appy

No church is perfect. Every church will have their high and low points that we agree with or disagree with. But it seems to me that since you are finding this pastor as unsatisfactory, as well as the church as a whole, that it would be best to move on to another church group that is more in line with your views.

There is nothing in Titus 1 that requires a man to have children before he is chosen to be an elder. What the verses are alluding to is the elder's overall character. If a man's children are unruly, what does it say about him? Unruly children are a reflection of the parents. As the saying goes "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Or "like father, like son". Verse 7 (NIV) says, Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless. We can concur that the whole chapter is touching on our character, ambassadorship, and witness in regard to the gospel message, and our relationship with God. Our character is a reflection of our relationship with Christ. When a person fails to show a wholesome life. It makes for a bad witness that drives people away from the gospel message.

I feel the passage below fits this topic. There are many, many excuses for not attending church, not just one excuse. One reason I can think that women are more apt to go to church, than men, is that they feel as Mary did about the importance of coming together as a body to learn, fellowship, worship and grow in God's grace. Mary sat with the disciples to listen to Jesus and certainly felt it more important than what Martha was concerned about. And what did Jesus say to Martha? That Mary had found something far more important than the finer details of life. Perhaps there are more men that are more concerned and preoccupied with the finer details of life instead of spiritual matters. Church attendance is each person's responsibility. The idea, that there is too many women, is just another excuse for not attending. Luke 10:38-42 38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” 41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

It was Jesus who said "it is finished". When Jesus died on the cross, the debt man owed is forever dealt with. There is nothing more we can do to secure our salvation. Man can NOT make the required atonement. Only Jesus could do that. All the prophecies were fulfilled and finished in the life, ministry, and death of the Lord Jesus. It is done, signed, and sealed because of the blood of Jesus. His death on the cross was the final sacrifice. Jesus is the final high priest and the final sacrifice. No other is needed. John 19:28-30 28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Huh? What is different today, than 1700 years ago... What has changed? The concept of the trinity is introduced in various places in the Old Testament and expounded on in the New Testament. Jesus spoke of the trinity in his earthly ministry. The concept of the trinity comes directly from scripture itself and taught by Jesus. The Jewish rabbi's fully understood the teaching of Jesus' claim to be God, and the teaching of the trinity of God. The concept, was unmistakable, for the Rabbi's wanted to stone Jesus. Along with the claims of Jesus to be equal to God, He also taught that the Holy Spirit had a similar identity. He used a single name to refer God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Matthew passage below, describes three persons, distinct in their own identity but equally the same in nature. Together, they share a name and authority as God. We agree that God is invisible and is up in heaven, we are down here on earth. He is infinite and we are finite. God is more complex than our human minds can comprehend, thus we should accept the doctrine of the trinity by faith, even though we are not fully able to comprehend it. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Now that I've had a bit of free time to check out the title and author of said movie, it isn't just a little bit of SDA background. It is a total SDA teaching. For the those that created said movie, are members of the SDA. This is their doctrinal view of future events. Their teachings are considered heresy by mainstream Christianity, be very wary of what you read and hear. Always take everything you read, see, or hear to the word of God.

This is what you should know about SDA doctrines and teachings. According to SDA doctrine and teachings, Christ acquired a sinful nature. This is false. Christ had a sinless human nature. Christ took our sin punishment, not our sin nature. They also teach in partial atonement, that Christ's death on the cross was not enough to redeem us. The bible teaches us that when Christ was hanging on the cross, he said “It is finished”. That means the finished work was on the cross, there is nothing more to be paid. His death on the cross, was the final atonement. “It is finished!” According to them, there is no assurance of salvation, even the the bible says we are guaranteed eternal life. They teach that, having the sins of all men laid on satan, assigns to satan an indispensable role in the blotting out of sins. This nullifies the all-sufficiency of the finished work of Christ. All of this contradicts scripture and their their teachings are a totally different gospel message than the one the Apostles taught in scripture. Their teachings are very deceptive in nature. The bible they read and teach from has been heavily modified to support Ellen G. White's writings, because they view her writings as authoritative.

A Christian does not come to be a Christian by sight, but by faith and trust, for God has chosen faith and trust as the way to Him. Faith requires that we accept, what we can not see with our eyes, or hold in our hands. You’ll know God is real when you ask him to be real in you. Cuba has an atheistic government and despite the very oppressive and cruel opposition Christians in Cuba experience, they worship God with passion and with great delight. Baptism is a public proclamation that one identifies with Christ. It is a public confession of faith. And in Cuba they face a world of constant persecution. Why do they make these public announcements in spite of being oppressed by the government? Because they have experienced a joy, that is beyond a human's ability to describe. It has no boundaries. And so, they overcame the fear of believing and trusting Christ to give them eternal life. Baptism in Cuba is not a private event, but a very public one, to be witnessed not only by Christians, but unbelievers as well. If you had been there and seen the faces of joy, as the new converts came up out of the water, declaring in front of all, their faith in Christ, you wouldn’t wonder if God was real in their lives, or if he could be real in yours. If God was not real to them, they would not go through the pain, suffering and humiliation of being associated with Christ. Don't let a pack of atheists convince you that God is beyond our experience.

Your not missing out on anything. That is a lie from Satan. And and as you have already discovered, it hurts their witness for Christ. If a man is not willing to wait till after you both say “I do”, he doesn't value you to begin with. And why should he, when he can test drive now? There is the lack of unconditional commitment and dedication to the relationship; which leaves you feeling vulnerable and changes everything about the dynamics of the relationship and there will always be question marks in the back of your mind of his commitment and sincerity to you. The same applies to women too. It goes both directions Waiting allows us to be sure we picked the right man or woman and that we’re actually committed to one other, making the relationship that extra special, not just there out of ease or convenience. The reward for waiting till wedding day is knowing in your heart that you heeded your parents advice. Because the relationship between you and the man you marry, will then be extra special with a lasting bond. People who give in to sexual temptation before marriage, experience guilt and regret, and you don't want to have this in the back of your mind. Waiting, will keep you free from this. As a Christian, it is best advised that the man you choose, is a committed Christian and Christ is central to him, and is of the same religion as you. Otherwise you two will be pulling in different directions when it comes to values and principals. And at the same time, don't set the bar so high in your expectations of the other, because if you are expecting the other to be perfect and never have flaws, you will be disappointed and never find anyone. In closing... run from sex sin, because it hurts you emotionally, physically, and spiritually. 1 Corinthians 6: 13 thru 20 (LB, a paraphrase) 13But sexual sin is never right: our bodies were not made for that but for the Lord, and the Lord wants to fill our bodies with himself. 14 And God is going to raise our bodies from the dead by his power just as he raised up the Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts and members of Christ? So should I take part of Christ and join him to a prostitute? Never! 16 And don’t you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute she becomes a part of him and he becomes a part of her? For God tells us in the Scripture that in his sight the two become one person. 17 But if you give yourself to the Lord, you and Christ are joined together as one person. 18 That is why I say to run from sex sin. No other sin affects the body as this one does. When you sin this sin it is against your own body. 19 Haven’t you yet learned that your body is the home of the Holy Spirit God gave you, and that he lives within you? Your own body does not belong to you. 20 For God has bought you with a great price. So use every part of your body to give glory back to God because he owns it.

The Bible nowhere mentions angels named Raphael or Phanuel nor does the bible talk about them. The only angels mentioned in the bible by name are Gabriel, and Michael. When it comes to spiritual matters, the bible itself is the go to authority. Not some literature outside of the bible. The OT apocrypha books and the book of Enoch are not canon for multiple of reasons. They were not considered canonical by the Jews of Jesus’s own time. No NT author cites even a single book from the Apocrypha as being God's word. None of the NT writers directly quote from them. An allusion is not the same as a direct quote. Jesus said the Scriptures were true and could not be broken. However the Apocrypha writings was not Scripture to Him. Since neither the Jews, Jesus, or His apostles considered these writings as part of the Old Testament neither should we.

When 1 John 4:1-3 speaks of testing the spirits, he is not referring to being able to recognize the difference between angels and demons per se, but in recognizing the attitude and spirit behind what people are saying or teaching and how they live. As others have pointed out, we need to read our bibles daily, so that we can spot what is false and what is true whether we are measuring a person or doctrines. The bible is the yardstick by which we use to measure with. A person that affirms Christ as the bible teaches, will place emphasis on Jesus, and direct others to Him. The example in Acts is a good example of how we are to test.... The Bereans, did NOT just blindly believe what Paul told them about the gospel. But checked to see if his words were the same as scripture. You test people by their view of Christ. And you test people by how they live. Do they demonstrate the characteristics of being regenerated? A person's validity comes from the doctrine of Christ. He or she will affirm that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, and they will place emphasis on Jesus, and direct others to Him. False teachers, and or false teachings contradict what the bible says, and the focus and emphasis is in the direction of immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed. However, when measuring a person or doctrine/teaching, We must be careful when observing others, because we may not have the full story. For some, they might just be beginning their walk in Christ. We don't want them to start doubting their salvation, or they may stop trusting Christ. Everyone is at different places in their walk with Christ. And no one is ever immune to temptation and sin.

No one is denying that angels are mentioned in scripture. But that, there is NO mention in scripture specifically of an angel named “Phanuel”, or that he “presides over repentance, and hope”. This is only found in the book of Enoch.

Well, as you can see, a lot of people do NOT agree and are NOT likeminded, in regard to the book itself or its teachings. Some agree, but most do not. And as Pat said, This is Pats opinion, I on the other hand agree with kelly, that it is a blasphemous book, not just a heretical book. And there is a really good reason it is excluded from canon. I posted one verse from it and that verse says it all, of why it is excluded. This is not the first discussion where this book is concerned. Past threads have been debated.

I put NO stock in the book of Enoch period, nor am I interested in any of the Apocrypha writings. Why should I believe that man's sin came from the fallen angels, when scripture says otherwise? Since you are set on this idea, the burden is on you to show me why I should believe this. Scripture itself, supersedes any outside writings.

God designed us with the need and desire to fellowship and worship God. I posted pages back, that when man pushed God away, his heart became foolish, and man was always thinking up new ways to sin in order to fulfill what was inherent in his nature. This is in the bible. Its like your looking for a way out from being held accountable for sins committed, by blaming evil entities, because without them, man could not of possibly committed all these different sins. Adam when he sinned, was held accountable period, in spite of Satan being the instigator. Adam tried to get out of being held accountable, by first blaming it on Eve, then on God. And your post here, certainly parallels this by the insistence that man could not possibly of learned to sin all on his own. And yet in Genesis 6, God does not say that the fallen angels are the blame. He lays the blame squarely at the feet of mankind. Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.

Realize that the word gnostic, means "hidden knowledge". Man is always wanting to know more than God wants us to know. And the gnostics in bible times were certainly steeped in occultic leanings from the get go. Gnostic works feed that desire to have a so called knowledge, that no one else has, as if they have an edge over other people knowledge wise. The book of Enoch comes from the gnostics. It is safe to say this, since the book itself, reads like all other gnostic work.

From the following quote from the book of Enoch, I can see why one poster called the entire book blasphemous. There is much contradiction between the book of Enoch and the inspired word of God, that I can agree it is the writings and work of gnostics. As I said earlier in the thread, we can compare Paul and Jude's conversations with their opponents, like that of Christian apologists of today citing an atheistic author in a debate against an atheist. It is JESUS that is the hope of eternal life. Any claim to the contrary is not only a heretical teaching, but blasphemous for it attributes the work of God to an evil entity. Think I'm pulling your leg, go look this up. Enoch 40:9 The second is he who presides over every suffering and every affliction of the sons of men, the holy Raphael. The third, who presides over all that is powerful, is Gabriel. And the fourth, who presides over repentance, and the hope of those who will inherit eternal life, is Phanuel

The fact is, anybody can entice another person into sin, whether intentionally or unintentionally. But really, people do not have to be enticed by another person. A person can fool himself, as well as lure himself into sin, by following his own desires of whats already in his/her heart. Because of Adam's one sin, all men, thereafter have the propensity to sin. The propensity, is not taught, it is already there. According to Romans 1 God has hardwired into us the knowledge of Himself, and the awareness of right and wrong. That all human beings have sufficient knowledge of what is right and wrong written on their hearts. James 1:14, 15 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.… Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

You hit the nail on the head.

I agree with a Jewish scholar when he said that the book of Enoch simply allowed the Jews in the time between the Old and New Testaments to blame and attribute evil on spirits that are themselves the result of an angelic transgression against God’s will. Rather than on mankind's propensity to sin, which we inherited from Adam. (mankind's true condition) No where in scripture does it even hint that the fallen angels taught men different sins. Instead scripture teaches that men began to worship creation, etc.... because man walked away from God. Nothing about because evil beings taught them things against God's will. Scripture lays the blame of the presence of sin, squarely at the feet of mankind For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. Move down to verse 28 28And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong. So which book should we heed? The bible or Enoch? That which teaches us what sin is and what to do about it. As I said earlier, the Apostles and Jesus, NEVER regarded the Apocryphal books as scriptures. The bottom line, if God had wanted those rejected books to be in the canon, they would be in the canon. But they are not. I think the biggest objection people in general speaking have to the op, is the fact of teaching from an Apocrypha book instead of from scripture itself. And we can learn more from actual scripture and the Holy Spirits leading.

kelly's point in his discussion with me alone isn't homing in on the topic of Enoch, but on members ganging up on one individual. Which he sees was unnecessary and uncalled for. The rest of this post is a reply to @Kelly2363 forum moderators volunteer their time, and are not online 24/7 as they have jobs and families to tend to. It is helpful to all, that if there is a problem post to report it, instead of making it a personal mission to defend someone. Because in doing so, the defender ends up getting personal in their pursuit. Believe me, as soon as a forum mod is online, they will get a notification of a complaint and deal with the offender, that is why they are here, volunteering their time. Willa has been here a really long time and is a well respected member of this community. Sometimes people get a little too passionate to defend a side, an opinion, or another community member; and often post in haste without giving just that little extra thought into what was currently said before hitting the submit button. It happens. We are human. We've all have had days when we are not showing love. And I agree, that giving a tongue lashing in the heat of the discussion isn't showing the best side of ourselves.

No one is trying to silence anyone. Debate is allowed, as long as the discussion doesn't get personal. When it does, the forum moderator's will step in. So far, the discussion has remained civil. Just that there is a lot of disagreement in regard to the Apocryphal books. I myself, do NOT care for those books. To me, they read more like our modern day fiction books than the inspired word of God, and I put NO stock in them. There may be a wee bit of truth in them, but they are NOT infallible writings.

Sorry to hear you don't feel well. Its not you Willa, you didn't create any misunderstanding. There is nothing wrong with your post or how you phrased it. People in general speaking, really, really want to believe that those Apocrypha books are on par with scripture. I'm sure your already in agreement with the following, but here goes A lot of their belief or “proof” comes mostly from the Jude quote. The letter of Jude is one of rebuke and stern criticism aimed at arrogant church members who set themselves up against Jude. He begins with their misunderstanding, arrogance, and presumption in regard to a given passage in scripture. The story of the exchange between the devil and the arch angel is not even in scripture. Scripture itself, says, God took care of the burial of Moses. There is no dispute that Jude quoted an outside source, but its an assumption that the story and quote came from Enoch, for there were in bible times multiple outside sources just as there are endless books today in Christian books stores. Jude does not say, one way or the other where the story came from, so it is a guess and assumption that it came from Enoch. And Jude does NOT quote the book, verbatim. The assumed “prophecy of Enoch” itself, is not recorded anywhere in the canonical Old Testament. One thing we know for sure is that Jesus and the Apostles NEVER endorsed extra biblical sources as scripture. People in today's world put high esteem on the Apocrypha books, and I'm sure there were some in the early church that put high esteem on extra biblical sources for which Jude used those sources on his adversaries to indict the very pride in them. We can compare Paul and Jude's conversations like that of Christian apologists of today citing an atheistic author in a debate against an atheist.

This video, and three others, I've posted here are part of a post in the general discussion forum. They have been posted here, because video's are only allowed in the video forum and are not to be posted elsewhere on worthy.

Regarding ancient structures, why is it so hard for people to understand the principles and laws of math, weights, levers, measures, rollers, and pulley's ? One can move very huge or heavy objects with NON modern equipment. While I'm on the subject, cranes for the most part employ levers and pulleys, It’s not uncommon for large cranes to lift loads of nearly 40,000 pounds. I've posted four video's in the general video forum demonstrating simple methods for moving heavy objects. But of course, believing a 30 foot tall alien from outer space or a evil being did all this is more exciting and mysterious and even entertaining, than the fact that God gave us ordinary humans, intelligence and ingenuity to move large objects or build seemingly impossible structures. We can push or pull more than we can ever physically carry. As for the op, I don't see anywhere in the canonical scripture that any “evil entities” were the blame for X sins or that they even suggested such. Mankind is very good at passing the buck so to speak, in an attempt to avoid any or all responsibility for his / her part where sin is concerned. Adam very quickly first blamed Eve, then God. Eve, blamed satan... and of course the buck so to speak stopped at Satan. And yet, in spite of Satan being the instigator, Adam and Eve were still held accountable. God intended for mankind to have fellowship with him, through worship, adoration and honoring God, as God. And when we do not honor God for who he is, we will invariably worship other things and give free indulgence to our own sinful desires. The book of Romans speaks of this fact. So we don't need to be taught certain sins by some evil entity. Sin is effectually curbed when we have a willingness to honor God as God and being delighted with His perfections. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270232-lifting-a-heavy-object-without-using-any-modern-technology/ https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270223-lifting-a-railcar-with-a-simple-bottle-jack/ https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270221-moving-large-stones/