NathanH

I don't think her errors are as massive as one might think. And I think your seeing that, but cannot reconcile it with your own personal beliefs. Jesus indeed saw her heart, not her flesh(although He drew her attention by using things of the flesh). So in this manner He brought out the "heart of the matter", which is the very cornerstone that the rest of the faith should be built on(although it is often times not). He "corrected" her in the one point that is needed for true faith to grow, the rest of her heart needed no 'soil work' done. God set up the lineage of the Jews in order to keep a 'line' from begining to end of who and where the Messiah would come. The rest of the things that are apart of the Jewish faith were simply, and totally, ment to be used to point to the Messiah. Jesus saw her heart, and how it was 'pointed' toward the coming Messiah, and that was all that mattered. Now, the real good question you brought up is how does it shine a light on how we deal with others ourselves.

Well technically... We are 'in' the third day if your looking at things the way you are. Day 1 - 0-1000 a.d. Day 2 - 1001-2000 a.d. Day 3 - 2001-3000 So if your going from the verse, it states 'in' and not 'at the end' of the third day. Just something to think about.

I have viewed revalation a good many ways over the years. But the one thing that always gets me is this statement; The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, And this one; Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. And then tie it into this one; After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Three phrases - must soon take place, are to take place after this, and must take place after this. I believe it is a continual unfolding that started with the writing of the book itself. I believe that since the time of the emergence of the last church we see described things have been unfolding ever since. When did it emerge? Who knows for sure, I have never looked real hard. So as far as where exactly, I think somewhere mid chapter 13. I think the beast who rises from the "earth" has done so and now we will begin to see what takes place from this. My thoughts anyways.

I think it's interesting that Jesus actually gave a parable concerning this, I believe. Luke 12 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

I have read the book. And while the writers pull out a lot of far stretches, they do provide a lot of facts that are simply overlooked now days. I would have to say that I agree with more of it than I do not. The simple fact of it all is that what we view "church" as is certainly not what the church was and still is today. The one thing I find disturbing is that they seem to try to lead people toward a specific line of thinking about how to 'meet' with others. And in doing that all they do is set up another 'form', rather than just leaving it as it is...which is simply nothing but people who have been called out. I am not a big book reader, but this one is worth reading. It does expose a lot of tradition modern churches look at as doctrine.

We come to God through Christ because He calls to us. The "prayer", I believe, is unbiblical and can be deceptive. More often than not it is 'tecited' by those who are scared, not those who are repentive.

I have always wondered myself about this subject. I would not word the title of the thread the way it is, personally, though. It seems to say that there are other "gospels" out there. And I am a stickler for words, and "gospel" means "good news". But personally, I would rather substitute the word 'gospel' for 'books' or 'letters'. Anyways, I have not personally read through all the other books and letters that have come around. So I cannot comment specifically on them. However, what I would like to comment on is that there is a clear and very distinct difference between the "scriptures" and the rest of the Bible. I personally do not hold to the authority of a group of men who decided a specific 'group' of books should be included or not. But, I do find that what is in the "Bible" is enough for me. I have read a few of the other books left out. I personally find the book of Enoch very interesting. But what is in the Bible is plenty enough for me. And what I mean by that is I personally have no desire for any more information. I do find it interesting to read other material though. But, I think the reason why other 'gospels' were not included is the simple fact that they did not "fit". The men in charge of putting together the "Bible" just could not see how the other writings fit in. What I would do, though, if I were to desire to know if the other writings were true or not, is to hold them up to the light of the known Scriptures. And by that I mean what we call the "old" testament. If they are completely contradictory, then I would dismiss them, if not, then take them with a grain of salt.

Lol. I think that there is not much to be said that has not been said already. To continue will be unfair to the topic of the thread. Obviously this has gone past the original intent and into personality conflict. After this post I will not venture into this thread again. But I am completely open to personal conversations. One last thought that sums up the rest of the posts I have made. It revolves around your statement; Sinners have plenty to worry about. In fact, while sinners may portray an outward appearance(physical) of being nonchalant, their soul(spiritual) is anything but at peace. They can, and do, try and remove that 'feeling' - but it never goes away. Sometimes we as believers forget what it felt like to be 'lost'. And there is a good reason why the Bible calls them 'lost'. Eph 2:11-12 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Sinners will continue to indulge regardless of anything else. Lets use the person who does believe in eternal torment for example. Lets say this person is a believer in Christ. Lets say he is a "Christian". Is this person ever going to sin again while alive on this earth? Does his belief in eternal torment for the lost not break him to the point of sickening disgust of what sin does to a person? Sinners have no hope. They have no direction. Belief or disbelief in eternal torment is not the deciding factor for them. Hope, peace, and life will be what changes them. No one here knows what hell is like for an absolute, and no one here knows how one 'exists' there, because no one having gone there ever returns. But what we can do is what Paul did; Act 24:24-25 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you." There is a coming judgment when all will be judged. The righteous will go on to eternal life and the unrighteous to eternal death. Its as simple as that. Persuasion based upon the physical nature of pain and suffering is trying to intertwine the physical and the spiritual. And when we do that we loose perspective of both. Because, as you have stated yourself, they cannot be 'mixed' together, they are different realms.

.Repentance has nothing to do with salvation! Repent of what, being lost, it doesn't work like that. Of sins, Sinners don't repent of sins, Christians do. The depraved person doesn't have the Holy Spirit - he can't truely repent. Through man's pride he trys to make himself part of salvation, the sinner's prayer is all wrong that says, forgive me of my sins. What else is wrong is, Jesus come into my heart. MHO Calling for back-up. Back up has arrived!!!..... lol. Just playing a little. But to be serious, this is a whole different topic. I brought it into discussion to help clarify my beliefs about hell and eternal torment. However, it is a "worthy" topic and is quite interesting to discuss. Maybe you could start another thread. If you do, I would be more than willing to engage in conversation.

I was not going to respond because there really is not anything to respond too. I assume that you are finished with the conversation. But I did want to understand what exactly you meant by this statement. I am not trying to make 'my' point. I was answering a question posed by the OP and while this thread has taken a few turns here and there I have always tried to stay on topic. I thought of something on the way home this evening. What you have stated is that consequences should be known. And I agree. So the difference between us is what the consequences are. My belief is that the consequences are the same for all sinners. Death is the consequence. But what got me to thinking is if you believe there are different 'levels' of consequences for sin? To me it would seem that if its a matter of 'repayment' of the evil done or anything like that then there would have to be a direct reflection of it. So, then the one who only sinned once(very unlikely) would not have to suffer as grave of consequences as the one who sinned all their life and was as evil as the day is long. But I think you would agree that the Bible is clear there is no different 'levels'. The teenager and the 100 year old man will suffer the same fate. I think that maybe we are getting mixed up with the first and second death. I believe that after the first death there is place called 'Hades'. And yes, I do believe there is torment in that place. I believe that is where the soul is placed until the time of the second death, the final destruction of the soul. So maybe that is where we have common ground in our belief, but are unable to put into words. But don't get me wrong, I still do not think that it should be a main issue in presenting the Gospel. And at the same time I would not leave it out completely. However, because we know that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, second death, I will never be able to state that hell is torment for eternity.

I cannot say I "like" discussions of this nature, but deep down I do see a need for them. Its hard though, because many times emotions get involved and then the discussion goes out the window. Semantics do sometimes get in the way sometimes. But lets play with them a little. Belief and repentance are the same thing. Its simply a matter of what a person has believed. lol On one hand you have the person who has believed they are sinful and deserve a life of eternal torment, burning in hell. Ouch! What do they then repent of? Well, following the logical train, they have repented of their sin. However, because their focus was on the past wrong and future punishment they lack the belief that Christ came to save from sins here and now. Then on the other hand you have the person who has believed they are sinful and desire the eternal life God gives. Woohoo! What did they repent of? Themselves...see, to have life eternal one must die to himself here and now. Their focus is past, present, and future. They have the focus of a Savior who saves from sin and with that comes life. Now, does that mean that one 'repentance' cannot follow another 'repentance'? Certainly not. It can, and often times does. It did with me. But, and thats a big but, often times it does not. These are the ones who you see in "church" for a while, then turn around only to see them living the same ole life they lived before. There was repentance, but not the saving kind. The idea of repentance revolves around a 'life' choice. Repentance is not an "event" that takes place, it is a "choice" that takes(ongoing) place. And when someone looks toward the future they miss the here and now. Eternal torment 'grabs' the attention away from the spiritual, and puts it onto the physical. And until someone can understand they are 'dead'(spiritually) in their sins, they can never reach true repentance. They may repent physically, but they are likely not to repent spiritually. Is this all that important? It was important to Jesus. Read John 8. Not once did Jesus speak of eternal torment. However, He did speak to them about life, death, sin, and freedom. Some believe the Gospel to be the good news that we do not have to go to hell. But the truth of the Gospel is that Jesus the Christ paid the price for our sins and we are free in Him. The outcome of this freedom is life for us, but death to those who do not choose Him. Another thought to chew on is this; Why sin? The majority will say because it gives man a choice and therefore he is not a 'robot'. Yes there are different lines of thinking, but thats another topic. But if thats the case, then how much more of a choice would it be for someone to choose to live for Christ over just living for themselves and then going "poof" in the end? Personally, I would say it would be a BIG choice. See, we think that...get that..."we"...think that "we" are doing God a favor and "growing the kingdom" by doing whatever it takes to "win" souls. Jesus had a different method...tell them the truth...tell them the good news...then let them decide. The truth? Hell, eternity, torment, burning, non-existence, etc...whatever, the truth is that life is available to those who choose a Savior who can save them and they choose Him now. Those who just want a 'savior' from hell are not going to find one.

I hope you don't mind, but I get lost in the multiple quote thing. I would like to respond with three parts instead. #1 - The scripture that clearly states it is the same scripture you are stating does not. I cannot convince you, or point anything new out. To destroy something is to destroy something. Something that is dead, is dead. It is the opposite of alive. Lets define the word "exist". If you take a piece of paper and burn it, does it still exist? Existing is to "have real being, whether physical or spiritual"; "to continue to be"; "to have life or the functions of vitality". Death is a cessation of existing. When a person, physical human dies, do they exist here on earth anymore? Their body does for a while, right? Until it goes decomposes and turns back into that which it was to begin with. Death is to not exist. Adam and Eve died the very day they disobeyed. Right? But they were still alive physically, and they still had a soul. So what died? Their spirit. Their spirit ceased to exist. Now I know that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable depending on who your talking to. Each one has a different opinion of each. Please don't get lost in the words, but rather look at the full picture. #2 - I think that you answer your own question and are fighting against your own thoughts. "heat - cold", "up - down", "in - out", "light - dark", "good - bad", and yes "life - death", "existence - non-existence". There is no way around it. It is the truth. The only way it could be possible is if God gave eternal life to those who He was going to punish. But you will never find that, but always find the opposite of that. #3 - The consequence is death. Humans are created to live. That is why we do not think about each breath we take, and we do not think about each heart beat our heart makes. To consider eternal death is quite enough. I will not lie. Eternal torment does sound worse than eternal death. But we are not to try to persuade people based upon earthly physical matters, the feeling of torment. For if that is so, then when persuaded they will only think of that which is physical. They have no desire for a savior from sin, just a savior from the punishment of sin. This is where the professing believers are today. The ones who desired a savior from punishment are quite content in their 'position' of not having to 'suffer' in hell. All the while making excuses after excuses for the sin they live in. Where as the ones who desired a savior from sin, are the ones who walk in the light and live lives pleasing to God. You can call me anything you like. You can say I do whatever you like. But I have not called God a lier, nor have I indicated that He has to 'make something up'. He did give us something to compare eternity with Him against, and that is eternity away from Him. In Him is life. Without Him is death. People can continue to 'turn' people toward God with anything they want. But what it will not do is turn them away from their sin. And until someone turns away from their sin, they CANNOT turn to God. That is repentance at it's simplest definition. Repentance is not a turning away from what you do not want to experience, future tense. Rather, repentance is turning away from something, present tense. And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance.

Thats just it, words are only as meaningful as the one listening gives it. I do not believe what I do because I think God would be "mean" if He tormented a sinner forever. That argument could be made about everything within the Bible. Why sin in the first place? And why hell in the last place? "perpetual directions", precisely. We have no idea of either of them. What we do know is that it is a fixed direction based upon the word "eternal". Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' This text defines the "fixed" nature of it, but at the same time defines the 1st death. And if the 1st death is fixed, then so is the second. Here is another way of looking at things. Why two deaths? Is one not good enough? Is death not...death? The 1st death refers to the death of the physical body. The second death refers to the one of the soul. But you ask, "what about the spirit"? For a sinner, it is already dead. Something cannot die if it is dead already. In the end, who knows exactly what will happen. We can speculate, but will never know. However, I will refuse to try to "convince" someone to believe in Jesus by means of scaring them of burning alive forever. I simply do not see that as being the way Jesus talked with people about their sin. I once heard it put this way. People who are dead in their sins are going through a 'hell' of sorts in the present tense. No, I do not think that its the hell referred to in the Bible, but they are still in misery. They are separated from God. For a creature created by Him, that is very miserable. If those people are not going to be swayed by the preaching of good news about a savior who will save you from the sin your in, present tense, then why would they be concerned about a savior who would save them from their sins for eternity, future tense? However, if then we scare them past the point of seeing the sin their in now, to the eternal sin, then what they do is seek a way out, not the way out. They have not believed because of their sin, but they have believed because of their fear.

There are two things I would like to point out in regards to the above post. #1 - All it takes is a look back to the first book of the Bible to see that the very idea of death, complete death, was used in the original deception of Adam and Eve. Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." God did not lie, period. However... Gen 3:1-4 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. Satan lied, period. So tell me. Did they or did they not die? Let me answer my own question, they did die. But we do not have the complete understanding of the totality of their death. We will never have it because we are not like God...another lie of Satan. Obviously Adam and Eve did not 'disappear' from existence. But they did die. Their spirit died. What God said would happen, happened. Let me pose another question. How can you live in death? How can something exist that is dead? #2 - The reason people turn from their sin is not because of fear, but because of love. When Jesus spoke to sinners it was in a manner of offering them peace from weariness. Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. When Jesus spoke about hell and eternal punishment He was doing so to those who had the notion in their head that they were going to live eternally because of their righteousness. It does not negate the fact that there is a hell, and there is eternal punishment. However, Jesus did not call the masses to Himself through fear, but out of love. People turn from their sin when they realize there is nothing they can do to 'make up for it'. It cannot be fear of death, or punishment, because the man or woman without Christ is already dead. Now, I will agree with you that it does seem counter intuitive with the whole "live like nothing else matters because we will just die, cease to exist" mentality. But ponder on this for a moment; Adam and Eve were alive at one point. They knew exactly what God said to them, but obviously they did not believe it to be true or they just did not care. Who knows for sure. So in all actuality they simply believed what they wanted to believe, without serious regard to what 'could/will' happen. The atheist and every other unbeliever is going to believe what they want regardless. It is not till the Spirit of God comes to a person and convicts them of their sin, and the consequences, that they will believe. And the Spirit of God is not going to lie to that individual. So what we(you and I) believe about hell and the life their-in, really has no forbearance on the situation. Let me clarify that last statement. It is up to us to tell the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is what we will be judged on. I have never stated, and never will, that there is not eternal punishment or that there is not a hell. There is. No doubt in my mind. But what I do state is that there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there. What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist, that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man. Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability. Mankind, no matter who he is, wants to live forever. It has nothing to do with bad things happening to them, but rather the inability to live. The use of eternal "heat and torment" to win someone to belief in Christ is simply not the way He did it nor the way He taught His disciples. If you would not mind, I would like to see some examples of it if you have the time.

Isa 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." This states that they will see the dead "bodies". If you destroy something, it is forever in that state of destruction. Therefore, the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not be quenched is a statement to the eternal nature of the destruction. This passage gives no indication that the man or woman who never is born again will live eternally in hell. You will not find any, any, passages that state a man or woman without Christ will receive the ability to live eternally - no matter the state they are in. Rev 20:10-15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. The first death is that of physical death. The second death is that of the soul. Think of it this way. The first death kills the body, in other words, the body is "destroyed". Right? This even happens to believers. Our bodies are destroyed when we die. They are sinful. And destruction means it is no more. Gone. Obliterated. The second death, second destruction, is only for those who are not in Christ. This is the destruction of the entire 'kit and caboodle'. It only happens to those who's names are not written in the book of...life... Eternal death is just that, eternal...death. It is a state of death that will be forever and ever. Eternal punishment is just that, eternal...punishment. It is a state of being punished(suffering the consequences of their choice) forever and ever. What you have to do is contrast eternal death with eternal life. Then it makes a little more sense because that is exactly what it is.