firestormx

And, thank you, Firestormx, for the question. Ignore everything that we’ve discussed so far (especailly the rabid ranting of shiloh357). Here’s the gist of what I’ve been saying and what I believe in a picture of the hierarchy: God (the Father), who is Spirit, who is Holy, and therefore is "the Holy Spirit,” eternal and infinite in all positive respects | Yeshua`, the Messiah of God and His King-Apparent, once the Word, now the Son of God, eternal but not quite infinite in all respects by virtue of His body | | (HUGE GAP HERE!!!) | Messengers (the supernatural messengers of God, also transliterated from the Greek as “angels”) | Human leaders and governments | Commoners (other men with little or no authority over other men) ==== Yesha`yahu 9:6 is the following transliterated from the Hebrew: 5(6) kiy yeled yulad laanuw been nitan laanuw vat-hiy hamisraah `al shikmow vayiqraa’ shmow pele’ yow`eets eel gibowr aViy `ad sar shaalowm: JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (without capital letters since there is no such thing in Hebrew) 5(6) kiy = 5(6) for yeled = a-male-child yulad = is-born laanuw = to-us been = a-son nitan = is-given laanuw = to-us vat-hiy = and-shall-be hamisraah = the-control/government/empire `al = upon shikmow = his-shoulders vayiqraa’ = and-shall-be-called shmow = his-name pele’ = a-wonder/miracle yow`eets = counselor/to-devise/deliberate/resolve eel = God gibowr = mighty/strong/powerful aViy = my-father `ad = vanishing-point/eternal sar = a-prince/winner shaalowm: = peace: Taking it with a grain of salt because it is, after all, a Jewish publication and is therefore an anti-Yeshua` document, the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH words it like this: “The mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler,” and points to 25:1 as proof to the interpretation of the “is planning” part. Jewish eschatology DOES acknowledge the coming Messiah of God; they just won’t recognize Yeshua` being that Messiah. However, they DO know the correct Hebrew grammar behind the phrase. Also, any time that two (or more) nouns are placed back to back in Hebrew, they are in the construct state and the word “of” can be inserted between them when translated into English. For instance, “sar shalom,” is translated as “prince of peace,” showing either ownership or relationship. I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." Remember: ALL Hebrew names mean something. Sometimes, the names and their translations are short and sweet, like “Sarah,” being the feminine form of “Sar,” means “Princess” (or a female “Winner”). Sometimes, the names are whole phrases: Iy-kaaVowd (Ichabod) = “(there is) no glory,” when the “glory” - the Ark of the Covenant - was taken by the P’lishtiym (the Philistines). Sometimes, the name, like Maheer-Shaalaal-Chaash-Baz, can be quite lengthy. The name means “hurrying to the booty, eagerly hurrying to the plunder.” This is ONE such name consisting of six parts, not multiple names. ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme . I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse. To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this. God bless you Firestormx Joseph

Retrobyter , Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you Firestormx

One thing you forgot to mention about pre-wrath that every other end time belief leaves out is that in Joel 2:31 it states a event that will occur before the day of the Lord or God's wrath. Those of us who believe in pre-wrath believe this is the 6th seal. It's the 6th seal or 4th trumpet. No other end time belief even addresses this verse that clearly states an event will happen before for the Day of the Lord/ God's wrath begins.

Thank you for the simple and direct answer above. It's not that I am doubting my relationship with Jesus, just have been concerned about how to know if it's real or not, how to know if I have deceived myself and have been having itching ears. Of all the lies we tell, the lies we tell ourselves are some of the most dangerous. I almost cried tears of joy reading your post. Thank you

Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. At the last day when we stand in front of God in judgement, there will be people according to the verses above who will be convinced they got it right. They will be convinced they are going to be with the Lord forever, that they are saved and sadly they will be wrong. I find myself keeping going back to the part of Jesus answer that says " I never knew you " . It gets me wondering , what makes the relationship real? When does he know you and when does he not? How can these people not realize they got it wrong? It seem like this is saying that Jesus wants a relationship with us, but what kind of relationship does he want? How do we know we won't be one of the people in the above verses? How do we know our relationship with Jesus is real and not just in our heads? Firestormx Joseph

I was curious if anyone had seen the story and what everyone thought about it. I will post a link to an article about it below. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/17/john-oliver-exposes-shady-televangelists-fleecing-americans-for-millions.html

That's comparing apples and oranges. We are around sinners daily and constantly. But we do not participate in their activities or encourage them in their sins. That's how simple it is. As to the water being turned into "wine" (a) Christ condemns drunkenness, so there must be another explanation and (b) Bible wines have a wide variety of meanings, from pure grape juice to strong alcoholic drinks. Ok, fair enough. But what is actually in the bible is Man is not lay ( have sex ) with another man like he would a woman, and likewise for the women. So, since baking a cake is NOT having homosexual sex, where is the line. When does it become Partaking of homosexual sex by being around them? What activities should be forbidden to partake in ( let's say at a family reunion ) because it condones homosexuality? From strictly a BIBLICAL stand point where is the line? Making a cake indicates that you are helping them celebrate a sin. Some people dont have a problem with it. Some do. I have a problem with helping someone celebrate a sin that has been pushed on society. I understand what you are saying. But I if you have a business that makes bakery goods then I don't think your celebrating the sin, just running your business. Paul in the bible was a tent maker if I remember correctly ( I could very easily be wrong on that ) . Thinking about this subject makes me wonder if paul would have made a tent for a homosexual? Thanks for the post.

Let's get down to cases. You own a bakery and a homosexual couple walks in, identifies themselves, claims that they are getting married, and want you to bake the wedding cake. All you have to do is say that you are a Christian and that you will not take their order because it violates your religious beliefs. Why? Because in God's eyes and in Christ's eyes, homosexuality is a sin (and even under the law not too long ago, it was a crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States), therefore that would be partaking of their sins. So they say, Where does it say that this is a sin? So you show them the Scriptures and stand firm. Perhaps the Holy Spirit convicts them, and they repent, and are converted because you stood firm. Note what James has to say (James 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. I get what your saying but they are not asking me to have homosexual sex, just bake a cake? How is baking a cake partaking of homosexual sex? I just don't get it.

I thank you for taking the time to clarify you point of view. One more question if you don't mind. Do you believe it is a sin for a christian to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage ? From your POV does baking a wedding cake enable homosexual sex? If baking the cake is not participating in the sin of homosexuality then why is it wrong to bake the cake?

Marriage is God's domain. He created marriage. Gay who wed do not have a marriage because God and God alone defines what marriage is. Gay "marriage" is a perversion of God's prescription for marriage and human sexuality and he calls it an abomination. That would include anything in the peripheral that goes with it, such as wedding cakes, photography, and providing any other goods an services to facilitate that kind of event. We as believers cannot, biblically, lend our resources/services to facilitate and enable what God has stated clearly that he hates. This has nothing in common with Jesus being willing to seen with sinners. Jesus didn't avoid sinners, but Jesus didn't participate in, or enable their sinful habits or lifestyle. Jesus was called a glutton and drunk by his enemies, those who were lying to discredit him all of the time. You can't go by their words. Jesus was neither a glutton nor a drunk. It was just a slander that was issued against Jesus when they couldn't find a legitimate reason to hate him. What about Jesus making the wine at the wedding, wasn't that enabling the people at the wedding to get drunk? It's important to understand that wine in those days was not near as strong as what we produce to day. They relied on only natural fermentation which has a much, much lower alcohol content than our modern processes. So it is not the case that Jesus was enabling anyone to get drunk, any more than multiplying the bread and fish was enabling people to over eat. The alcoholic content of drinks in Bible times and what they considered "strong drink" would be like drinking water when compared to the proof levels of modern alcoholic beverages of today. Ok, fair enough, I understand your point. The bread and fish reference was a good one. Makes think about motive and where the heart is will make a big difference in how you view things. I guess my problem is I don't see how baking a cake is partaking of homosexual sex. To be honest, I guess it is a little bit of the hypocrisy of this that is bothering me as well. Why don't we get this hot and bothered over adultery or any other sin that is so rampant in the USA these days. Anyways, thanks for the input.

That's comparing apples and oranges. We are around sinners daily and constantly. But we do not participate in their activities or encourage them in their sins. That's how simple it is. As to the water being turned into "wine" (a) Christ condemns drunkenness, so there must be another explanation and (b) Bible wines have a wide variety of meanings, from pure grape juice to strong alcoholic drinks. Ok, fair enough. But what is actually in the bible is Man is not lay ( have sex ) with another man like he would a woman, and likewise for the women. So, since baking a cake is NOT having homosexual sex, where is the line. When does it become Partaking of homosexual sex by being around them? What activities should be forbidden to partake in ( let's say at a family reunion ) because it condones homosexuality? From strictly a BIBLICAL stand point where is the line?

You make good points, I had not thought of it that way before.

Matthew 11:19 is one place Jesus says he is called a drunkard . Look from a legal stand point only I am of the position that all private business owners should have the right to refuse service for any reason. I'm just trying to understand the difference between partaking in the sin and being around the sinner. Nobody is asking them to have homosexual sex just bake a cake? Just trying to understand the difference, trying to understand where the line is.

1. First of all it is NOT a "gay" wedding but a wretched wedding. Paul says that the things which are done are not even to be mentioned because they are so filthy. 2. Homosexual unions are condemned and judged in Scripture, not celebrated with cakes. Lot's wife was judged for even looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah. Think about that. 3. God hates the sin and loves the sinner. Therefore the only message to give to homosexuals (as to all sinners) is repent and be converted. 4. Therefore baking a cake for a homosexual "wedding" (a perversion of the word) is giving approval to that which is condemned by God. A homosexual wedding is actually a Satanic attack against lawful marriage and lawful unions. Would you bake a cake then for someone marrying there mistress. Would you be just as outraged? My motive for this is simple. I am trying to understand the difference between Partaking in the sin and being around sinners.

Marriage is God's domain. He created marriage. Gay who wed do not have a marriage because God and God alone defines what marriage is. Gay "marriage" is a perversion of God's prescription for marriage and human sexuality and he calls it an abomination. That would include anything in the peripheral that goes with it, such as wedding cakes, photography, and providing any other goods an services to facilitate that kind of event. We as believers cannot, biblically, lend our resources/services to facilitate and enable what God has stated clearly that he hates. This has nothing in common with Jesus being willing to seen with sinners. Jesus didn't avoid sinners, but Jesus didn't participate in, or enable their sinful habits or lifestyle. Jesus was called a glutton and drunk by his enemies, those who were lying to discredit him all of the time. You can't go by their words. Jesus was neither a glutton nor a drunk. It was just a slander that was issued against Jesus when they couldn't find a legitimate reason to hate him. What about Jesus making the wine at the wedding, wasn't that enabling the people at the wedding to get drunk?

The bible says we as Christians are not to partake in the sins of another. Homosexuality is a sin. So why is baking a cake for them sin or against Christian beliefs? What I am having trouble with is this. Jesus was called a drunk and a glutton and a friend of sinners because that's who he was around most of the time. One of his first miracles in the book of John is turning water in to wine at a wedding after everyone had gotten drunk. If Jesus can create wine and be at a wedding where people are going to drink the wine he just made ( after they have already been drinking a good while ) to get drunk. If Jesus can be around " sinners " all the time to the point that people call Jesus a drunk and a glutton , Then why is it wrong to bake a cake for a gay wedding? Firestormx

Scripture speaks of three distinct groups -- The Jews, the Gentiles (also called "the Nations), and the Church of God. So the point of judging the nations (the Gentiles) is to separate believing Gentiles (sheep) from the unbelieving (goats). We should also understand that these prophecies are broad brush-strokes, and the finer points have not been revealed. So there is no need to get too involved with the details. Thanks for the clarification but it still makes no sense. The believing gentiles are gathered with the elect by the angels by my understanding. As for the church , we have already been raptured. I thank you for the clarification of your position, it just doesn't add up to me.

Thank you for the encouragement, may God bless you

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I guess I just don't understand the position of both verses being about the 2nd coming. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate? Nobody else will live again until Rev. 20. Jesus sits down on his throne, the nations gather before him so he can separate sheep from goats. Who are the Sheep? We are always with the Lord since the rapture. The Jews and the tribulation saints were gathered by the angels in Matt. 24:30-31. So who is left to separate? It just makes no sense to me. The only thing that makes sense to me is this. After the AoD the 6th seal and/or 4th trumpet event takes place sometime at the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years, after the 6th seal event as spoken of in Matt. 24 we come to verses 30-31 which is the rapture. Then the parables Jesus tells next makes a lot more sense as well. For, Matthew 24-25 is the end times from the churches point of view. Then when we come to Matt. 25:31-32, we have the 2nd coming where Jesus is separating the Jews and the people who believed there report and come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation from everyone else and setting up his Kingdom on earth. I just don't understand how both can be talking about the 2nd coming. Everyone has been separated already by the rapture and Jesus gathering everyone to himself. I just don't understand, but I thank everyone for sharing there point of view.

Why do you say he is talking about his 2nd coming and not the rapture? Do you believe they are one and the same event?

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view. Matthew 24: 30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 25 : 31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail. 1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice? 2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him? 3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King? 4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times? 5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus? 6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture? 7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all Firestormx

You very sensitive, how is testing your doctrine not for profit? Is your doctrine above reproach? I did say to you, that you have my full attention and we will get to Joel, why do you feel the need to rush through things? Is not spending time in God’s word profitable? You seem to overlook the fact that primary and secondary agency both belong to God's wrath. Would anyone deny that the Northern Kingdom had been judged by God because Assyria conquered her? Did the Southern Kingdom escape the wrath of God for her sin because the instrument of judgment was Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon? Then why should anyone think that because the early seals and trumpets relate to famine and war as well as natural phenomena that they cannot and are not expressions of the wrath of God? Which you have failed to address. For you to openly deny the basic truth to say that a judgment which reduces the world’s population by a fourth has nothing to do with the wrath of God is well simply incredulous. This truly begs the question; if the first 3½ years are the beginning birth pangs and if the period prior to the Day of the Lord is the time of hard labor (the Great Tribulation), then what kind of pains are there during the day of the Lord? Lets use an analogy : A woman has just gone through labor and just given birth, this woman now relieved, a prewrath doctor would tell this woman: “Oh don’t worry your worse time is till to come” I’m glad you said this because this is where you completely contradict your doctrine, or rather your doctrine is in a state of confusion I also want to post what you said to InSeasonOut Basically what your saying is the 5th seal is the cause of the killings of the Saints, If the 5th seal wasn’t opened then by logic the saints would be alive, the 5th seal opened saints killed, 5th seal not opened saints not killed, yet in your confusion your advocating that the instigate of the opening of the 5th seal is the cause of the martyrdom. Yet its Jesus who is opening the 5th seal, 5th seal opens then saints die, 5th seal closed saints don’t die. This is the realm of your confusion. Lets please refer to Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. Now can you please, In fact I challenge anyone to please show me that the opening of the 5th seal was the cause of the saints being killed? Does John witness the killings of these saints as soon as the 5th seal is open? Are they being decapitated in front of him? Are they being shot infront of him? Are they busy having their throats slit in front of him? Where in Rev 6:9 do we read the saints are in their physical bodies being executed? John clearly seas saints who WERE slain, John did not witness their killings, therefore the saints killings happened prior to the 5th seal, the 5th seal is not the cause of the saints killings, were in the text does it indicate that the 5th seal is the cause of the saints killings? If you keep persisting the 5th seal is the cause of the saints being killed, Its Jesus who opens the 5th seal not satan not any man but Jesus, how does that fit into your we are not subject to Gods wrath? Firestormx it is clear you lack knowledge of any rendering or understanding of verse 6:9 or actually even bothered to red Rev 6:9 Joel 2:30 -31 Firstly within the prophecy of Joel, not all cosmic-sign passages refer to events that must precede the coming wrath of God in the day of the LORD. Nevertheless you have already shown such a conglomerate package of utter confusion, talk about square pegs in round holes. Firstly it would help to read from the beginning of Joel 2:1 to set the context of what exactly is going on. In Joel 2:1–11, the prophet describes the attack on Jerusalem by the King of the North. In verse 20, Joel points out the king's defeat. This description parallels Daniel 11:36-45, our midpoint. Now watch this in Joel 2:10 - 11, the prophet describes the period as the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD. Joel 2:12–27 discusses the establishment of the millennium (see especially verses 24–27). In verses 28–32, the prophet returns to his discussion of the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD, but does so in reverse order. In verses 28 and 29, he describes events that will occur "afterward," in other words, after the second half of the seventieth week but just before the millennium. In verses 30,32, he describes events that will occur just "before" the second half of the week. The word before can refer to an event which is first in a series. To give you a better analogy: Lets say I was holding an hour long lecture, before the lecture starts I say class lets pray. The opening prayer precedes all of the events of the class hour but is still a part of that hour. I Wasn't going to post, and after this I won't. But after feeling attacked and purposefully misrepresented by this post i felt the need to respond. First and for most I never said my doctrine was above reproach, I find your leaps to this kind of thinking ( you must think your above reproach ) It's Passive aggressive manipulative and unchristian. I never one time said my doctrine was above reproach, never suggested it. I meant what I said. Your mind is not being changed, my mind is not being changed, what is the point in continuing. I don't see it. If you can't accept that then fine but don't attack my character simply because you don't agree with my understanding of prophecy. 2nd, You are completely off base and clearly have never studied The Day of the Lord and God's wrath. I completely disagree with your understanding of Joel 2 30-31. 3rd, In regards to the 5th seal, God's saints have always been persecuted and always will until Jesus returns. That is irrelevant to the 5th seal, if you study Daniel , the gospels and revelation then you see a single event of mass killing of God's saints that in every book of prophecy always happens around the AoD. This event of mass killing is what I believe is the 5th seal. It is what is meant by, wait until your fellow brethren join you ( not an exact quote of revelation ) . Not that some christians won't continue to be killed , but this one mass event will begin and end. You keep saying since Jesus opens the seal then it has to be his wrath, well then you believe it was God's wrath poured out onto Job then don't you? God did the things to Job, it was God's wrath poured out onto Job correct? Because it's no different. See, the breaking of the seals is not the wrath, it is what is on the scroll sealed by seven seals that is God's wrath unleashed . Breaking the seals is just the preparation and the last of what is necessary to get to what is on the scroll which is God's wrath. It's not the 7 seals that are important, but the scroll and what it contains. You can't get at what the scroll contains ( God's wrath ) until all 7 seals are broken and you can completely open the scroll . Now I'm done, Next time I will not respond despite the passive aggressive manipulation , " You think your above reproach " . Firestormx

Well, in regards to the 5th seal it is really simple. I'm right. I just refuse to go into why I'm right since you refuse to acknowledge a simple truth such as the verse in Joel. If you refuse to even acknowledge that it is referring to God's wrath then there is nothing left to discuss. By the bible saying this point ( the 6th seal ) is before God's wrath, then by default everything that precedes it is before God's wrath. If you refuse to even acknowledge that simple truth, then why bother going into something more complicated like the details of the seals? I just don't see the point. See the Great and terrible day of the Lord always refers to God's wrath. Now it has been used in the OT many times in regards to God's wrath and/or judgement being poured out at different times. So the context of the chapter must be looked at as well. It is clear from the passages in Joel 2 that the context is the Last days. So verses 30-31 are talking about the last days pouring out of God's wrath and that it will not even begin until after the event/sign given in the verses 30-31 of Joel 2 happens. How ironic that after an almost word for word event in Matt. 24 as we have in Joel 2 30-31, we have Jesus returning to gathering his elect from the 4 corners of the earth. How ironic that after the 6th seal in revelation, another event remarkably similar to the Joel event, we suddenly see a number standing in heaven that no man can number. See, you can say anything you want about what happens before the 6th seal and how terrible it is. The bottom line is the bible declares this event is before God's wrath and there is nothing you say to change what the bible has stated so clearly. Since it seems we are at an impasse, I'm done with this conversation. I don't see any point in continuing this conversation about this, it profits nothing. But before I go, in regards to the 5th seal, let me say this. See, Jesus gives an outline in Matt. 24, that lines up with revelation and Daniel about the end times. If you would study Daniel 11 starting with verse 29 through the end of the chapter ( for this is what Jesus is referencing in Matt 24 about the AoD ) compare that to the gospels such as Matt. 24, and compare that to revelation you will see it for yourself ( hopefully even if you don't agree ) why I say the 5th seal is about the killing of the saints. Now good day to you and may God bless you.

Thanks You should notice that when the fifth seal is open John didn't see the believers being slain. What did he see? John saw the disembodied souls of saints who were slain BEFORE the 5th seal is open. Hence the verb form "were slain". That means the slaying of these saints had already been completed before John saw them. Your mistake is to instigate the opening of the 5th seal the cause of the martyrdom....that is incorrect...Infact satan will be waging war on God's people as soon as he pops onto the scene which is way before the opening of the 5th seal. Did you even read my post above that you quoted? Your response is Absolutely irrelevant to the verse in Joel 2 30-31 which states an event that must happen before the wrath starts. That event doesn't happen until at least the 6th seal. So, Nice try but no luck. P.S. I'm right on the 5th seal as well when all scripture is taken into account but I'm not going to go into that now because it's irrelevant to the the point. So a mistake you made is now irrelevant? You have mistakenly assumed the 5th seal is the cause of the martyrdom and this is now irrelevant? So why are you harping on about the 5th seal then? We will get to Joel in a bit, but first you need to explain to me; how is it that the seals 1 - 4 is not God's wrath considering that these are all ills that befall on man: famine, wars, false religions, death...they all being released from heaven....now why would God do that if he wasn't angry? The verse in Joel 2 30-31 says an event must take place before the great and terrible day of the lord begins. The great and terrible day of the Lord is God's wrath. The event in Joel 2 30-31 is either the 6th seal or the 4th trumpet. Even it if it's the 6th seal then seal's 1-5 can not be God's wrath if God's wrath it doesn't start until the event in Joel 2 30-31 which is the 6th seal. How can seals 1-5 be God's wrath when Joel 2 30-31 says God's wrath or the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the 6th seal? P.S. I'm right about the 5th seal

Thanks You should notice that when the fifth seal is open John didn't see the believers being slain. What did he see? John saw the disembodied souls of saints who were slain BEFORE the 5th seal is open. Hence the verb form "were slain". That means the slaying of these saints had already been completed before John saw them. Your mistake is to instigate the opening of the 5th seal the cause of the martyrdom....that is incorrect...Infact satan will be waging war on God's people as soon as he pops onto the scene which is way before the opening of the 5th seal. Did you even read my post above that you quoted? Your response is Absolutely irrelevant to the verse in Joel 2 30-31 which states an event that must happen before the wrath starts. That event doesn't happen until at least the 6th seal. So, Nice try but no luck. P.S. I'm right on the 5th seal as well when all scripture is taken into account but I'm not going to go into that now because it's irrelevant to the the point.