saved34

Well brother, the only thing I can do is give scripture to back up what I say. I did not say I can have it "both ways", I said the jews not being able to hear our Lord, the select jews of our Lord (his specific chosen Apostles and disciples) who were not only specially given to Jesus by the Father, but were able to hear his words and understand them were direct fulfillment's of bible prophecy. This is not something I simply make up, or pull out of thin air. Those that heard him were to be heralds to bring the Gospel message to the rest of the world, the rest were hardened. Joh 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. Joh 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" Joh 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, Joh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." Notice that it says, the unbelief or hardening of the jews happened for the express purpose to fulfill scripture. Now let's be reasonable, Reformed. This is not me creating something in the text, this is not something I'm just making up, this is pure bible. Our Lord spoke of a later date when those elect jews would then take that message that only they could hear (at that time, for God saved many of those same people who crucified his Son and rejected him before the cross) and those few heralds who could hear from out of the jews would be responsible for getting the message to the "other sheep" which is us non jews. Heb 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. Joh 17:18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. Joh 17:19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. Joh 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; You mean to tell me that there is no connection between this passage in John: Joh 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, Joh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." and this passage in Romans: Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." Rom 11:9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. Rom 11:10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." Reformed, let's be honest, these scriptures lays out in plain english what happened, to whom it happened, and why it happened. I made the connection because there is a connection. I'm not making this up, I'm not isolating a text, or trying to make something strictly jewish. I'm simply showing you by scripture that trying to say God blind everybody for all time is an error. What you read in John is a fulfillment of prophecy. Other examples in scripture of prophecy being fulfilled in the Gospels are: Joh 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. Joh 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" This was specifically fulfilled. Joh 15:24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. Joh 15:25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.' Specifically fulfilled prophecy. Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. Joh 19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." Fulfilled prophecy. You see the point I'm driving home? When scripture clearly and dogmatically says, God himself hardened the Israelite s, which is why they could not hear or see the truth of Messiah at that time, and that it was so that the prophecy of Isaiah could be fulfilled, then it would be an error to try and enforce that teaching for all time, especially when you do not have any direct relation to it in any NT epistle teaching. No they were not. You accused me of taking an isolated text and running with, now I must charge you with the same. Paul's entire argument in Romans 9-11 is not the predestination of men to hell, the argument is, God is having mercy on the gentiles who did not seek after him, and blinding his chosen people who he called from among all the other nations. This people who he commited his Law to, his Covenants of promise, they have known hi9m for 100's of years, and now God in his infinite wisdom, blinds them for the express purpose of bringing in the Gentiles who never sought after him, and who did not have his Light like the Jews did for all of those years. I don't know why you would think, that I think God does not elect personally. I'm a living witness of that. I believe in the eternal election of God, I just reject the Calvinist representation of it. Saying God does not elect corporately is to disagree with scripture itself though. Even in the Old Testament. Deu 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Deu 7:7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, Deu 7:8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. This post is already way longer than I would really like it to be, but I feel the need to respond to a majority of your points. I'll end this post here due to it's length and respond with a part 2 in a few minutes. God bless.

Brother, we both know that professing Christianity is filled with all kind of lunacy in teaching. It should go without saying when a man makes a silly statement like "I elect myself". That should not be lumped upon those of us who disagree with Calvinism as if that's our stance. It would be akin to me saying all Calvinist believe babies go to hell. I would never place that upon all Calvinist. I would argue from a standpoint of truth until that person displayed wild or radical beliefs. I think you completely missed my point on this issue, brother. The scripture you quoted from John 6:37 is distinctly Jewish, in that it is a direct fulfillment of prophecy. It was Prophesied in the old Testament that God would blind Israel(his chosen people) for the express purpose of bringing in the Gentiles (people who did not seek after God.."he will have mercy on whom he will"). We have the scriptures that predicted this, and we have Paul bringing it to full light in Romans chapter 9-11. We have clear scripture the links the statements to fulfilled prophecy, not so with Gentiles in this age of Grace. You do not have an ounce of scripture like these concerning the so called blinding of Gentiles. Rom 11:9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. Rom 11:10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." Joh 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. Joh 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" Joh 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, Joh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." In other words, to try and make these things teachings for all time is akin to trying to repeat Pentecost, or our Lord's Virgin Birth...ie, things that were prophesied and literally fulfilled. Now, all scripture is not too us, but all scripture is for us. I do not have to dismiss vs 40, nor when our Lord talked to Nicodemus about the New Birth. I'm not even dismissing verse 37, I'm showing that it was fulfilled in the Blinding and hardening of Israel, Now show me where scripture says the same about the gentiles today. I'm not confining anything, I'm just showing by scripture, that the Israelites not having ears to hear, nor eyes to see is a direct fulfillment of prophecy. Paul himself said he was among the small remnant of believing Israelites, and that the rest were blinded. No such statement from God like that concerning Gentiles in the world today. Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. In fact, scripture says the exact opposite of this, a man or woman is not blinded by God, but by Satan, the god of this world. A far cry from saying almighty God has blinded them. 2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Contrast that with what he says about Israel: Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY You have not one ounce of scripture that says God blind men's minds to the Gospel, on the contrary we have scripture that says man harden his heart and will not recieve the love of the truth to be saved. Then will God send them a strong delusion because they would not receive the truth 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. This is a decidedly false statement, God did indeed save some of the same people who were hardened and crucified our Lord. We know this from the great sermon delivered by Peter on Pentecost. Again, I say show and prove. Give me direct scripture in the New Testament that says God hardens men today the same way it was prophesied of Israel. Act 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" He does this with all men. Even unsaved. Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. This particular quote is speaking of the Gentiles (corporate) in contrast to the Jews (corporate). That is the theme of Romans 9-11. God has blinded his natural posterity, and brought in Barbarians, and people who never sought after him. "He has mercy on whom he will". I believe this as well. But the beauty of it all is, he offers it to us freely. He does not owe us a thing, but being who he is, he has charged himself with the redemption of poor souls. Bless his name! Not simply for those of us who are saved, but for all mankind. Which is why it will be a shame when many enter hell in spite of God's provision. 1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Reformed, I can't really speak for Onelight, but I do not think that is exactly how that particular branch of belief works. It is not never said God looked into the future to find out anything, God knows all, period. I'm hoping that is thought Onelight is trying to convey. The passage you quoted in John 6:37 is decidedly a jewish passage. Meaning, our Lord had a specific people in mind when he said this. Please consider, this is the Christ before his death, this is the rejected Messiah of the jews speaking here. Scripture says God blinded the Jewish people for the express purpose that they would reject and Crucify Christ, and that the Gentiles can be brought in. Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." In other words, the blinding of Israel was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Scripture calls this a "partial hardening" because their were select Jews chosen of God, to have ears to hear, who would be heralds of this Gospel message to the world. This is not an edict for all time, because our Lord said, Once he is lifted up on the Cross, he will draw ALL MEN to himself. Before the cross, only a small strain of individuals could receive the message our Lord brought, these were select Jews (Apostles, and then a number of disciples) This is not talking about salvation for all time. The Holy Spirit is in the world today convicting it of sin. God is revealing his truth to all men, but many will turn away. This is another completely unfair statement against those who hold differing views from your own. No Christian worth his salt will think that he 'elects himself". There is a beautiful harmony of God's wise selection of us in eternity past, and our own receiving of his Gospel. It is unexplainable, but we as finite creatures still try and fail miserably. God deals with us delicately. His power is beyond our comprehension, so at times he "puts the cookies on the bottom shelf" as the late Dr. Ironside used to say. If you could understand Election and Predestination completely, you would be equal to God in knowledge. You and I are not. Again, making statements like this is akin to us lumping all Calvinist in with Hyper Calvinist. God does not have to search anything, God is God, and it is he who decreed that he loved the world, and it is he who says believe on the Lord and you shall be saved. It is all of God, and from God, and for God's glory. You are defining Foreknowledge by your own denominational viewpoint. Scripture clearly says we are Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God. That is clear scripture. 1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. No brother, the "real rub" is that there are many of us who do not agree with the Calvinist presentation of Election and limited atonement. It is not about fairness or universal opportunity, it is about God being consistent with what he has revealed to us in scripture. Nowhere ever, in the Bible is a man said to be Predetermined to hell. Whatever decisions God makes, we know they are the right decisions, because he is a righteous and just God. He could have easily said, "forget man, I'm gonna destroy them all and start off with something new." He didn't, he has revealed to us that he cares for us, that he desires fellowship with us, he loved us enough to take on our nature and come to this hell hole for the express purpose to redeem us. That is the God that I love, and serve. God is never unfair in any of his decisions, what is unfair, in the minds of many, is the misrepresentation of God by Calvinist in trying to be God, and reason in things that they really cannot comprehend. What you call folks not stomaching God, could be folks not stomaching a doctrine that they consider flawed and in error. I think you have seen that I agree with you on a ton of things, Reformed, but in this I feel you are in great error. That does not mean we are not brothers, because we can both agree on the Lord Jesus Christ being our Life.

Complete free will? I just gave you scripture where God almighty himself gave Cain a choice to do right. In other words, God himself gave Cain the truth, and he willfully rejected it. This was after Adam and Eve's fall. This is not what free will means. You are working from the stand point thatfree will means only serving God. That is a will that is attuned to the Right way, it is the way things should be, but that does not explain the free will that man has in choosing life or death. Throughout the entire Bible we have account after account of man either choosing, or rejecting the light of truth that God gives him. That is true of the flesh, period. Even the flesh of believers. We are not to trust it, we are to mortify the deeds of the body and make it our slave. In the power of the Holy Spirit of course, and due to the fact that our Lord has shattered it's power over us. through death, and resurrection. 1Co 9:27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. The Holy Spirit's work in the world today is to take the Gospel, and make it real to the hearers. It is he who cuts through the darkness over the minds of men, and allows them to make the choice for Christ, or they will reject Christ. Unregenerate man is never left without light from God. There are even false professors who are said to be made partakers of the Holy Spirit(as apposed to partakers of Christ) They have tasted of heavenly things (as apposed to actually eating the flesh and blood of the Son), and they have been enlightened to the truth, yet they are not saved. Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. I only added the last part because I believe you are a Calvinist. I know Calvinist believe God simply passes over some men and leave them to their doom. There is never a time when God leaves himself without a witness to man. Man is never said to be predestined to hell, he willfully rejects revealed truth and then he perishes in spite of God warning him.

Eleanor, the burden of proof is on you to prove this particular thought from scripture. It is precisely because of free will that we are in sin today. Freewill is not defined by one's desire to do what's right. Man being a slave to sin, does not negate free will. God's estimation of man as all being unrighteous outside of the Lord Jesus Christ does not mean men cannot be pious, or do good things. There are ascetic's today who refuse to touch women, or certain meats, there are men today who are harmless, who wouldn't hurt a butterfly. free will has to do with man's ability to choose life, or reject it. We see this model, even in the old testament. Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- God told Cain, "if you bring the right offering, I'll accept it. If you do not, sin lies at the door." Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." This is Cain, who is said to be of the wicked one, and God is giving him a choice.

Yes, it is. The replacement of freewill by free agent is an attempt to remove freewill from scripture. We do find freewill in scripture. The attempt to replace freewill is done because of a misunderstanding of the word. Some believe that we cannot have a freewill since we are influenced by outside influences. Yet, in order to not be influenced, our spirit would have to be the only thing in existence, making this an impossible definition, since we have always had creation. They improperly assign this meaning to freewill and desire to replace it with terms such as free agent. I might add to this is that Scripture says no one can choose based on their fallen state... which I understand that all who hear can only respond by a self centered nature of escape from suffering. However this is in response to God's Word of judgment based on belief of what He Says and that He 'IS' - here I believe the miracle occurs In Christ that God hears through The Son our sinful request by choice In Him for this escape but are regenerated to the selfless nature of New Birth! This is what I think gets the choice-less people started??? Love, Steven I'm not understanding your stance on the issue, E. What is your stance on the topic? You believe Predestination is in connection to unbelievers? God picks some to Glory, and selects others to the Lake of Fire? Are you a Calvinist? lol I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I'm failing to grasp what you are trying to say.

Israel and the Church were predestined/elected to be the people of God. Those who freely receive His grace are added to the group individually. The individual is not arbitrarily decreed to be in the group from eternity past, no choice of their own. Calvinists proof text these corporate verses and try to apply them to individuals (decretal) to support TULIP. The biblical mindset was highly corporate, while modern North Americans are very individualistic. Regarding your statement, "There is no theodicy without free will," are you ever going to address my question: Mankind is morally responsible for the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-21). Where's the free will in that? Not quite, mankind is a recipient of the sin of Adam, but his responsibility is to the Gospel and belief on the Son of God. Adam is the root of humanity, so the only possible outcome for humanity is to be just like it's source. The freewill comes in rejecting or believing the revealed truth of God. Act 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; Act 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Eleanor, I guess I can only speak for myself and from my understanding of freewill. Scripture is abundantly clear that man is a slave to sin, but sin was introduced to mankind through free-or self will. It started with Satan's "I WILL be like the Most High" and then it infected us through our former head, Adam. He fell because he made a clear choice to disobey God's revealed will, thus I guess it would be more biblical to say man is self willed. Not that God cannot override his will at anytime he see's fit, but that God has given man this ability, or parameter to do so. I think that most people say man has free will in the respects that he has a choice in receiving Life (which is only in Jesus) or rejecting life. Man can "harden his own heart to the truth". Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME Scripture speaks of men who will come to the very edge of saving faith, and yet they will turn back. They know that Christ is the only way, but they turn and seek other means of worship or salvation.(exemplified by the some jews turning back to the old ways of Judaism in the face of persecution)The scripture calls this "WILLFUL sin". Not confusing the fact that man's fallen nature is naturally attuned to evil, and alienated from God. The free will comes in once the Holy Spirit opens the understanding of an individual, and he either hardens his heart, or receives the truth. Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The question is not is God sovereign, we all know he is the almighty and can do anything he pleases at anytime, that is not in question. The question is, what is Predestination. It is very clear that nowhere is scripture is predestination ever connected with unbelievers. Predestination is a specific blessing for those of us who believe. God has predetermined certain blessings upon us that will come about. He has clearly revealed this to us in his word, anything else is just a finite creature speculating and trying to be equal in knowledge with God almighty. Scripture is as clear as crystal glass, men will perish not because God predestined them to perish. Scripture says that Christ is not only our propitiation, but he is the propitiation for the whole world: 1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. Christ has reconciled the World unto God, he has now committed to his saints the ministry of reconciliation. The sin that sends a person to hell is not, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, and the like, these sins will be accounted for if the individual never comes to Christ. God is not holding the corrupt tree accountable for not bringing forth good fruit, it can only produce wickedness apart from God. He is holding mankind responsible for belief on His beloved Son. Unbelief is the sin that damns the individual to hell. 2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; A man will go to hell inspite of God. There has never been a time where God has not given man some kind of light, some kind of warning. He has never just passed over a man and left him to his own doom. He warns, then he executes judgement. Scripture even speaks of false prophets who are doomed to the Lake of fire, it says the Blood of Christ even purchased them, but they denied it. 2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. It is difficult to deal with this subject without it crossing into a Calvinism debate.

Butero, I don't think you can separate the office of a Bishop or Elder from the work of a pastor. Pastorship is more so a work than an office. The chief Apostle Peter considered himself an Elder who had the responsibilities of pastoral care for God's flock, and he admonished all the Elders to pastor the flock. 1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; Women are truly blessed with the gift of teaching just like men, but in the overseeing of the flock, God has called men to do this work. In the congregation women are to be submissive to the men in leadership, outside of the congregation, they have the entire field of the world to minister and preach to. I know we use the word Pastor today as if it is the main office of the Church, but scripture uses the word Bishop, Elder, or overseer, with overseer, teaching and pastoral care being the work, while Bishop or Elder being the office. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of adding the woman to the qualifications of being a leader in the Church, instead, he chose to give guidelines that instructs them to be in quiet submissiveness in the Church. The scripture does speak of women deacons though, and lists the qualifications that she must meet. There is no question that today's Pastors will do the office of a Bishop, which is why women can't meet the qualifications for that office. At the same time, I am not sure that the Pastor should have the same job description a Bishop has? Having looked at the passage you just presented, it appears that the Elder is more likely to be the Pastor, as opposed to the Bishop? 1 Peter 5:1-4 1 THE elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind. 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. From my limited studies in the Greek, it seems that Bishops,Elders, or overseers are exchangeable.(Not saying they are the same greek words, but the title seems to reflect the work done) In other words, there are no offices that are higher than an Elder or Bishop. If a man is leading a congregation he is an Overseer/ Bishop. I could be wrong and would seriously like to be corrected if that is the case. This is very important to be sure on. LOl sorry for using the ISV. I just wanted to show that the titles are used interchangeable, with the office of Pastor being one of tradition, more so than out of scripture. 1Ti 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. - NASB 1Ti 3:1 This is a trustworthy saying: The one who would an elder be, a noble task desires he. - ISV 1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. - KJV

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement. Acts 4:27-30 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple. Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge? Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple. The operative phrase is in blue above. determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen. And to what God determines there is no altering. I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error. When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly? To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise? If you believe otherwise, how do you believe? Do you think we have adequately dealt with "determined before to be done?" If it does not mean what I state, then what does it mean? Eleanor, that particular verse you presented does not promote your belief in God choosing some, and neglecting others. (I'm assuming you are Calvinist, correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs) That verse specifically is talking about the Godhead (Trinity) determining before hand the sufferings of Christ through death, at the hands of Jew and gentile, and his glorious resurrection. God predetermined this before the foundation of the world. 1Pe 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you Eph 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, As far as your question of "what did I mean by corporate?" I simply meant the Body of Christ as a whole. We are determined to be presented Holy and without Blame before him in love. Christ himself is washing us and making us clean by his word. This is the guaranteed or predetermined outcome of the entire Church (all who believe on the Lord no matter the location). Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, Eph 5:27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords. 2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction. The great theme of Romans chapters 9-11 is not Predestination of people to hell, rather it is the blinding of Israel for the express purpose of God bringing in the Gentiles. The the chapters go on to illustrate that God will yet re-establish his chosen people Israel once again. Chapter 9 opens with: Rom 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, Then chapter 11 ends with: Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. Romans chapter 9 has been abused beyond belief. If taken in context, and in whole, it is very clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with the predetermining of a man or woman to hell. In fact, these chapters teach the exact opposite in that the door of salvation is wide open to the Gentiles (and a remnant of believing jews) today. God will yet return and restore the "fallen hut of David". Bless the Lord Jesus Christ, and God bless Israel.

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study: Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords. 2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Butero, I don't think you can separate the office of a Bishop or Elder from the work of a pastor. Pastorship is more so a work than an office. The chief Apostle Peter considered himself an Elder who had the responsibilities of pastoral care for God's flock, and he admonished all the Elders to pastor the flock. 1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; Women are truly blessed with the gift of teaching just like men, but in the overseeing of the flock, God has called men to do this work. In the congregation women are to be submissive to the men in leadership, outside of the congregation, they have the entire field of the world to minister and preach to. I know we use the word Pastor today as if it is the main office of the Church, but scripture uses the word Bishop, Elder, or overseer, with overseer, teaching and pastoral care being the work, while Bishop or Elder being the office. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of adding the woman to the qualifications of being a leader in the Church, instead, he chose to give guidelines that instructs them to be in quiet submissiveness in the Church. The scripture does speak of women deacons though, and lists the qualifications that she must meet.

We Christians have the capability of sinning just like any other human being, but I think calling a believer an "evil doer" would be a bit extreme. Evil doer denotes to me, one who habitually commits acts of evil, one who schemes evil plans. We are Saints of God, Kings and Priests to our God through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Though sometimes our walk may not reflect that, it is a fact nonetheless. " 1Jn 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 1Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. "

I can't side with either. Anything ending in "ism" usually has a slight leaning towards one way of belief in spite of scriptural evidence to the contrary. Calvinism and Arminiusism are both right in many respects. I do recognize the sovereignty of God in respects that he did choose us (who believe) before the foundation of the world, I think that is without question, but I do not agree with the thought that he did it to the exclusion of the rest of mankind. God is almighty, and operates so far above what we are able to comprehend, he is not limited in time like we are, he does not wait till tomorrow to do anything. He has prepared for us, his people, well before we made that desperate cry for help to him. The other masses of mankind that will never come to him is still without excuse, because scripture is clear that our Lord has reconciled the world unto God. Only those who receive this gift will benefit from it. Those who do not believe the record that God gave of his Son has made him a liar. They will stand guilty before God almighty, not because God predestined them so, (because Predestination is only ever mentioned in connection with the blessings toward those of us who do believe), but because they would not believe. "Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

Being able to glory in my God while suffering (and I do mean suffering) through severe psoriasis is not only a test of faith ,but I also feel it is an expression of my faith. P can be a very debilitating disease (mentally). Thank God I have hope in the Lord Jesus Christ who will one day fashion this vile, embarrassing , diseased body into a glorious body just like his own. .

This will be the disastrous truth for so many who are caught up in cults claiming to believe in Jesus, but not according to knowledge. This will never be the fate of one who falls on the mercy of Christ. No Christian worth his salt would come before the very Righteousness of God and put forth pitiful works as a reason for acceptance. It kind of bugs me to hear a pastor or teacher lead someone to pray certain words exactly as they tell them in order to be saved. As if it is a formula. Just as the OP said, the simple prayer that the publican lifted was sufficient for our Lord to say that he went to his home Justified. The words are great, but it is the heart that is the main thing. A heart that recognizes it's complete and utter ruin in the Light of God's estimate of him or her. Coming to recognize just how sinful and lost you are. Once the Holy Spirit opens our hearts and minds to the Gospel message, the only thing we can do is accept God's gift of his Son. Be merciful to me the sinner is all a person need say as long as he believes in his heart that God has made the great sin offering of the Lord Jesus Christ for him or her. "Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

Amen! My thoughts exactly. The Holy Spirit within this person would definitely nudge his or her heart towards the error of trying to mix buddhism with the Christian faith (if he or she is really saved). "1Jn 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. "