Little One

No, I'm stating it's a historically established fact. I believe that the abomination of bloodguilt is what caused the Lord to send the Roman Army to desolate Jerusalem, destroy the temple and put an end to the old covenant worship system of types and shadows. Remember, I believe in a historical timeline of events, I'm not a total futurist. Yet those who prefer religion and tangible people ruling over them rather than an "as-one" relationship with one Lord: Jesus Christ, have created the same "abomination that causes desolation" because they've held their church's "founders" and doctrines of men in higher esteem than they do Christ's teachings and example. Otherwise there would be but one Church whose "head" is Christ alone. Just as the leaders of Judaism set themselves up in Moses' seat (Matthew 23), the pope has set himself up on earth in Christ's seat and declared his word supercedes Christ's and therefore God's. A definite showdown and great humbling is coming for those who have puffed themselves up with the same yeast of self-importance as the Pharisees did. In that day Jesus alone will be exalted in the Earth. Then the pope and all who have exalted themselves over others -- especially in Christ's name -- will be humbled and Christ's true Church of the collective of believers will be revealed. I can't wait!

---------------------------------- It all goes back to the man's attitude in the Garden, when he blamed "the woman you (God) gave me." Genesis 3 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. ... So, God put man in charge and made everything Adam's responsibility. Hence the saying, "It's a man's world." But we must also remember that the stone the builder of the world rejects, which in Adam's case was both God and the woman God gave him, becomes the cornerstone in the world to come from the ashes of this man's world.

Like Israel in the days of Elijah, America's troubles stem from uncertainty, from wavering between two opinions concerning "who" is God: God OR mammon? Mammon is anyone or anything else except God that one accredits with being the provider and sustainer of all life and provisions. Where there is wavering between two (or more) opinions, there is no (zero) certainty, and God displays His uncontestable power for those who are certain that God alone is God and are undivided or uncertain about the matter -- as Elijah was, who saw with certainty, the true cause of all Israel's "trouble": 1 Kings 18 16 ... Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?” 18 “I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.” 20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing. This is certainly why Jesus said, in Luke 16: 13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” 14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Unfortunately, those of us who've been born into, indoctrinated by and thoroughly socialized in The American Way (or any other so-called "way") have been led astray from The Creator's One Way -- which is by faith in Him and the One He sent to reveal Himself to us -- alone. We've learned to exalt ourselves and our self-acquired knowledge and ingenuity as the reasons for our own and this nation's prosperity. We, as a nation, have proudly proclaimed and boasted ourselves to be the greatest, best, and most powerful nation on Earth -- all due to our own hard work and ingenuity. Yet we have been and still are blind to our own duplicity concerning which one of these two we will attribute our prosperity to and therefore love, serve and worship, and which we will hate and therefore want as little to do with as possible. Any part of us who finds the words of God on such matters offensive is the enemy of God, which dwells secretly and quite safely within the psyche of each and every one of us -- that is until he is confronted head-on on this matter and he rises up in defense of himself and his use of and reliance upon money that he himself worked hard to earn -- rather than God -- as the provider of the very breath he breathes, not to mention all he needs, has and desires. Unfortunately, most people confuse this "liar" with themselves and remain blind to his influence within them, thereby increasing it. But as a tree is recognized by its fruit, so the deceiver within and among us is recognizable by the vehemence, vileness and destructiveness of his attitude in such matters: Matthew 7 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Only that part of us who loves ourselves and money, rather than God, will become testy and downright brutal in defense of ourselves and our money. Yet Jesus has made it perfectly clear that those of who love and devote themselves to God will hate money, and those who do will not share the glory that belongs to God alone with anyone or anything else -- including ourselves and money. Deuteronomy 8 17 You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today. 19 If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed. 20 Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God. May The Lord God allow any who read this post and become offended by it to recognize the spirit that is resposible for this perceived offense -- and be delivered from it in Jesus' Name. Amen.

These are your words, unaltered, from post #4 of this thread: When I brought up your statement, you avoided explaining it like the plague. And you still have not dealt with it. You made the statement, not I. An honest, humble, and forthright Christian explains something like this when asked about it. They do not avoid the question. They do not dance around the question. They do not accuse the asker of hoarding wealth or being a lover of money. They explain what they meant without tossing out baseless accusations. The fact is, the majority of Americas do not live luxurious lifestyles. And while you single out America, every single country one could name has people in it who live in poverty and others who have great wealth. That is the way the world has always been. No country exists in which every resident lives exactly the same lifestyle and has the exact same amount of money and possessions as everyone else. Sir, my statement was about those who enjoy luxurious lifestyles and the fact is, many more Americans have and still do take for granted everyday what those living in third world nations consider luxuries. In general, we Americans are spoiled compared to people living in other countries. My statement also specifically referred to the Power Elite who have declared this world a Global Community. If the shoe does not fit you personally, Cobalt, then why are you putting it on as though it does? Many popular Christian ministers today miss the true point of Christ's Gospel and the "treasure" it speaks to and preach instead a gospel promising worldly gain -- which is enmity toward God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 6 ...constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. This statement is as true today as it was in Paul's day. But if you are not among those who enjoy the things most Americans take for granted daily -- computers with Internet and games, cell phones, Food Stamps for the poor and plentiful food selections at indoor markets without flies, air conditioning, satellite TV, movies at your fingertips, indoor plumbing, football and NASCAR races, having pets you can afford to feed and care for rather than eat, a personal motor vehicle, etc. -- then why take what I said so personally? I truly am sorry if you took offense to what I said, but my question is why did you if you are not among those I was referring to?

Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine. The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it. Great wealth in the face of extreme poverty has always existed within the world. It is not something new. The earth has never been a place of a level playing field when it comes to material possessions. The End Times are marked, as were the days of Noah by the world being over-run by wickedness. Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness. RE: "Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine." I hear someone who loves money and wants to justify holding on to it. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." RE: "The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it." So should we believe you or God's Word, Colbalt? James 5:1-6 (NIV) Warning to Rich Oppressors Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you. RE: "Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness." Revelation 18:1-3 (NIV) Lament Over Fallen Babylon After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. With a mighty voice he shouted: “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’ She has become a dwelling for demons and a haunt for every impure spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal. For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” Who historically hoards wealth and why, Cobalt? Is it the faithful or the fearful? Those who care for others as they care for themselves, or those who care more for themselves? Disciples of Christ Jesus are to be doing as He did. When did Jesus hoard wealth and advise His disciples to do likewise? Yet if anyone would have been entitled to have much in this world, would it not have been the Lord Himself? Yet He set us a very different example: Luke 12:13-21 The Parable of the Rich Fool Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.” Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine. The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it. Great wealth in the face of extreme poverty has always existed within the world. It is not something new. The earth has never been a place of a level playing field when it comes to material possessions. The End Times are marked, as were the days of Noah by the world being over-run by wickedness. Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness. Let Cobalt produce "proof" of what he said he smells in what I posted. Rarely is one so defensive about something they do not love.

At this point I do not know if there is a "rapture" or not. I do know that The Lord promises to protect those who are His in wherever circumstances we find ourselves. Whether I am in this body of flesh, or out of this body, my instructions are ever the same: Love God and others as myself. This simplifies my life so that the circumstances -- which are many and everchanging -- do not supercede my singular purpose, which is to do the Will of the Father one day, one moment at a time. Many circumstances, one instruction = simplicity, money or no money, health or no health, body or no body...

That will not work, and people who post something and then pretend like they never said it, or attempt to place the blame for having said in on someone else have a very short shelf life here. If you are preaching a social doctrine, that all wealth is bad and that everyone should give away all that they have, or they are not a Christian, you are are not my "brother." Because that false doctrine is not found within the pages of the Bible. You didn't get it from the Bible and propagating such a teaching is spreading false doctrine. If you are going to claim things, at least have the integrity and internal consistency to stand by them after you have said them. You quoted me in your other post, then said I wrote something that anyone who read my post could see I did not say. You flat-out lied in print. Therefore you are correct -- I am NOT your brother!

It appears you have misunderstood the question. I was not bringing up the love of money. However, it has been my observation that those who do not have money are quick to state that they don't want it. I am not saying you have no money, I am saying that I don't think you understood the application of my question or, you just wanted the opportunity to quote those verses. I find your definition to be adding somewhat, to grace and simple faith. Jesus spoke those words to someone still under law. We are not under law. For your information, I am not accumulating sums of wealth...just payin the bills, no doubt, as you are. I don't know why you appeared to have thought you needed to take this to the nth degree You have taken my post way off course...this may be your own personal hobby horse, but it is not mine. There is nothing wrong with money...the problem is actually a lack of love as per I Cor 13....seems it does not matter if you even die, if you don't love, God does not care...in Corinthians we learn that even if you give it all away and are a superior Christian in every way that those who judge such things take note, if you don't love, it means.....n o t h i n g This seems to be one of those threads in which much ado about nothing goes on for several pages until finally it gets shut down because it becomes personal. I have hardly been the only one to mention money in this post. Have you not read the remarks others have made in response that have kept it going in this direction as well? I quoted many scriptures referring to the love of money and showing how the desire for wealth leads people astray. It's a very slippery slope. That's why Jesus said in no uncertain terms that the love of God and the love of money cannot co-exist in the same heart. Just watch what comes down the line in the future. All Christians will be forced to choose one or the other -- God OR money. Money is what the mark of the beast is all about. People will not be able to buy or sell without it, and buying and selling takes some form of money. I think you'll see many so-called Christians taking the mark to save themselves from suffering -- despite the fact that they've been told ahead of time that to take it numbers them among the Godless.

That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel. (Not singling you out sevenseas.) Would you please support your statement with a quote from the True Gospel. Your answer might reveal something as to your motives. Because you do not question what Liberation Theology is. And Liberation Theology was formulated and espoused by factions within a specific denomination. The fact is, for the last couple of days, the posts you make condemn wealth in any form. So that sounds like Liberation Theology, and/or Social Doctrine. However: Job 42:10-17 10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring. 12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. 16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years. As long as you have these passages in the Bible, Liberation Theology is a horse standing on one wooden leg. Job had great wealth. He had even more after his testing. David had great wealth and God calls David a man after His own heart. Solomon had great wealth and God had Him build a temple to Him. Jehoshaphat had great wealth and he was devoted to the ways of the Lord. So your continual assertions that wealth is always condemned rings hollow. Wealth is not condemned, in and of itself. Mis-use of wealth, and love of wealth for it's own sake is condemned. Jesus says of the rich man that it is hard for him to find the way to heaven, not impossible. I have not "condemned wealth in any form," sir. This is simply the "spin" you -- who obviously love money -- put on the scriptures I have quoted that touch on that nerve. I do not question the brand of theology you mention because I've never heard of them to subscribe to them. The only theology and doctrine I subscribe to is The Word of God, period. So stop trying to squeeze me into one box or another in your judgmental labeling system so you can condemn what I've said. I stand on the Word of God alone. The reason God gave Job twice as much as he had before he lost it all is because Job did not stop believing in God after he lost it all, as many Christians would do today if what happened to Job were to happen to them. So unless you've experienced something like Job did, using Job's situation to justify your fondness for wealth is not valid. You still have not quoted the True Gospel to support your views. Could that be because you can't find anything in the Gospel to support your view?

Amen! Some people get their panties all in a bunch at anyone coming between them and their money -- even when what's said is directly from The Lord's own mouth. The degree of one's resistence to The Word reveals an area in which their priorities should be examined. It's a "sore" subject for them, which should tell them something very important. Instead, they get vicious and insulting, which is definitely not of God. Such attitude merely proves Christ's word that no one can serve two masters.

Mark 4:18-19 "Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." We live in a world in which money is the common language and speech as well as the medium of exchange for anything and everything. This is what makes the potential to have a lot of it so deceitful. "You're worth it," wealth says. "You've earned it and you deserve it." Indeed, in this world, "Money talks" and "every man has his price," are common sayings. Why? If you walked down the street and offered every person you met either a Bible or $100, which do you think most would choose? While $100 might feed their bodies or fulfill their whims for a few days, the truth contained in the Bible could free and feed their spirits forever. Yet most would value and therefore choose money over a Bible because their treasure is in this physical-material world -- not in the "world" to come. Luke 18:22-25; :29-30 “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”... “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

That line of thinking is liberation theology, a false gospel. (Not singling you out sevenseas.) Would you please support your statement with a quote from the True Gospel.

1. So does that mean that all who have suffered for Christ were somehow being punished or judged? 2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy? 3. What are you saved out of? Where does Scripture state we are saved out of something? Jesus said we would suffer and be persecuted...and many Christians around the world are under terrible persecution. Wonder what they did to bring that on themselves. 4. That appears to have brought us full circle...please feel free to have another go 1 Timothy 6:9-11 (NIV) Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. The desire for wealth and the desire for God are contradictory and compete for our loyalty. As long as we have enough money in this world, we "feel" secure. But let our finances become shakey and we "feel" scared. See how easily money takes the place of God in our minds and hearts as the source of all we have? See how our ability to earn and have money provides us with a false sense of security that God alone provides? Deuteronomy 8:10-20 When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. He led you through the vast and dreadful wilderness, that thirsty and waterless land, with its venomous snakes and scorpions. He brought you water out of hard rock. He gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, something your ancestors had never known, to humble and test you so that in the end it might go well with you. You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today. If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed. Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God. Wealth was not intended to be hoarded by the few. Neither is it given so those who have the most can be exalted in the eyes of men and catered to like they were better than (>)others (<). Wealth is given to people by God to spread it around -- so that everyone has plenty not so the few have the most and can live like kings. Luke 12:48 "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine. The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it. Great wealth in the face of extreme poverty has always existed within the world. It is not something new. The earth has never been a place of a level playing field when it comes to material possessions. The End Times are marked, as were the days of Noah by the world being over-run by wickedness. Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness. RE: "Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine." I hear someone who loves money and wants to justify holding on to it. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." RE: "The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it." So should we believe you or God's Word, Colbalt? James 5:1-6 (NIV) Warning to Rich Oppressors Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you. RE: "Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness." Revelation 18:1-3 (NIV) Lament Over Fallen Babylon After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. With a mighty voice he shouted: “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’ She has become a dwelling for demons and a haunt for every impure spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal. For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” Who historically hoards wealth and why, Cobalt? Is it the faithful or the fearful? Those who care for others as they care for themselves, or those who care more for themselves? Disciples of Christ Jesus are to be doing as He did. When did Jesus hoard wealth and advise His disciples to do likewise? Yet if anyone would have been entitled to have much in this world, would it not have been the Lord Himself? Yet He set us a very different example: Luke 12:13-21 The Parable of the Rich Fool Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

Everyone in the United States lives in the lap of luxury? Brother, those are your words, not mine.