible , often times paraphrased. my Bible is the NASB keyword greek/hebrew study bible. I ****LLLOOOVVVEEE**** that Bible soooo much. but you know what? Like the NIV or KJV, there's stuff i dont agree with in the way they translated some things. There's even a commentary talking about Jesus on the cross and how He "loved Psalms so much, He even quoted from them as He was dying." REALLY? He loved Psalms so much and thats why He quoted them, or David was so full of the Spirit that He foresaw and therefore quoted the future and eternal Words of Christ? those interpretations are worlds apart.... i guess in conclusion - if i was stranded w/ nothing on a desert island and a copy of the Message somehow got into my hands - I think i'd be seriously praising God for it. although i currently dont own a copy and probably never will, as its more a tool for leisure reading than serious study

heyyyyy, easy, friend. i hope thats not the attitude that i portrayed there and if it is, i think its one of those "lost-in-communication" things..... im not bashing organized religion AT ALL. i belong to a church currently, and pretty much have for almost the past 10 years. maybe my second post to joe kindof explains my stance a little bit better.... as far as the sabbath goes, SOMETIMES when churches get into that it becomes a sticky subject. For example, my old landlord belonged to a Christian sabbath keeping church but the guy was a little bit overzealously proud of the fact that he kept sabbath when perhaps others didnt. thats it, friend. if you read the end of what i wrote to Joe, i definitely clearly said that it wasnt a matter of organized religion vs. personal religion but that there are the same pitfalls on both sides. Furthermore, i recommended a new believer JOIN a church... its just i think its important to know the reasons why sabbath keeping churches keep the sabbath - its EXTREMELY important to have the right attitude about that stuff and I wouildnt recommend a new believer, who maybe doesnt necessarily know any better, start off in a church like that. although, from what you said about how some ppl needed to miss it for work - is seems like theyre doing it more with a "freewill offering" perspective than with a "commandment" perspective..... although in my opinion i still dont quite agree........... but thats just my opinoin i guess

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Interesting story, and the above would be the key, I think. If it ultimately gets folks back into reading the Bible for themselves it would be a good thing. Makes me wonder how a translation into Southern Redneck would do . . . im all for the propagation of the word of God.... im just glad the Message wasn't developed around 200A.D. and then all our Bibles today would be copies based on that. there's something special about number and verse.... with that said, i also believe any churches who are STRICTLY king james people are going to be sorely misrepresenting the Lord in about 50 years or so when NOBODY AT ALL understands old english anymore. It'll be like catholic churches reading latin that the laypeople dont understand. at some point we have to be flexible and part with tradition. i mean, i dig the kjv and it was at one point my Bible of choice, but.........

matthew 17 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. knowledge puffs up but love builds up, right? so i dont wanna allow myself to get combative w/ knowledge or verse......... ive known myself to be a little loveless at times, to my shame... if you're willing, we can work out way back through to ezekiel and learn some stuff together. But i dont see any way this part of the debate ( i guess thats what it is) can continue. Maybe im wrong. anyway, iron sharpens iron, man, and you definitely forced and challenged me to go search it out... so thank you, brother.... God bless,

I hear you loud and clear, friend. Ive spent time in a good number of different churches and denominations... seen the spectrum. From numbers numbers numbers to prayer lines where the pastor pushes your forehead (hard) and everybody goes down. And if you dont go down - you're resisting the Holy Spirit and everybody looks at you like something's wrong with you. I spent 3 years working with the FourSquare's central church. Went to AofG's yearly Pastor's School Conferences (3 times) and heard the pastor of their central church speak more times than I can count. Got dragged along to H.I.M. prophetic conferences (against my will, as i was in a discipleship program at the time) plenty of times. Went on mobile ministry missions trips to all kinds of different churches from California to Oregon to New Mexico to Colorado. Joined up with YWAM for a time. Heard and saw many of the "big name" pastors/evangelists/prophets of our generation. Was under ridiciculous spiritual authority abusing leaders and watched dozens of my brothers and sisters fall away. And my experience with all of them over the last 8 years? There's ALLLLL kinds of problems with the churches. But then again, i've also known a good number of people who did the "forsaking organized religion" bit and relied on a few christian believers here and there to have fellowship with. And many of those people, to tell you the truth, fall under the same kinds of crap the denominations do. Judaizing, confusing the Godhead, believing Heaven is already on Earth, believing that there's no such thing as sin, thinking that our sin nature is the anti-christ spoken of in Daniel/thessalonians/etc, or that the prophecies of Revelation ALREADY happened and are therefore NOT actively important for our generation. The only difference between these loners and the more organized churches, many times, are the size of their fellowships. As a man who experienced LOTS AND LOTS of crazy, ludicrous, abusive, damaging, incorrect teachings in the denominations I can still say this: Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose. I think its important , especially for a new believer, to try and find a moderate church to become a part of and to stay there for awhile. That's NOT to say that the believer should absorb EVERYTHING that the pastor says as "Gospel Truth," per say, but to continue to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Keep what's from God, toss the rest, and learn from the experiences. Learn how to overcome the crap and LOVE in the face of adversity. Learn how to deal w/ differences and problems in love and not in judgment and bad attitudes. For every terrible hideous thing i saw in the churches, i met AMAZING, GODLY, LOVINGLY people who had walks with God that influenced me positively and helped me grow. And i'd gladly relive all the garbage in order for God to teach me the lessons that He taught me and draw me closer to Him like He's drawn me. I'm thankful for the adversity (or at least i try to be). The thing about new believers is that they dont know any better. and if they run off and get into some little bible study with WHOEVER (or by themselves), then they're just as likely to fall into wacky theologies and backwards understandings by themselves than as they could in certain denominational churches. Maybe worse. One of my best friends left the organized church and started up with who, in his mind, were his precious few believer friends. It started innocently with "Yahweh this, shalom that..." stuff and next thing you knew he was deeeeeep into governmental hyper-conspiracy theories and smoking herb again, before eventually dedicating his waking moments to reading websites about why the N.S.A. killed Kurt Cobain and the like....... im just sayin.... i hear ya - but there's two sides to everything and i believe we're called to a balance.

Well, i guess the obvious question is does following the Sabbath fall under the Mosaic Law guidelines orrrrrrrr do they make it up as they go along? Im not trying to offend anybody, but there were STRICT Sabbatical guidelines set forth in the O.T. - and they got even stricter when the Rabbis got ahold of them according to their interpretations... How does this church go about it? No work? No going outside the house? What about phone calls? What if your donkey falls in a dry creekbed or something - should you go get it out? Is driving to the worship service not considered a work? What happens if you belong to their church and "break the sabbath." Is it considered "profaning the Sabbath?" Are there consequences? I think the purpose and point of the Sabbath commandment was perhaps the same purpose and point of the rest of the commandments and laws: to prove to us, as humans, that its IMPOSSIBLE to keep them without utter dependence on the Lord. The Law served as a tutor unto Christ. When Paul, James, and the elders convened a council to decide what commandments the Gentile Christians should keep, they came up with this in Acts 21: 25"But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." Thats it. Nothing about the sabbath. Its worthy to read the entire context as well, seeing that some of the Christ believing Jews were a bit pissy with Paul bc they thought he was teaching the nullification of the Law to the Jews. So they convened in the light of this controversy AND STILL came up with no sabbatical commandments to the Gentile believers.... Im just sayin. Maybe im not right, but I think theres a difference between doing things because we view them as COMMANDMENTS and doing things because they're FREE WILL OFFERINGS to the Lord.... and remembering where our justification really comes from.... Also remember: in God's opinion of the Law, if you broke ONE law you broke them all. James 2:8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. just some food for thought.....

not to ruffle any feathers but Rev 4 certainly seems to be describing a "form" that john saw: rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. So there was surely at least SOME kind of appearance/form on the throne. and furthermore in rev 5:1 we have the One on the throne described as having a hand (a form). 1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. But then we have Jesus, the lamb , being distinctly different from this form as Jesus TAKES the scroll from the hand of Him on the throne - they're apparently two different entities... Rev 5:6 - And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. and then we also have every creature in heaven distinctly (apparently) singing to TWO beings. the One on the throne, and the worthy Lamb who was slain.... Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

as an american living in south america (colombia) , i can tell you that our independence isnt always a plus. Down here its an entirely different culture, a more FAMILIAR culture which is pretty much the exact opposite i grew up living in New England... For example, if i go to some church event where there's 20 people and I dont stop to greet EVERY SINGLE ONE of them , then its kindof like this "Oh he didn't say hi to me, he must be a jerk" thing going on. Also: if you invite a friend to go to the cinema or out to eat AND YOU DONT PAY FOR IT YOURSELF when the time comes, its a big deal. Here if you invite someone , that means you're inviting to PAY for someone. So its this tricky wordplay game everytime you wanna go out to hang out with somebody (and not end up footing the entire bill Personally, im trying to shed a bit of my independence. It makes me seem too cold to people in different cultures. Yeah, i get what you're saying about taking pride in the work of your hands and stuff (ive never taken a govt check besides a tax refund) , but heh your post just reminds me of what different cultures sometimes perceive us americans as (or at least me): the kind of people who just walk by and have their own interests because other people dont seem to matter... anyways... thats just my experience down here

thats cool, man. im glad you took the time to try and answer the questoin. im not gonna say i agree with you completely, as i think (to me) that the Glory of the Lord that appeared to Ezekiel seems to have been the Father and maybe *NOT* the Son and therefore all these other quotes you're speaking of could also be from the mouth of the Father and not necessarily the Son. in my original post i made an argument that the description of the Glory of the Lord in Ezekiel is an awful lot like what seems obvious to me in Rev 4 a description of the Father..... I also understand that sometimes the line kindof blurs between the two, as they are distinct YET together - but like i also quoted previously there's a powerful angel in Revelation who also has a measuring rod.... Now, of course God gives the orders for things to be measured but that doesn't mean the man with the measuring tool was necessarily Jesus Himself.... anyways, God bless and thx for the input

Or both? im going to say that since there were specific prophecies laid out by God far in advance of the jews' rejection of Jesus, it was therefore His plan BEFORE it ever happened (because He foresaw it).