douggg

Diaste, do you mean "Roman" instead of "Rome"? If so, I would agree that the fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire - and not "Rome" Charlie uses Rome because he maintains that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist/beast. So Charlie says pagan Rome and papal Rome in building his case. The four kingdoms are... The Babylon empire, the Medo-Persian empire, the Greek empire, the Roman empire.

No that is not the 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event, because there is no changing of them who are alive "in Christ" in Revelation 20:4-6. The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ". -------------------------------- The dead "in Christ" in the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 are all Christians who have died up to the time the event takes place. There is nothing in 1Thesslaonians5:15-18 about the dead "in Christ" being the great tribulation martyrs. The rapture/resurrection event will take place before the great tribulation begins. keras, please try to control your emotions. Instead, post a copy of the 1989 REB verse of John 3:13 that you use.

Charlie, the Revelation latter days basis for the big picture timeline chart begins here... Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. kjv

Charlie, begin to make yourself a timeline of latter days events that will lead up to Jesus's Return. The timeline will present the big picture for yourself and others, when you are all done.

Charlie, the messages to the 7 church's are a part of the 1000 pieces. The big picture is Jesus is Returning and there are events to take place right before then in Revelation 6-19. You have not gotten to the big picture chapters yet. Wait till you get through Revelation 6-19 before attempting to present the big picture.

Charlie, you were speaking about structure for the rest of Revelation when you wrote... "Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed?" Then you asked for comments. And I commented that the bulk of the rest of Revelation, chapters 6-19, are for the latter days, when Jesus will return. And I provide the structural framework of Ezekiel 39, in the form of a timeline chart, of when those events in Revelation, chapters 6-19 will take place.

keras, please try to control your emotions. When are you going to provide a copy and paste of John 3:13 from the 1989 REB translation you are using ? The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ". Revelation 12:14, therefore, is not the rapture/resurrection event. --------------------------------------- 1Thessalonians: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. kjv

The three basic books of reference for the latter days are: (1) the chapters in Daniel that have latter days, time of the end in them. (2) Ezekiel 39 (3) Matthew 24:15-31 (4) Revelation 6-19 The timeline framework which all of the events will fit into is Ezekiel 39. Start in upper left corner and follow the arrow to lower right corner, of this chart I made. Here are the events filled into that framework. Just follow the red line from upper left corner to lower right corner. Each event is noted with the appropriate reference scripture(s).

Jesus will be in heaven until Revelation 19. In Revelation 6:12-17, the sixth seal, Jesus is still in heaven, as his appearance there appears to them here on the earth as the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Matthew 24:30a). Matthew 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. kjv ------------------------------ Here in the sixth seal, they are in great fear, when they see the sign of the Son of man in heaven. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? kjv ----------------------------- Here in Revelation 19, after being convinced in Revelation 16:13-16 to make war on Jesus, they have gathered to make war on Jesus. Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. kjv

The rapture/resurrection event is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ". There is no resurrection in Revelation 12:14. It is not the rapture/resurrection event. Revelation 12:14 is referring to them (the Jews) living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see that abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, Matthew 24:15-21. btw, when copying and pasting a scriptural verse, please include the translation at the end - like kjv for example. If you are posting a scriptural verse from the 1989 REB - then include 1989 REB .

William, in his statement, Keras is using present tense "goes", but he is implying future tense "will go" in his no rapture to heaven position. While in the kjv , Jesus said "hath", i.e. has, past tense. Of course at the time Jesus made that statement no man was yet "in Christ". When the rapture/resurrection event takes place, it will be for the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ", changed and resurrected into everlasting eternal bodies to forever be with Lord. So will Jesus be in heaven while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth ? The answer is "yes" , and that is where the raptured/resurrected in Christ will be also.

No man was "in Christ" at the time of Jesus saying in John 3:13... 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. kjv Please provide the 1989 REB verse that you use. And annotate it, "1989 REB" like I did above for the King James Version.

1Corinthians12: 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. kjv Was that man in Christ consciously aware of being in the third heaven ? I think he had a body, but not the same as his earthly body. "such an one caught up" i.e such as one raptured - to the third heaven.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. kjv Some translations say "frightening". imo, it implies dictatorship for each of the four kingdoms. Charlie, you should notate right after you copy and paste a verse(s) the translation... like I just did above for the King James Version.

That is not my interpretation, nor saying, nor position. My position is the Lord's prayer. "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is heaven". .

Before going to verses 31-33, the key verse in Daniel 2 is... 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; kjv The bottom line objective is to reveal what shall be in the latter days. Okay, Charlie, please take us through your interpretation to the latter days. ------------------------------------------------ The ten toes are ten latter days kings of the Roman Empire of the latter days. Which in the latter days, God will setup His Kingdom on earth, which will stand forever.

Because of the supernatural destruction of Gog's armies, it will undermine the Muslim belief that Allah will prevail in his destruction of Israel. And that the God of Israel, the Jews, is the One True God and not Muhammed's god Allah. It will create a religious crisis that Islam will never recover from. btw, it will not be solely local, verse 6 below. Ezekiel 39: 6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

no.

When I made my single line prayer to God, alone one on one, about Jesus being His Way, earnest yet theologically simple - "God, if Jesus is Your Way, then I accept Him" - God responded as soon as the words left my lips, and I was instantly borne again by the power of the Holy Spirit. It changed me forever. Even though at the time, theologically speaking, I had not heard about being born again, yet I experienced it. So the answer is yes, and the Holy Spirit will be with me forever, in my soul forever. My soul has been redeemed. I await the rapture/resurrection for my body to be redeemed, the blessed hope in Christ. My deep relationship with God can be described as Believe God, Love God, Trust God. God is Wonderful, full of Love, mercy, and grace. --------------------------------------------------------- Yes, your chart, I was able to view. I know that there are many who consider the 70 weeks over. Also another large group who consider only half of the 70th week is still future. I don't hold either of those particular views. Here is my chart...

Well, it only took me about fifty years to put it all together - smiles. I am 74, almost 75. I made it in July of 2020. Yes, I am dead set with it. But I will discuss any part of it. I am humble about it because I realize that I am no-body. I have many other charts and illustrations to convey certain other biblical concepts as well. But if I had to choose just one, that one I posted and you downloaded (I am happy that you did) would be it.

No. Here is a timeline chart I made of the 7 year 70th week. It contains the events of the person becoming the Antichrist, and thereby beginning a false messianic age of peace and safety - during which time, many Christians will fall away from believing Jesus is the messiah. Then the Antichrist will commit the Transgression of Desolation (ToD) act of 2Thesslanonians2:4, revealing himself to be the man of sin and not the messiah after all. Just follow the red line, starting from the upper left corner to lower right corner. I put the scriptural references beside each event.

The reason they will be saying that in Revelation 13 is because the beast-king will have just killed the two witnesses (but haven't yet come back alive). The world will be relieved because the two witnesses who will have been issuing the plagues will have been killed. The two witnesses will be killed on day 1260 (the length of their prophesying time, Revelation 11:3) 3 1/2 days later, they come back to life and ascend up to heaven. --------------------------------------------------- Let's delve further.... So with a little math.... 1260 + 3 1/2 = 1263 1/2, leaving 1256 1/2 days left in the 2520 day 7years. That 1256 1/2 days is the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 that the beast king will rule - in the absence of the two witnesses. The 42 months is also the time that the nations will "tread under foot" Jerusalem as stated in Revelation 11:2, under the reign of the beast-king. --------------------------------------------------- Because the 42 months as used in Revelation is a "nominal" expression, it is not "exactly" equal to 1260 days. To help illustrate the difference between "nominal" and "exact" expressions, 2x4 lumber in the U.S. is not actually 2 inches x 4 inches - but 1 1/2 inches x 3 1/2 inches when measured by a rule. All woodworkers, carpenters, reading this, know what I am speaking of. 2x4 is a "nominal" expression. ------------------------------------------ So here is what we can do...regarding the 7 years... dividing it up into two 1260 day halves. first half (1260 days) 1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 second half (1260 days) 42 months (1256.5 days + 3 1/2 days), Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 time/times/half time (1260 days +war in heaven time) Revelation 12:14, Daniel 11:25, Daniel 12:7. By the time-frames, we can therefore arrange events as they take place - to give us a picture of what is going to happen and when.

Because when that person becomes the King of Israel thought-to-be-messiah, he will speak against Jesus being the messiah and also against Jesus being the Son of God. That same spirit - attitude if you will - is what some in John's day were already beginning to exhibit when they departed from being a Christian to being a critic of Jesus as being the Son of God, i.e. critic of the Father and Son relationship, of Jesus coming out from the Father to create all things. -------------------------------------------------- Of course there have been many such person all down through history as you have pointed out. One recent example would be Yusuf Estes who once was a preacher, but left Christianity to become a Muslim. He has many videos on You Tube. That person exhibits the spirit of Antichrist.

The beast who makes war on the two witnesses will be the beast-king, a human, who will be possessed by the spirit of the Garden of Eden serpent. Here is a graphic I made of that event.

That would mean that Islam would still be intact at that time. But Gog/Magog will be the end of Islam. Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon (Ezekiel 39:17-20), then Jesus having returned to earth (Ezekiel 39:21-29). ------------------------------------------ Why would Muslims assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus ? They believe that Isa (their version of Jesus, abeit a perverted view of him they have) will return and destroy the dajjal (their version of the Antichrist). Also, to destroy us Christians because we say that Jesus is the Son of God.