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I get your point ome. The discussion certainly seems that important to Hartono. What we need to look at Hartono is that even in Moses' time, the point of all giving whether the giving was to the temple for the priests and Levites use, or being dispersed to anyone in need. Is that all benefited from it. Not just a few. It benefited those who gave. It benefited those who received. Those who did give, were giving back to God. And most importantly it was instituted to teach us to put God first in our lives. The giving back to God and putting God first in our lives through giving is certainly taught in the NT. The concept and principle is there. The church did NOT as you put it.... copy and paste the tithe. When we read the book of Acts we see that at the very beginning, that the church began with Jewish Christians, not gentiles, but Jews. For the gospel message was first preached to the Jews, then to the gentiles. The reason for giving a voluntary “ tithe” to the church was taught by the Apostles who were themselves Jewish. This was taught to both Jew and gentile by the Apostles themselves. So nothing was copy and pasted by the church. They didn't copy or steal anything !! In Acts 4 we see that money was used, because it was more functional, useful and practical than trying to carry crops and drag livestock to destinations of those in need. God is not unreasonable. If a person needed financial help, the need was met. Tithing even back when Deuteronomy was penned, was supposed to be a pleasant and joyful event. Not something people dreaded. Deuteronomy 14:24-27 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. We give to the local church first because that is the mechanism of God’s movement in the world, with the local church typically also supporting missionaries and ministries that help those in need; in and through the local church, one is able to give in a variety of ways. Local churches have financial needs, and when a large number of congregants do not help financially, the pastor has no choice but to say something just as Malachi had to say something. In summary, a local pastor or t.v evangelist, quoting Malachi is nothing. I don't know of any church other than the mormon church that goes out of their way to enforce mandatory tithing. I've heard that if one forgets to tithe in the mormon church, come next meeting, you better have last week's tithe along with this week's tithe with you, and if you miss this week as well, they will send someone to your home to remind you that you missed two weeks in a row. They keep records of every member's income and tithing habits. If the above is not your situation, and your arm is not being twisted till you give, then why are you whining about pastor's who are merely asking congregants to give? A lot of pastor's will agree with you, that it isn't good for a pastor or church, to use pressure tactics. In spite of a pastor using pressure tactics, the choice to give or not is between you and God. We can't make that any clearer.

@R. Hartono God expected the Israelites to provide for the needs of those who were serving in the temple and their families. It wasn't just for those who performed temple service, but also for those who paid the tithe. Everyone benefited from it. Not just a few select individuals. Those who were doing ministry work in the temple, were also ministering to the people. Malachi 3 was addressing the point that the Jews in his day, were not following the tithing system that was required of them by the law. In other words, they simply neglected to tithe overall. And because of that negligence the storehouses were empty. They didn't just bring food to the storehouses, but also other necessity's The tithes was not only a way to provide for those who had no other means of income, but also and more importantly, was instituted to teach us to put God first in our lives. When a person tithed, he was giving back to God. We can see from the passage in Luke 10 that the principle of meeting the needs of those who were doing ministry work was carried over into the NT. When Jesus sent the 72 other disciples into towns ahead of him, they were instructed to stay in someone's home and be provided for. From this we can see that more than food was provided. Scripture is silent on their duration of stay, but no doubt they stayed at the home for more than a single day. My point in highlighting this is to show that a pastor of a church, is working and does deserve a wage from his congregation. Luke 10:7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. In the above verse we see that Jesus expected those who were sent out, were also to be paid, through having their needs provided for. Those who were preaching were instructed to accept the hospitality offered to them. The instruction went in both directions, not just one. Jesus instructed those he sent out to take nothing with them. A rhetorical question to ask yourself..... do you really think those sent out by Jesus, only needed food and nothing else? Did they not also need a place to stay? And if they had other needs, it was to be provided for them by the town they served in. It is true, that a tithe is not the New Testament standard. But neither is it biblical to view the 10 percent, as belonging to God and 90 percent as yours to spend as you please. The New Testament teaching is, God owns it all. We merely manage it for Him. When we give, we are giving to God's work. A tithe then is suggested starting point. Giving an offering/tithe, brings joy both to the giver and to the person who receives the offering. The giver sees that God has accepted his offering. And he knows that God is using it to declare his good news. The person who receives it can be glad with him. For that person, the offering shows that God is providing for him. And they both can give thanks to God, together.

@R. Hartono I will answer the other post as I have time

Meant to put in the previous post, that much of what people have prophesied after the time of the Apostles aligns more along the lines of attempting to predict the future. Too much emphasis is placed the finer details of tomorrow. Many of these “prophecies” look more like the form of divination instead of a message from God. The canon is closed, Jesus is the final word. Our focus in life should be on Jesus, and not worrying about tomorrow. If we are not ready spiritually, we will not be ready for anything that happens physically. Matthew 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Revelation 19:10 (LB) The purpose of all prophecy and of all I have shown you is to tell about Jesus. Revelation 19:10 (NASB) For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I have the impression and picture, that your looking to find fault with money set aside to be given to the church because you feel the churches don't deserve the money. Mark 12 : 41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. We can see from the passage above, that money was indeed used to pay a “tithe”. The concept is there. Churches use the term “tithe” today to mean setting aside a certain amount of one’s income for God. Typically a tithe refers to a tenth of one’s income because the word literally means “tenth” but it is often generalized to mean any amount of money set aside for God. This money is traditionally given to the local church. The concept of setting aside a sum of money to be voluntarily given can certainly be found in the NT, not only for the purpose of helping others in need, but also for sharing in the work of spreading the gospel. 1 Corinthians 9 : 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. In the OT, the priests and Levites were not given land as the rest of the Israelite's were. Instead, they were given cities to live in, and in payment for their services in the temple, the tithes from the other tribes were given to them. The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 9, Paul teaches the meaning and principle of giving a tithe / offering. Paul teaches that he does indeed have a right to receive some compensation from church members, even though he isn't demanding they do so. For he wanted them to do so voluntarily of their own accord, not under coercion. 1 Corinthians 9:7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. In summary, it is NOT wrong to give a tithe to a local church as a person feels led to, nor is it wrong for a church to ask for tithes / offerings / donations. I can't make the following statement any more clearer. The money you earn is at your disposal, to decide what to do with it. Just the same as other people. What you decide to do with your money is up to you. Whether to tithe or not is a personal decision between you and the Lord.

The matter of money really seems to be of major importance to you. Whether you decide to give or not is between you and God. He fully understands when any of us don't have the means to make an offering. The important thing is that we see giving as a privilege and not a burden. It should not be out of a sense of duty, but rather out of love for the Lord and a desire to see His kingdom advanced. I don't know what denomination you attend, but do understand that not every denomination or church demands its members to tithe. Churches haves to pay bills just like everyone else. Utilities and supplies are NOT free. If a repairman is needed, they have to pay him for his services. Vehicles used to pick people up from their homes and bring them to church and then take them back home after services have to pay for the upkeep of the vehicles and fuel. It costs money to cook the food for the homeless, plus other expenses. Tithes and offerings help with all this.

No, the original poster is NOT talking about the mentally challenged or those with mental illness. To understand what the opster is speaking of ..... from your favorite website. Got questions Ignorance is the lack of knowledge or understanding. Ignorant people are either unaware or uninformed. Sometimes we are ignorant because we did not know there was a need to learn something. Other times, we are ignorant because we have chosen not to learn something we need to know. In Hosea 4:6, the Lord says, “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you.” Willfully rejecting knowledge that God wants us to have is sinful ignorance. While unintentional ignorance about earthly topics is understandable, intentional ignorance about spiritual matters can lead to eternal destruction (Romans 1:18–23). The Bible makes a distinction between ignorance and innocence. We don’t have to be ignorant of the fact of sin; in fact, we can be highly informed about sin yet remain innocent of it. But we should all be ignorant about the practice of evil. Ephesians 5:11–12 says, “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.” In Matthew 10:16, Jesus warned us, “I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.” To effectively fight the spiritual battle, we must know something of how our enemy functions. Believers are encouraged to forgive each other, “so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs” (2 Corinthians 2:11, ESV). Ignorance about what the devil is up to—and ignorance of the damage done by unforgiveness—is dangerous to our spiritual health. One of Satan’s basic tactics is to keep people ignorant: “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Ignorant people are easy prey for those with wicked schemes (Psalm 1:1–2; Proverbs 7:6–7, 21–23). God says that idolatry springs from spiritual ignorance: “Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save” (Isaiah 45:20). Ignorance of the true God is unjustifiable, because the knowledge of God’s existence and power is available all around us (Romans 1:18–23). People who substitute false gods instead of pursuing the real God are sinfully ignorant. Hebrews 5:2 says that Jesus is “able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray since he himself is subject to weakness.” God has great patience, even with the ignorant. Even when we are willfully ignorant, He gives us a multitude of opportunities to learn (2 Peter 3:9). Paul said that God showed him mercy because, before Jesus saved him, he had “acted in ignorance and unbelief” (1 Timothy 1:13; Acts 3:17). God commands us to repent of our ignorance and seek Him with all our hearts (Acts 17:30; Jeremiah 29:13). The opposite of spiritual ignorance is wisdom, and we are told to seek wisdom above all things (Proverbs 3:13–18). Fortunately, wisdom is readily accessible; the book of Proverbs personifies wisdom as a noble lady who is calling out to all publicly: “To you, O people, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, set your hearts on it” (Proverbs 8:4–5). Every time the Bible commands us to “listen” or to “hear,” God is giving us a chance to trade ignorance for His wisdom. https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-ignorance.html

The bible NEVER calls or describes a person who is intellectually disabled a fool; but uses the word foolishness, to describe someone who knows without question that an action is wrong but makes the decision to do it anyway. Or the knowing of what is right, but failing to do it. Not because he or she is intellectually challenged, but because the individual is indifferent to the situation. Neither one is helpful, for both are ways in which we human's sin. Its the not caring of how God regards the situation. In this sense, a person lacks wisdom and common sense. Because he or she knows what is right, but fails to do it, or knows something is wrong but does it anyway whether it is right, wrong or indifferent. People in general speaking, like to think of themselves as being above average in intelligence, because they think it makes them look good in the eyes of others, gives them an advantage over others, or to make themselves feel good about themselves. In summary, wisdom or being intelligent is not about being recognized as having a high IQ, but about our hearts and attitude towards sin, and what God thinks about it. There is no point in knowing what is right if you don't do it. Doing what you know is right and avoiding what you know is wrong is true wisdom and using common sense.

Regarding John 3 : 13 In context, Jesus himself who is God in the flesh is the only one who has the knowledge and ability to speak and teach regarding divine matters. Only he, could tell of heaven's eternal truths. For he is the only one to come down from heaven. The passage tells us that no human has gone to heaven and then returned to earth. When we humans pass away, we can not come back. Not even Paul, was able to describe or speak in humanly terms of what he had seen and heard in a vision of heaven.

Who is Jesus to me? My redeemer. He is God in the flesh, fully God and fully man at the same time. Born of a woman, born as a Jew, died on the cross and rose to life again. Jesus is the exact representation of God's glory. Salvation can be found in no one else.

Lets start with your opening post. The above could not happen till after Jesus' ascension. The Holy Spirit is also called our Advocate. After Jesus went back up to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us. John 16 : 7, 8 7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:… True that they knew scripture, but they misunderstood. They did not believe who Jesus said he was, and his purpose in coming. More than that, they did not “trust” God. Instead they were looking for and expecting someone who would come as a warrior and conquer who would stake out a geographical claim and get rid of Roman rule. Not a savior that would die on the cross for mankind's sin. If they had believed and trusted God, then they would have admitted they were sinning, and they didn't want to do that. When people hear the gospel message and believe in their hearts that what they are hearing is true, will then put their trust in him to do for them as God has promised. God wants us to believe the gospel message John 6 : 9 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Acts 2 : 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off 1 Ephesians 1 : 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, We don't need to seek the Holy Spirit, for he already resides in each believer's heart. The above passages tells us that when we “hear” the gospel message, the Holy Spirit is given to each believer and is a promise. The receiving/indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation The story of Cornelius in Acts 10 is an example of what I just said. Cornelius was a gentile that worshiped God, but he had not heard the gospel message until Peter came to his home. When Peter arrived, a large gathering of people were already there in Cornelius's home. Peter began his sermon in verse 28 and while he was still speaking, 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. The Holy Spirit was given to all in Cornelius's home who were listening to Peter talk about the gospel. They didn't need to ask for him or seek him. Paul made a point in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that he and his colleagues worked for a living rather than sponging off their hosts. Paul was a tent maker by trade. They earned their keep, rather than rely on handouts. They worked at jobs, just like everyone else. 2 Thessalonians 2 : 7, 8 We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 2 Thessalonians 2 : 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” Grace is "unmerited favor". In other words, it is unearned. Christ's death on the cross makes us worthy of heaven. Romans 3:22-25 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

@Christian Believer Who is Jesus to you?

@Christian Believer What does the term "born again" mean to you?

The photo below is from wikipedia, of an ancient mikveh. The requirement was well water, spring fed, or rain water. They would not have constructed these, if there was no way to fill them with water. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mikva.jpg#/media/File:Mikva.jpg

You said in the above post, that it wasn't possible for people to be baptized. I didn't say anything in my post about OT scripture. What I pointed out was the fact that there water collected into those mikveh's. So there was indeed water available and enough of it to baptize. I did not say you were. According to Jewish web sites ...In temple times, the priests as well as each Jew who wished to enter the temple had to first immerse in a mikvah. And was used for purification purposes. Not because one needed to clean dirt off the skin. The people in those days, certainly understood the concept of being unclean, just as the gentiles were considered unclean where sin is concerned. We are not talking about dirt on the skin. The mode of baptism, is not worth dividing people over. The principle of john baptizing and its meaning, had not really changed. Because as each person was immersed, they recognized that the water was a symbol of being cleansed from the old life of sin. And coming back up to a new life. They were identifying themselves with God

It is true that the word baptism is a Greek word used in the NT, nobody disagrees with this. But the practice of immersing oneself, did not begin in the NT, but was already pre-existing. And was a qualification in various rites and rituals of the ancient Jewish life. And absolutely required of those wishing to convert to Judaism in ancient times. People in ancient times were immersed in a “mikveh”. Jewish law required these to be big enough and contain enough water to cover the entire body, including the head. Total immersion was the requirement and rule for any of the ritual purification rites that were practiced. Ancient mikveh or mikvoth, can be found in many places throughout Jerusalem and throughout the land of Israel. These were either spring fed, or was a collection of rainwater. Since these were in many places throughout, it makes sense to think that on the day of Pentecost, that the people were baptized in one of these. It isn't unreasonable to think that since the Jewish people were quite familiar with immersion rites, and the fact that baptism on the day of Pentecost, was a public ceremony just the same as the baptism in the Jordan river when John oversaw the immersions, that people just stepped in clothes and all. The purpose and meaning was more important than whether they brought a towel or change of clothes with them. Or even how long it took for the number of people to be baptized in one day.

As we read from 2 Samuel, chapter 13 through 18, we learn that Absalom feared he would be forgotten, and attempted to memorialize his name, because he had no male heir to carry on the family name. As we read, we discover that he did have sons at some point. The sons names are not listed, because it very likely they died at a very early age. However, the author's intention was not to point out discrepancies, but to show that Abijah's mother was from the line of Absalom. There are three Tamar's mentioned in scripture. The one mentioned in 2 Samuel 14 : 27 is the daughter of Absalom. Very little is said about her. Other than that she, like her aunt was very attractive and was married to Rehoboam, the son of Solomon. Rehoboam and Tamar daughter of Absalom, had a son whose name was Abijah who took the throne after his father died. If there is other information than this, it is from outside of scripture.

First I want to make it absolutely clear that salvation is by faith alone, not by faith and something we do. I do not disagree, that water baptism is by immersion. Neither do I disagree that Jesus commanded believers to be baptized. Being baptized is an important first step in following Jesus as Lord. The purpose of water baptism is not to demonstrate our obedience, but to make a public statement that we are identifying ourselves with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. It is a public proclamation, that you are trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus and turning from all known sin. In other words, a public testimony of our faith and commitment to follow Jesus. A person that goes through the motions of water baptism because it is tradition in his or her denomination, is in actuality, telling everyone publicly that he or she really doesn't believe the gospel message or God's written word concerning Christ and his mission to die for us. Getting baptized without understanding what it means and why you are doing it, turns it a meaningless ritual. Getting baptized because your denomination demanded you do so, without truly understanding Christ's death, burial and resurrection is nothing more than a meaningless ritual to be seen by men. And the very reason I did not home in on the words “immersion” and “obedience”. I gave scripture in a previous post which should have made all this clear as day.

That is true, he did.

I NEVER said a pastor should not preach from the bible nor did I say a pastor should avoid talking about hell, NOT at all! What Starise pointed to was the ALL law and condemning style of preaching that was designed frighten people into believing in God. There is a right and wrong way to share the gospel message. It is not possible to share the good news of the gospel without bringing up both sin and hell into the conversation. Just saying “Jesus died for you” is meaningless to an unbeliever unless you also say why. The following an example of a Preacher giving “fire and brimstone” sermon. Your gonna burn in hell!!!!!! Change ye ways... or your gonna buurrrnnn!!!! Burn, I tell you!!!! Wash ye hands you sinners!!!! There is sulfur, fire and brimstone!!!! Beware!!!! Misery !!!! Beware!!!! You'll be in torture forever!!!! The above was the style of preaching my mom grew up with. The whole entire sermon was spoken like that! It was nothing but constant condemnation. In fact, every sermon began and ended that way. Who wants to hear a sermon like that? Do you? She didn't hear the gospel message, until someone invited her to a church years later which didn't speak to its congregation in the style of “fire and brimstone”.

I have never been in a church that gave a “scare them to death ” style of speech on the subject of hell. The ‘good news’ of the gospel message requires that there be ‘bad news first. They need to know, that we believers don't just blindly believe in a living God. They need to come to a position that he is real. It is necessary to tell them what sin is and what it is not. Sin is not a person They need to understand that sin is a wrong thought, wrong deed, or wrong words spoken. Whether against God or another human. All of this is against God's nature and character. Romans 1 : 18 - 20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. People are said to be sinful/evil, because their actions/deeds are sinful. Then they need to learn what they are being saved from; that they are being saved from God's wrath on SIN itself. And being saved from going to hell as a result of sin. All of this is what “hell” is about. There are many heinous acts such as murder, rape, etc.... committed by depraved individuals, who never seem to experience judgment in this life. Everyone knows that it is wrong to not hold such persons accountable for what they’ve done; the human heart itself demands justice. And hell is God’s answer. People have a hard time understanding that even though others have not committed such grievous acts that they too, deserve punishment. We humans in general, have grievances against each other. We would want justice if someone stole something from us, harmed a family member, or committed other unjust acts against us. Our sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging us. Every time we break God’s law, that’s an offense to God. And he demands justice, just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale. If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should pay for what he did!” then you essentially agree with the the doctrine of hell which teaches that somebody is going to pay for every sin, eventually. God's justice demands a penalty of death for sin. Not just for heinous sins, but ALL sins. Because all sins are an affront to God. The good news is that God has provided a way out from going to hell, through the death of his son on the cross to pay the debt of sin for us, and if we will accept and believe that, he will declare us not guilty.

No, jayne is saying that jayne is leaving, not that you are leaving

Jesus described hell in many ways that we could understand, but he placed more importance on one very important detail; the necessity of NOT going there and what we are to do to avoid going there. The worst part of hell is being eternally separated from the Lord. God is the source of all good things. Once a person who has rejected him and dies in their sins, he / she is forever separated from God, and that in itself is the ultimate punishment; they have forever lost the chance to see God’s face, hear his voice, experience his forgiveness, or enjoy his fellowship. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

The meaning and purpose of being water baptized is more important than the method. If we say that baptism is required to receive salvation; it then makes it “saved by works” instead of the work of God's grace. It is an outward demonstration of the inward reality that God has already caused you to be born from above. It symbolizes and demonstrates that we are following Jesus in being baptized as He was baptized. Baptism is a symbol of being a follower of Jesus and is a public confession and testimony that a person is making a commitment to put to death the sinful nature that is within them and is committed to following Christ. That the person is indeed repenting of their sins, confessing faith in front of witnesses. Water baptism symbolizes the death and burial of the old carnal self and its sinful nature. Romans 6 : 2 - 11 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus