ENOCH2010

No one is as blind as one who refuses to see

Enoch 2021, ( to use a boxing term ) You didn't lay a glove on any point that Matt36 made, you only show that you are unwilling to see the error of your doctrine. If you are going to use Rev. 22 v 18-19 as a threat to someone you better be sure your doctrine can stand the same judgement. The Bible plainly says the first resurrection happens at the Lords second coming, but the pre-tribbers add a resurrection before the tribulation starts so the rapture can happen pre-trib.

Enoch 2021 you can't be serious in saying that Luke 21:9-12 and Matt 24:6-9 aren't describing the same events. Lord help you I'm done, it's a waste of time. The old saying comes to mind, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Enoch 2021 which resurrection is the church raptured with, and please show the scripture that describes it.

Are you Tim lahaye << (not sure of spelling) if not I'm sure you know who I'm talking about, you have his opinion down pat.

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

Take your blinders off and read what the Bible says, not what you have been told is says by Margret M. in the 1800's

Brother Enoch 2021, You might ought take your own advice, no where in that verse does it say the bride is in heaven with the Lord. Granted a lot of the believers are, they have been dying for the past 2000 years to get there. No where does the Bible say they were raptured there pre-trib. You are stating your opinion as " IT " is the word of God, when it's not.

Nobody is undermining the word of God here, people are disagreeing with your interpretation of the Word of God.

OK Marv I didn't mean to upset the faithful

You know what I noticed in reading this thread, the pre-trib crowd was eager to jump on board with this line of thought. I don't see any post- tribbers jumping on board.

All those resurrections you list happened well before the book of revelation was written, so why would John count them with the 2 resurrections spoken about in chapter 20. He didn't, he doesn't even count the resurrection of the 2 witnesses of revelation in his list, he only lists the 2 resurrections in context with the second coming as the first resurrection (prior to the 1000 year reign) and the second resurrection(after the 1000 year reign), so why should we add all those resurrections into the first. The sooner the pre-trib camp realizes their doctrine is false, the better they will be. The Bible says nothing about a pre-trib resurrection, so there can't be a pre-trib rapture. The Bible plainly tells of a post trib resurrection at the second coming called the first resurrection, there is the rapture in plain KJV English. Rev. 20

Gods Word says only 2 resurrections, it says nothing about phases.

The martyrs under the alter started with Steven and that group continues to grow daily, that group will include those killed during the tribulation

That's 4 first resurrections for the just and 1 for the unjust in your pre-trib doctrine marv, you can add as many as you want in this forum but Gods word says only 2, and they are both after the tribulation.

Marv, you know the Bible doesn't say that, that is your opinion.

Marv, you and I have this discussion before, brother you are among the group that wants to add a resurrection so your belief in the pre-trib doctrine is feasible. We might ought to go with what the Bible says," let Gods Word be true and every mans a liar."

The Bible lists 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remaining, the rapture verses say the dead in Christ rise first then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. What we have here in Rev. 20 shows when these 2 resurrections happen, the only problem is the pre-trib doctrine teaches of a resurrection happening before the tribulation so the church can skip out before the tribulation starts, the problem is the Bible doesn't say anything about such a resurrection. We might ought to go with what the Bible says, not what some feel good doctrine teaches.

See what I mean Spock. He don't want to hear anything that rebuts the pre-trib doctrine

If you except it, it will set you free. If a person doesn't except it, they would rather not hear it.

The truth saddens most people, most of the time.

The only way for pre-tribbers to have a rapture before the second coming is they have to add a resurrection prior to the 2 the Bible teaches in Rev.20, and we all know what the Bible says about adding to the book. But it seems they all are willing to add a resurrection so they can get outa here before the Lord's second coming.

The group coming with the Lord spoken about in Rev. 19 isn't the whole bride, that group has been dying for the past 2000 years or so.(that is how they got with the Lord, not some pre-trib rapture) The bride (as people call it) won't be complete until the group that refuse the mark of the beast join in. You quoted it yourself Rev.7:14 they have white robes that have been washed it the Blood of the Lamb just like the bride. The rapture (the first resurrection) happens at the second coming as described in Rev. 20 or are you another pre-tribber that believes more than 1 first resurrection. If you are maybe you can show me where in the Bible it describes the other first resurrection.

Christ led all the old testament saints home at his resurrection. Scripture does not say that. Are you referring to Matt. 27:51-53? I don't see where ALL old testament saints were led home at the resurrection of Christ. What do you mean by home? Many bodies of the saints were raised after the resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many. I'd be careful not to read too much into that. Are you suggesting that they also ascended to heaven with Jesus as well? Do you think they have already received an eternal glorified body? I don't think so. Scripture really doesn't give us a whole lot to go on, so I wouldn't assume such things. Lazarus was raised to life again as well, and he more than likely died again as well. I have found some scripture that may relate to why some were raised to life again after Christ' resurrection, to obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:32-40 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[f] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. But again, there is not enough information to draw a solid conclusion. Who knows, maybe these are the elders that lived before the Mosaic law? We will never know some things until we get there. The next resurrection will happen right before the rapture, not at the physical second coming. For those who are ready will be attending the wedding supper, so the second coming can not be immediately after the rapture. I believe what some people call the rapture is actually the second coming. I can't find in scripture anywhere of a third coming.

Christ led all the old testament saints home at his resurrection. The next resurrection will happen at the second coming of Christ (called the first resurrection) then after the 1000 year reign, the second resurrection happens prior to the final judgment. That's what the Bible says, it's simple if people don't try to add a resurrection for the pre-trib rapture.