angeleyesGBU

Jesus said an evil generation (race, family, generation) desires a sign. He also appeal to His signs as evidence than He was the messiah sent by God. Many of those who saw the miracles, we not convinced and even sought to kill Him. As Jesus said in His story about the rich man as Lazarus, they would not believe even if someone returned from the dead! What signs and wonders then, will convince people? Some people will be fooled in the future, and perhaps presently are, by false signs and false wonders. Tragic, but true.

Thanks Dennis for the helpful post. I am at least casually aware of what are referred to as natural knowledge, middle knowledge, creative command, and free knowledge, and whether you know it or not, they have a lot to do with what you wrote. I think it is helpful when we define terms, one of the being "foreknowledge". I an not convince that in the Bible, that always implies knowing things (like facts) ahead of time, though of course it can mean that certainly. If we assume that for the moment, I don't see how predestination is avoidable (I am mostly just thinking out loud perhaps more that responding to what you wrote). What I mean to say about that, is that if God foreknew (as a hypothetical example) that Israel would one day again be a land of habitation for the Jewish people, then that event would certainly take place. If God says "If you will do this, then I will do that", then there is a conditional aspect which puts (at least seemingly) under the control of the person or people He is making a covenant with. God is not a liar, so if He says He will do something, then He will do it. This can be tricky though. It sounds cut and dried, but is it? How do we know that God's "if", is up to the person to do? Is it not possible that God can cause a person to do the "if", thus converting the "if" to a "when"? With the thought that God foreknows a fact, knows something will occur, that does not mean that He caused it to occur, and if that is true, then foreknowledge is not a cause and effect type of determinism. However, while that is interesting in a philosophical sense, I am not sure what practical difference it makes to we on the ground with our limited knowledge and thinking, who can observe outcomes, but ultimately cannot fully know the thoughts of a God whose ways are not our ways, and whose thoughts are not our thoughts. If God truly foreknows something, in the sense of knowing facts before they have happened, then they WILL happen, just as He foreknew. If THAT is true, then whether He cause it or not, decided based on what He foreknew or not, of whatever other ways we care to frame the proposition are ultimately irrelevant from our perspective. If God foreknows (perhaps foresees is a better word (since knowledge is often about intimacy, not just factual awareness) and it does not come to pass, then what He foreknew turns out to be false knowledge, an error, not characteristic of an all knowing God. I am curious enough to ask Dennis, since you highlighted this: This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. What is it that you suppose foreknowledge and predestined mean in Romans 8 where it says: 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. I am thinking (and willing to change my mind) that perhaps when the Bible speaks to things involving free will, predestination, foreknowledge, that those terms do not always mean the same thing in every application, perhaps they are more malleable that we assume, and don't fit neatly into the boxes we fore them into. Perhaps for example, God predestines some to come to Him, and yet while He may know what color car I will choose next time I buy a car, it is indeed my free will choice, with not predestination at all, yet in matters of being saved, coming to Jesus, that is something He caused - perhaps He in some way, caused me to come and then when I did according to His will, He granted me to come, just as Jesus said! Thanks for you interest and thoughtful reply.

I was just reading a daily reading in the Bible 365 Club here, and something in the book of John, caught me by surprise. I made a comment there, but I can see that there is not a lot of participation there, so I copied what I said there, for you consideration and thoughts here, as follows. “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Interesting, I was just discussing with someone about this with someone yesterday, or at least something related to this. We were talking about what free will means. I know that I have free will, at least I was thinking I have free will. Just reading the verses above makes me realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did. That verse hit me like a ton of bricks! How have I failed to notice it before? Apparently I admit I have some confusion now, I need to study more. As a church affiliated teacher at a Christian high school who teaches Bible for a living, I need to be better informed! What I am thinking, is that God invites everyone to come to Jesus. I am certain I can make that case from the Bible. In that verse, I am tempted to think that is as much as God has made that invitation, that permission is implied. It that is the situation, well, I am missing something. If I cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted me by the Father, doesn't that say or seem to say that the Father makes the decision, and I cannot come unless He says yes, and therefore it would seem, sometimes He says no or perhaps, I cannot even try to come unless He does something? Maybe my free will is not quite as simple as I think!

That seems like a fair question Bopeep , and maybe one which a person who does not like to debate the petty stuff would prefer not to answer, I suppose we will see. I would point out however, that that comment was made last year, and I hope M.E. is not applying it to more recent comments, as I sure to not think most of this thread is petty at all, since it discusses our obligations to our savior, we are to be about His business, as He was about His Fathers' business! oops, gotta go, class is about to start!

I think they have probably heard it enough to be accountable, but Romans 1 says all are already accountable for the little revelation they have. I do think also, that hearing the words, is not just hearing with your ears, it is understanding with the heart, we cannot give them that. In any case, can we use the excuse that they have already heard, and therefore, there is no need to tell them again? Maybe, it is in God's plan, for them to hear it again, to be reminded. I no doubt had a general idea of the gospel long before I committed to it. The thing is, we do not know who has heard, who has understood, until we talk to them about it. Let me pose a question to you. Of all the people here on the forums, do you suppose there are even 10% who have not heard the gospel? Second question - are you convinced that those who have head it, understand it? If not, then we still have work to do. The great commission is not about just telling people the gospel, it is about making disciples. That is our job. When everyone is a disciple, then out work is finished. Finally, I suggest that there is more that we can do. In western civilization, we are not only usually at least casually aware of the gospel, we are financially well off by the worlds' standards, and we can help by being missionaries, or supporting missionaries world wise.

13for “EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

Actions ARE important, but by themselves, they do not spread the gospel. It is of course not an either or, but a both and. However, when it comes down to it, failure to tell others about Jesus, I think, is a greater omission that neglecting to send them a "thinking of you" note, or baking them a cake, or even encouraging them when they are feeling down. Both are important, but one introduces them to Jesus, the other endears them to us!

Hi angels4u, that is a great question! I subscribe to the practice: "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." There is no way to preach the Gospel without words. Apart from the words, all people see is behavior. I have know people who are generous and kind, encouraging and helpful, even seem to live outstanding lives when viewed by there ethics and morals. These people appeal to me more than most Christians (or at least most who say they are Christians), without the words of the Gospel, they are like the Pharisees, white washed tombs. These people are unlike the Pharisees though, because they are appealing it ways the Pharisees were not. What so Christians, disciples of Christ, do, what is important to them? The love God, the love their neighbors, and the love Jesus. How to the love Jesus? "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15 NASB One of Jesus commandments was: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” I offer then that if people love Jesus, then they are about His business of making disciples, and will be teaching those new disciples to obey Jesus. Any Christian who is not doing that, is not loving Jesus or his neighbors as he or she ought to. Evangelism and preaching the gospel or not extra credit options, they are commandments. Good works and an lovely personality, are great to have, but no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, and without the words, they have nothing to understand and believe. "Witnessing" is about testifying. The good works and behavior, and winning personality are a testimony, only if people know that you are a Christian, and have been informed of what that means. Since you asked, I have the privilege of teaching Bible and Church History to High School students, so that is one way and place where I get to make disciples and preach the Gospel. In the public sphere, I live a Godly life, so as not to bring disrepute to Jesus or His church. I offer small acts of kindness, I try to be the biggest tipper at the restaurant, I let people go ahead of me in lines at the supermarket, if they have fewer items than me in their carts, or if they have restless children with them. I engage people in conversation, and tell them about Jesus (the supermarket line is great for that - a captive audience) and if they are two busy to talk with me, I give them a gospel tract to read later, with a business card stapled to it, so they can call me if they have any questions. I hold Bible studies in my neighborhood, and I am quick to help neighbors, where I see a need. Want to know a good way you have a long conversation? Get down in the dirt with neighbors, and help them pull weeds. See a homeless person panhandling? Take them to a fast food restaurant for a meal (and conversation). You get the idea, it just takes only a little imagination to recognize that opportunities are all over the place. That is step one. Step two is to resolve to be obedient. Step three is to put your money where your mouth is and actually love God and your neighbor, instead of lip service and telling ourselves that concern and prayers for people is all we need do. If you love your neighbor, you will make sure than they hear the gospel. So, I now repeat those excellent questions: How do you witness to others? How can they see Jesus in you ,so they would like to receive what you have?

I am already there, and it is very good, though I can tell it is still a work in progress. It looks like it has a lot of members (more that any of the other clubs on Worthy, but it also looks as though not that many are truly active - too bad, it is their loss!

Hi angels4u, It is by faith that I also trust the Bible, and because I trust the Bible, I have faith in the God who inspired it - well, I suppose I have faith because God blessed me with faith! However, while in principle a agree with what you said about taking away from the word, I am not exactly sure how to apply that, but what I understand it to be saying, is "Do not take away or add to this book. "This book", is the book of Revelation. The Bible is not a book, it is a small library!

Seventh Day Adventist