Daniel59

OK, got it thanks, I figured something to that effect, just struck me funny. actually was considering the creator of an entity so as flesh could have a grasp or human figure to picture to help in the understanding Spirit of God . But i prefer "...the beginning of God's creation." Thanks everyone.

Ok, I’m having trouble wrapping my flesh brain around this scripture. 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:14 (KJV) John is writing of Jesus words here in Revelations. I understand Jesus is God, God is infinite, God is the creator of everything, etc.. I get way past a flesh image of life and have a more comfortable and confident view of spiritual life. But for some reason this passage sticks with me, having trouble grasping it. Any one care to help? Ok, so Jesus is God, Jesus sits at the right hand, meaning the force behind, the teacher, the lord, the rule maker, the sacrifice, etc… But “the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:14” Jesus / God is the creation of God?

Thank you also, I will heed your warning and and appreciative that you stayed calm with wisdom I see you answered my OP question which is a tremendous help Thanks again

I am not stating two creations , merely that God commanded The Us whoever they are, created man/women through or with God, and God creaated a man whom he placed in the Garden. Not sure about when the Garden was created but it seems seperate timing as God Placed the Man whom He created in it. Still 6 day creation, still sinlless, just that Let Us Create Man in Our Image is a seperate event than God creating a man in his image. Still all Gods creation. Thanks, Daniel, this is a good example for us to look at. So you are not stating two creations, you are stating that in Ge 1:27 God commanded the "us" of Ge 1:26, and so they are separate events, because the "us" of 1:26 indicates to you someone outside the Godhead (Trinity), which the "God" of 1:27 does not. So let's see if that is in agreement with the Word of God written, and if our understanding is correct. 1) Ge 1:26 states, "God said, 'Let us create man in our image. . .' " However, this wording shows that God didn't command the "us" in Ge 1:27, God included himself in the "us" in Ge 1:26, He is the "us" of Ge 1:26, and the "God" of Ge 1:27. Ge 1:27 is simply God performing his intention spoken in Ge 1:26. I don't think Scripture can be said to support God commanding in Ge 1:27 the "us" of Ge 1:26. 2) Both Ge 1:26 and 1:27 refer to creating man. If they are separate events, would they not be separate creations, making it two creations? But you disagree with two creations. 3) The only "us" revealed in the Word of God to be involved in creation was the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity (Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3). Now God's rule to protect us from error regarding his Word written is 1Co 4:6 - "Do not go beyond what is written." So that makes the three previous Scriptures the boundary of our knowledge regarding who was involved in creation; viz., the Son of God. And we must not enlarge the boundaries of God's revelation, if we want to remain in his truth. So Scripture does not support the "us" referring to someone outside the Godhead. 4) The Hebrew word used in Ge 1:26 is adam, "Let us make man in our image." It is the same Hebrew word used in Ge 2:20, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." So I don't think Scripture can be said to suppport "the man" of Ge 1 and the "Adam" of Ge 2 as different men. 5) The Word of God states in in 1Co 15:45 that Adam was the first man. So there could have been no other man before Adam. Likewise Scripture shows no other creation after Adam and Eve. There being no other man, it is this Adam who was created by the "us" in Ge 1:26 and the "God" in Ge 1:27, and the same Adam who was placed in the garden in Ge 2:15. Scripture limits the man of Ge 1:26 and 1:27 and Ge 2 to Adam, the first and only man created. So again, I don't think Scripture can be said to support the existence of other humans prior to Adam and Eve, nor the creation of other humans after Adam and Eve. 6) Ge 2:8 states that God had already created the garden before he created Adam, and placed him there in Ge 2:15. So again, because Adam was the first (1Co 15:45) and only man created, it is the same man as Ge 1:26 and 1:27, where the Garden of Eden is not mentioned. I don't think Scripture can be said to support the man placed in the Garden in Ge 2:15 being different from the man in Ge 1:26 or 1:27. So Ge 1:26 and 1:27 cannot be separate events because in Ge 1:27, "God" does not command the "us" of Ge 1:26; in Ge 1:27, "God" is the "us" of Ge 1:26, as the wording of 1:26 clearly shows; Ge 1:26 and 1:27 both relate the creation of "man," which would make two separate creations, with which you do not agree; the "us" of Ge 1:26 and the "God" of Ge 1:27 are one and the same; i.e., the Godhead, Father and Son (Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3); the Hebrew word for "the man" and for "Adam" are the same, so "the man" of Ge 1 and the "Adam" of Ge 2 are one and the same man; Adam was the first human created (1Co 15:45), and the Word of God reveals no others created after Adam and Eve; therefore, Ge 1:26 and 1:27, as well as Ge 2, all relate the same event, the creation of "Adam," the first and only "man" created. The Word of God does not support two separate events, but supports only one and the same event in the creation accounts of Ge 1 and Ge 2. And remember what I pointed out earlier. You stated that just because one could find Scriptures to support one's position did not mean the position was correct. However, the Scriptures presented did not truly support the position, so they were not an example of having Scriptural support for a position that was not correct. And you won't be able to find an example of having Scriptural support for a position that is not correct. Scripture is the truth of God, and if the Scriptures (understood in conformity with all Scripture) really do support a position, then the position is indeed the truth. That you were not looking for this still leaves us with uncertainty as to its author. The Holy Spirit shows you something, and the Holy Spirit shows someone else just the opposite of what he shows you. Now both can't be true. So how do we know which is the Holy Spirit, and which is the product of a human mind? The plumb line and standard of measure is the Word of God written. And that is the plumb line I am using here to measure what you present. So three things to go by: 1) The Word of God written is the only plumb line and measure of God's truth. 2) The Word of God must be understood in the light of all the Word of God if our understanding of it is to be God's truth. 3) "Do not go beyond what is written," in God's truth. (1Co 4:6) I hope this helps to answer your question of how we can know what is correct when things that differ are presented to us. So if you want to be in God's truth on creation, you must reckon with his Word written in 1 Co 4:6, 15:45; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3, which Scriptures do not support, and are contrary to, your extra-Biblical understanding of creation. Cordially, Eleanor Eleanor, Again I cannot thank you enough for your time, wisdom, patience and these scriptures. I will study them and pray my answers are there Thank you

Ok I searched serpent seed theology last night and Arnold Murray was mentioned so I must have found what you are referncing. According to the writing Adam and Eve ere involve in some kind of sexual ritual with the serpant in the Garden including Homosexual acts. Read Me Clear. I reject this Idea, thought, teaching, interpretation, implication wholy. I do not believe in this. So no I do not believe in serpant seed theoligy. Sin was transfered through Adam and Eve to Cain. Spiritually. The serpent, beguiled Eve, I read this as seduced, tricked etc… But temptation was already there as with Adam For God told Adam the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden. Yet he also did eat. Hope this clarifies Thanks Men as trees doctrine. I will admit this has crossed my mind, again, I know of no specific theology or doctrine. But as most are familiar people are described as trees in quite a few places in the scripture, and as well I believe the tree of Life is representative of Jesus, and the tree of knowledge is of Satan. Again ultimately these are spiritually. So that is where I stand based on my study. What I have never found and would like to know is how this teaching became Eve eating an apple; I just don’t see how this can be inferred. I would love to see it. I could see fruit, but Apple? Thanks

The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time. Ah' so we get at the Kenite decpetion and the Truth of the matter. You believe in Serpent Seed Theology. Is this True? If there is such a theoligy I guess I would agree depending on what it is I agree there were Kenites, as described in the scriptures, I believe they were decendents of Cain, I believe they were scribes I believe they were as all poeple good and bad, I believe Cain was the first murderer as Jesus describes and Those who claim they are Jews but are not are the same decendents. If that is what you are refering to I say Its yes. thanks Explain where these other people came from. Who is the us, is it the angels and was satan involved? here is what I previously wrote, nothing about Satan thanks

The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time. Ah' so we get at the Kenite decpetion and the Truth of the matter. You believe in Serpent Seed Theology. Is this True? If there is such a theoligy I guess I would agree depending on what it is I agree there were Kenites, as described in the scriptures, I believe they were decendents of Cain, I believe they were scribes I believe they were as all poeple good and bad, I believe Cain was the first murderer as Jesus describes and Those who claim they are Jews but are not are the same decendents. If that is what you are refering to I say Its yes. thanks

Eleanor Again I thank you for your patience, time and wisdom. I couldn’t agree more.-That which you have stated. And in my heart this reading fulfills that test, What it doesn’t do is agree with mans teaching I also agree. I have not added to the word, changed anything. In fact it confirms much of what is written and mans common teaching does not resolve.. Thank you

Dave is not discussing apples with you, and they hardly apply to the "argument" you present, which goes far further than fruit. He is attempting to instruct you, and knowing him as I do, I consider him eminently qualified to do so. Now lets talk about the three wise men, a far more important matter than apples. (see what I am getting at?) Blessings 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, (Fisherman) and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (hunters) agrees with other races, land of Nod, Cains wife, and more 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. agrees with the Garden of Eden creates the lineage of Jesus,, Bible is tracking of preservation of this seed Why would this not be construed as two different Fleshly creations? The us created man in our image and God created man in his Image. Of Course God created everything But we are talking the Flesh not spirit. perhaps the Us is the angels? I wont speculate. I am aware and have always understood the US in that scripture to be Jesus But that is interpretation and assumption as Jesus in the Flesh, is the son, the living word. To me this would answer much of the first few problems in Genesis, I am fairly read in the scripture, and I have seen more weaving and swerving to simple questions as to where the land of Nod or Cain’s wife came from. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. Gen 4:16-17 (KJV) According to iscripture Cain was the first born along with Abel whom he mudered. But my reading explains Nod, wife, and how this isn't an error to have sin enter into the world. After all, we were all predestined. I guess what I’m saying is unless you read it the way I see this. You would have to add to the scripture to explain Cain’s lineage as a result of departure of the Garden all the way through the Kenites. I believe Cain was part of the plan. Not an error by God. This is just one of the things I see in the OP scripture. Well, Daniel, you've certainly generated a lot of comment. And I understand your intention not to argue. But let's just honestly examine all this in the light of the whole Bible, okay? The problem I see here is that a need for solution (to land of Nod, Cain's wife) is driving your theology and causing you to interpret Scripture in the light of a solution, rather than in the light of itself. That's called eisegesis, reading meaning into the Scriptures to agree with our theology. That is opposed to exegesis, which reads meaning out of the Scriptures to form our theology. Keep in mind that Scripture does not answer every logistical question. A more likely explanation for Cain's wife would be one of his sisters. There is no prohibition against such recorded in Scripture prior to the time of Moses. Sarah, afterall, was Abraham's half sister (Ge 20:12). Also keep in mind that Genesis was recorded by Moses ~2,400 years after it occurred. He could well have used a reference to Nod because it was in existence at the time he recorded Genesis. Granted, Scripture reports none of these things, but these observations are not contrary to Scripture, as is the case with your thesis that the world was destroyed prior to the time of Noah, etc. So back to your thesis. I don't really understand what you are saying. Would you kindly state what you are proposing regarding two creations. Cordially, Eleanor I am not stating two creations , merely that God commanded The Us whoever they are, created man/women through or with God, and God creaated a man whom he placed in the Garden. Not sure about when the Garden was created but it seems seperate timing as God Placed the Man whom He created in it. Still 6 day creation, still sinlless, just that Let Us Create Man in Our Image is a seperate event than God creating a man in his image. Still all Gods creation. I agree it would appear as I was looking for this, however to be honest, It never crossed my mind, I assure you I have prayed on this and examened many aspects, I never had any disagreement with common teachings. Like I originally wrote, and the premis to my question. Do I dare challange what I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me? As I dig I just find more answers then questions other than of course the common teaching. Thanks

Hi, Dave - I re-read the OP, and I am not sure he actually claimed sin entered through anyone other than Adam. It looks to me like he is saying the Lord created many men, and one of them brought sin into the world. Thank you for the clarification, yes All men were sinless at that point. And it was good. all were created innocent of sin, perhaps they may heve been the trees in the forest. thank you for your time also.

The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time.

Dave is not discussing apples with you, and they hardly apply to the "argument" you present, which goes far further than fruit. He is attempting to instruct you, and knowing him as I do, I consider him eminently qualified to do so. Now lets talk about the three wise men, a far more important matter than apples. (see what I am getting at?) Blessings Thank you for your time also. I am not trying to change the subject, simply pointing out inconsistancies in the teachings of Traditions verses what the words actually say. And my intention is not to argue, I simply see these words, and as I read them they answer at least a couple of simple questiions. Where did the Land of Nod come from. and where did Cains wife come from, remember we are focusing on just a few scriptures to keep it simple.So again I say, as I see it, my reading answers those questions without dancing or creating myth. Peace to you also

Grace to you, You've got a huge problem in dealing with scripture like this when you exegete a passage the way that you have done. Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I would say that the Holy Spirit hasn't shown you anything at all when you deny Apostolic Authority, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church history. Peace, Dave Thank you for response. I see this as no contridiction nor exageration I would say clearer understanding of those passages with a lot of supporting scripture. and as for me not being led by the Holy spirit v Apostolic Authority, what is thier explaination of theses couple questions without adding or dancing. again thanks Apostolic Authority, like the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church History are safe guidlines in determining whether or not you are exegeting the Word of God correctly and being guided by the Holy Spirit or whether or not you are a lone ranger off on a rabbit trail. God will never contradict His own Word. Apostolic Authority is determined by whether or not you are adhering to the original Apostles teachings as handed to them by God Himself and adminstrated by the Guiding of His Holy Spirit. So far you disagree with them and the Word of God, not to mention Historical Orthodox Christianity. Therefore, you have a huge problem. Peace, Dave Again I agree with you to a point, however where am I contradicting the words in the Bible? It may be that you dont agree with what I see, But I do not see a contradiction, perhaps in teaching, but not in the Letter from our Lord. But then again, theres is no apple in the Bible either and so many believe that is what Eve ate. So who is adding to the word? Thank you for time. Peace to you

Grace to you, You've got a huge problem in dealing with scripture like this when you exegete a passage the way that you have done. Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I would say that the Holy Spirit hasn't shown you anything at all when you deny Apostolic Authority, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church history. Peace, Dave Thank you for response. I see this as no contridiction nor exageration I would say clearer understanding of those passages with a lot of supporting scripture. and as for me not being led by the Holy spirit v Apostolic Authority, what is thier explaination of theses couple questions without adding or dancing. again thanks

Thanks again for your responses Perhaps if I keep it simple with just a couple scriptures 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, (Fisherman) and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (hunters) agrees with other races, land of Nod, Cains wife, and more 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. agrees with the Garden of Eden creates the lineage of Jesus,, Bible is tracking of preservation of this seed Why would this not be construed as two different Fleshly creations? The us created man in our image and God created man in his Image. Of Course God created everything But we are talking the Flesh not spirit. perhaps the Us is the angels? I wont speculate. I am aware and have always understood the US in that scripture to be Jesus But that is interpretation and assumption as Jesus in the Flesh, is the son, the living word. To me this would answer much of the first few problems in Genesis, I am fairly read in the scripture, and I have seen more weaving and swerving to simple questions as to where the land of Nod or Cain’s wife came from. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. Gen 4:16-17 (KJV) According to iscripture Cain was the first born along with Abel whom he mudered. But my reading explains Nod, wife, and how this isn't an error to have sin enter into the world. After all, we were all predestined. I guess what I’m saying is unless you read it the way I see this. You would have to add to the scripture to explain Cain’s lineage as a result of departure of the Garden all the way through the Kenites I believe Cain was part of the plan. Not an error by God. This is just one of the things I see in the OP scripture. again thank you for your time. RE: OP "Just because I can find these things and use-supporting scripture does that make it CORRECT?"

Eleanor, thank you for your well thought reply and time consuming response. I really appreciate that. I realize what I wrote may seem a bit confused but I didn’t know what to include or how to properly word for my point of question. I understand what you have explained and that is the common teaching which I am familiar with, however, my point is to ask a question concerning when we see things which may be not be what is typically interpreted or taught, but yet we are convinced what we see is what is actually the meanings/interpretations, how is this resolved? I use this Genesis 6 day creation as an example because I am trying to avoid an argument over more controversial issues where many clearly don’t agree such as Rapture, or OSAS To the bigger point of how we settle to resolve who is correct. You see it your way, I see it mine we both feel strongly in our heart we are correct. Do we teach what we believe, do we teach nothing, do we even bother to correct? I hope you see what I’m getting at? Thank you again

When reading scriptures with understanding, we have the tendency to combine fleshly knowledge with emotion and somewhat eternal thoughts, using imaginary aspects of the fourth dimension or spiritual realm. I write this as an example to use for a purpose of a question. There are many who believe that God created Adam on the sixth day such as I do. But I without scientific evidence to support, I am assuming most think Adam in the Garden was the first Man. Which I say possibly but that’s not the point. And I also say Eve is the Mother of All living which is to me meaning-Living equates with eternal. Thus the common teaching is God created man and women in the Garden and from them all mankind has come. I say kind of but there is more. If you read Genesis in sequence and with an open mind, and understanding you might see that there were many Adams Created on the sixth day and is was not until after the Sabbath God created or appointed a certain Adam to tend to the Garden of Eden . Here are the passages with some of the supporting scripture. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, (Fisherman) and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (hunters) 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:26-28 (KJV) Note the word Replenish 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (Gatherers) 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:29-31 (KJV) So when I see this I realize God Created Man and women, Hunters Fisherman, and Gathers, = Races The "Let Us Create in our image and likeness" tells me we have already been in the spiritual world with God, Replenish the earth tells me that we were already here in the spiritual realm before God destroyed the First earth age, Not The world All of this has multiple supporting scripture, but wait there’s more. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Gen 2:1-2 (KJV) ... 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. (Farmer)Gen 2:4-5 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The garden of Eden, and the river thereof Thus after the Sabbath, day eight or whenever 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:7-9 (KJV) So sometime after the Sabbath God Created or designated a Man to be a Farmer and created the Garden for him to tend? And also fulfilled the cleansing process of the requirement of being born of water to enter heaven eternal spiritual dimension thus good and evil, verses Life eternal when we return to our Spiritual Image after the sorting process. As in the parable of the fig, it takes good and bad to create good fruit. This would answer a few of the obvious questions such as: Who the wife was that Cain took in the land of Nod? How Lucifer who was also a cherub was already the Satan in the Newly Created Garden? Why God who is Perfect would allow sin into this world? all this has supporting Scripture I would be happy to supply it here or in a different topic OP but my point is, Just because I can find these things and use-supporting scripture does that make it CORRECT? I would say that I did not find these things, the Spirit has directed me to see these things. Some supporting scripture 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. Gen 4:16-17 (KJV) Cain being First born where did the land of Nod come from or the wife? 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44 (KJV) Who is the murder in the beginning? Cain 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7 (KJV) The world perished Not Noahs flood where eight souls and two of every kind were saved 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gen 6:3 (KJV) 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Gen 6:13 (KJV) 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Gen 6:19 (KJV) 1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. ……… 10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers. Jer 24:1-10 (KJV) To repeat my question in case you missed it, Just because I can find these things and use-supporting scripture does that make it CORRECT? I would say that I did not find these things; the Holy Spirit has directed me to see these things and through prayer has convicted me to them.

Yes, if not the antichrist at least the spirit of. lol IM sorry, I have wrote about 4 or 5 in depth responses but I realized everything is there I would just be repeating. lol I assume My interpretation of Duet is different then yours if you contend that is about the end times other than the tie in with the parable of the fig tree. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matt 24:1-5 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt 24:1-30 (KJV)

Hey great posting, I just thought I might throw this out for consideration. Suppose Eternal punishment actually is multiple meanings; Either eternal torment or the second/final death. Seems that would explain some conflict in scriptures regarding Satan, fallen angel, false profits, etc……eternal torment V Liars, adulterer’s, fear mongers, unbelievers etc,,,,second/final death 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Matt 25:41-46 (KJV) "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10). 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:1-8 (KJV) Their part of eternal punishment, they are Dead forever. pray for discernment

I think many believe that also. Do you have an opinion where they go?

This is God's gift of wisdom to you Onelight.... Love, Steven Amen. God is giving you an opportunity.

It is amazing to me, how many successful people I meet, that really believe they would want to see a one world Gov rule as well as one common religion. Anti-Christ (other than Christ) fully engrained in leadership positions.

No problem. Matthew 24 is about the Days of Vengeance. If you read Luke 21, it is a parallel passage which mentions things that neither Matthew nor Mark do. I didn't equate Matthew 24 with Revelation 6. Thanks for response so quick. let me post an example or two by comparing Math 24 v Rev 6 Christ foretells the destruction of the temple 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them,[/color] See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matt 24:1-5 (KJV) 1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; (toxon) and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:1-2 (KJV) 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Matt 24:6-7 (KJV) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword Rev 6:3-4 (KJV) 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Matt 24:7 (KJV) 5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. Rev 6:5-6 (KJV) 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Matt 24:7 (KJV) 7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 6:7-8 (KJV) 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together Matt 24:7-28 (KJV) 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 6:9-11 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/color] Matt 24:28-30 (KJV) 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:12-17 (KJV) 21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. Dan 11:21 (KJV)

I hope you don’t mind me slipping in here on at least one point. I have seen it mentioned that Jesus never spoke about the antichrist, but Mathews 24 is all about Rev 6. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Amen Brother