fruitfull77

This is both true and biblical Show me scripture that states our sins are recorded and how? And then show me scripture that says they are forgiven? This is just one way sins are recorded Jeremiah 17 King James Version (KJV) 17 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars; How are our good works recorded ? God (Jesus Christ) is omniscient . He knows everything about everyone-He knows the number of hairs on your head. so He knows all the good and evil deeds that everyone has done. Our good works are recorded by His divine nature.They don't have to be entered in books. He is the book. But in the second resurrection all those whoever lived will be given an opportunity for salvation. even tho they have done evil deeds they will be given a chance to repent and shown the way and the truth from God's books of righteousness. They will be subject to satan's influence again but this time they will know right from wrong and they will have to make the right choices according to God's laws whether they will be entered into the book of life for all of eternity. They are entered in books because the saints will use these same books to judge the world God is the only one that is the Judge of all -Hebrews 12:23 The saints will not be the ones to determine who gets eternal life, salvation-that authority has been given to God's Son, Jesus Christ. The saints will be judges in the 1,000 year period(mill) regarding doctrine matters and civil cases. But only Jesus Christ has the authority to grant everlasting life.

This is both true and biblical Show me scripture that states our sins are recorded and how? And then show me scripture that says they are forgiven? This is just one way sins are recorded Jeremiah 17 King James Version (KJV) 17 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars; How are our good works recorded ? God (Jesus Christ) is omniscient . He knows everything about everyone-He knows the number of hairs on your head. so He knows all the good and evil deeds that everyone has done. Our good works are recorded by His divine nature.They don't have to be entered in books. He is the book. But in the second resurrection all those whoever lived will be given an opportunity for salvation. even tho they have done evil deeds they will be given a chance to repent and shown the way and the truth from God's books of righteousness. They will be subject to satan's influence again but this time they will know right from wrong and they will have to make the right choices according to God's laws whether they will be entered into the book of life for all of eternity. All who come in the second resurrection are cursed doomed for hell no second chance the bible does not teach a second chance in the second resurrection five wise virgins five foolish door shut no opening of door The first resurrection are the saints, those in Christ. This happens when Christ returns at the onset of the 1,000 period (mill) The second resurrection are the rest of the dead. A lot of them have no part in Christianity nor know nothing of Christ or the Bible-Buddhists, Muslims, infants. For them the 2nd resurrection will be a first chance at salvation.

This is both true and biblical Show me scripture that states our sins are recorded and how? And then show me scripture that says they are forgiven? This is just one way sins are recorded Jeremiah 17 King James Version (KJV) 17 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars; How are our good works recorded ? God (Jesus Christ) is omniscient . He knows everything about everyone-He knows the number of hairs on your head. so He knows all the good and evil deeds that everyone has done. Our good works are recorded by His divine nature.They don't have to be entered in books. He is the book. But in the second resurrection all those whoever lived will be given an opportunity for salvation. even tho they have done evil deeds they will be given a chance to repent and shown the way and the truth from God's books of righteousness. They will be subject to satan's influence again but this time they will know right from wrong and they will have to make the right choices according to God's laws whether they will be entered into the book of life for all of eternity.

The other books are not the bible but records of men sin That doesn't sound logical that Jesus wouldn't use the books of the Bible He gave us for instruction and the laws to live by to judge others. what standard of purity and righteousness can be discerned from books comprised of sins of murder and sexual deviations to name a few? It makes sense that God would use His own guidebook of morals and ethics and His laws He gave us to live by=the Bible- to determine justice, just as we have the books of the criminal code in our civil lives. Federal judges don't decide the rule of law based on criminal acts but rather on statutory laws pertaining to such acts. Think about it. How are sins recorded ? Everything you say,think and do are recorded.God does that. we have to look at what the Great White throne judgment is. It's everybody else that has lived throughout the history of mankind. many of them we could say know nothing about Jesus Christ or the laws of God not being exposed to anything relative to the Bible. this could be their first time knowing God's world. Why would God judge them without them having any prior knowledge of His commandments and Holy days. It would seem they would be shown God's way through the books of the Bible and then after a period of time of learning the truth be judged according to their actions and deeds based on God's laws. Then comes the Judgment based on their performance and acceptance. Remember there is no real time frame mentioned between the 2nd resurrection and the Great White Throne judgment. Would God hold them accountable for something they never knew-like the Sabbath for instance. A lot of these people would be totally ignorant of God's way and since God acts fairly and merciful I'm sure He would give them a chance to be saved by introducing the Bible and its instructions to them and after a given time proceed with a judgment based on their obedience to His word. the 1st resurrection are the saints-they knew God and kept His word. In the 2nd resurrection it's everybody else that existed-billions of people- God wouldn't judge them until they learned the truth-that's the God I believe in. and that judgment should come from the books of the Bible which would lead to the Book of Life.

The other books are not the bible but records of men sin That doesn't sound logical that Jesus wouldn't use the books of the Bible He gave us for instruction and the laws to live by to judge others. what standard of purity and righteousness can be discerned from books comprised of sins of murder and sexual deviations to name a few? It makes sense that God would use His own guidebook of morals and ethics and His laws He gave us to live by=the Bible- to determine justice, just as we have the books of the criminal code in our civil lives. Federal judges don't decide the rule of law based on criminal acts but rather on statutory laws pertaining to such acts. Think about it.

Interestingly enough God has ordained certain Holy days as a commanded feast. Exodus 12:14 - " And this day shall be unto you for a memorial and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." These feast days are a reminder how God not only delivered ancient Israel out of Egypt but more important of our deliverance in the New Testament out of sin by God through His Son, Jesus Christ. The seventh day Sabbath is anything but just a ceremonial law. It was given at the time of creation, long before Moses. I believe the 4th commandment begins with " Remember the Sabbath day......" Jesus or the apostles never mentioned the 4th commandment when listing some of God's law because they were living in a Sabbath keeping society. There was no conflict-the 7th day Sabbath was the only established weekly Holy day. The 7th day Sabbath was set apart from the beginning by God as a sign between Him and mankind and sanctified or made Holy. Only God can do that.

in Rev 20:12- and the books(plural) were opened-these are the books of the Bible, and another book was opened, which is the book of life. and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books(the books of the bible which contained all God's laws and instructions) according to their works. God was using the books of the bible as His standard for judging and our works as evidence. That's the way I see it anyway.

OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. I thought so too. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. I thought so too. Only generalizing some questions-it's not about you personally. But what do you think was God's purpose for making a covenant with Abraham ?

You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Scripture interprets itself.

I do not deny these things. The debate is over the promise being "transferred" from "Israel" to "the Church", and that is an incorrect understanding of the covenants. I don't quite understand the resistance to the idea of the promises being transferred to the Church of God. All people can now share in the promises God made to Abraham through Jesus Gal 3:29 -that's a good thing. God grafts all who become His servants into the family of Abraham. -that's good isn't it?-Romans 11:13 God's promises was never to be limited to a small ancient people-it extends into the future-and that future is within the church. God chose Abraham to be His servant because God had a plan to offer salvation onto all of mankind. Abraham and the covenants were a crucial step reconciling all humanity to Himself. Jesus and the Apostles regarded the promises made to Abraham as the foundation of their work.-Act 3:13, 25 I don;t see the wrong in understanding what they understood.

Nebula- Jesus the anointed one-the promised Messiah from the OT was conceived by the Holy Spirit set apart for a special purpose fulfilling the spiritual promises to Abraham of the promise that all the families of the earth shall be blessed. The creation of the Holy Bible would be a part of that spiritual promised blessing as well. Jesus was born of a divine nature by means of Mary His human mother but He was both God and man with a special spiritual essence not like any other person. He was the Son of God. and His deity would effect the promises and prophecies from the Old Testament to a spiritual level. We can obey laws and rituals forever but if God did not fulfill the promise of the coming of the Messiah and His subsequent sacrifice we would never be justified and have the potential to be saved.

God uses names in the bible a lot of times to reflect a purpose or signify what the person represents - Jesus means " God is our salvation ". And Israel's name applied to Israel. There is not indication the body of believers whom we in English call "the Church" is not a single person, not founded by anyone but Jesus, and was not given a name - like the man Abraham or the man Israel were given. Please list these spiritual promises. I hope you know that there was more than one covenant in the Old Testament? Adam had a covenant, Noah had a covenant, Abraham had a covenant, The children of Israel with Moses had a covenant, David had a covenant. The "old covenant" spoken of in Heb. and 2 Cor. was the Mt. Sinai covenant, the one cut with the children of Israel with Moses, also known as the Mosaic covenant. Agreed, but nothing in the covenant states a replacing of "Israel". The new covenant was given to the Israel (the Jews), as was prophecied, but the people of the nations (the gentiles) were granted access to this covenant as well. Only a remnant from both sides (Jews and Gentile) received this covenant. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham. Canaan was given to the the descendants of Israel, not the descendants of "Abraham." That Covenant only passes on through Isaac and Jacob (Israel). Re: Spiritual promises to Israel we can look at Gen 49:10 -one of the spiritual promises God made to Abraham was the promise of the Messiah, His Son Jesus Christ, coming as our savior to redeem us from our sins and provide the way to eternal life. The descendants of Israel were also the descendants of Abraham.

The Gentiles do not need to be circumcised because we are not under the covenant of Abraham. We are under the New Covenant of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus' New Covenant, not a part of of the old Abrahamic Covenant. Just because the word "Israel" has a meaning, that does not mean his name applies to us. God uses names in the bible a lot of times to reflect a purpose or signify what the person represents - Jesus means " God is our salvation ". Abraham, Israel, received physical promises but the spiritual promises of the covenant were to come with the ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Heb 8: 6-8 -shows the old covenant had been broken by disobedience-and 2 Cor 3:6-9 show the new covenant is part of the better promises With Jesus we see the physical aspects of the old covenant like sacrifices, circumcision are no longer required. Jesus represents the new priesthood. Circumcision can be voluntary but not necessary for salvation regardless of physical lineage or heritage. Viewing circumcision as necessary, even to the Jewish converts to Christianity would imply that faith and the blood of Jesus was not enough for them. We obey the law of circumcision when our attitudes are circumcised. We no longer need an outward sign with our savior Jesus Christ. We are keeping both covenants with the better promises of inward obedience written in our hearts. The physical promised land was Canaan -the spiritual promised land is the Kingdom of God.

The difference is what is described in Romans 11 - being a natural branch versus a wild branch. Natural branches and wild branches have different functions to the olive tree. Yes, we are all under the New Covenant of Jesus' blood. But this covenant was a new covenant, not an extension of any previous covenant, including the covenant with Israel. The Jewish believers are under both covenants. We Gentiles are not. The Jewish believers were trying to force the Gentiles into the Abrahamic covenant, which is why they were pushing them to get circumcised. Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant with Abraham. Look it up, it's there! Paul was telling the Gentile believers they did not need to be circumcised to be a part of the covenant becausethe Gentiles were under a New Covenant, not the old one which required circumcision. The covenant with Abraham that was passed on to Isaac and Jacob (Israel) and his descendants also included an inheritance to the land. Did Paul or anyone else ever advocate for the Gentile believers to possess the land of Judea (what it was called back then)? No, it does not. That is an interpretation you and whomever you learned this theology from put it there. Not disagreeing with you there. That still does not make the New Covenant the same as the Old Covenant, nor does it make Gentiles a part of the Old Covenant. (Why do you want to be a part of the Old Covenant anyway?) The Lexicon and the Etymology of the word "church" disagree with you on this. I do not use the KJV translation as my final authority. The word "church" does not mean "assembly" nor "called out", it means "Lord's house", which is an entirely different meaning. The Holy Spirit was not included in Abraham's covenant. The OP is about the blessings of Abraham transferring over to "the church". The issue of there being no difference between Jew and Greek is a matter of the New Covenant under Jesus, not the Old Covenant blessings of Abraham. Explain this one with Scriptural references please? Paul is telling the NT church that circumcision is no longer required by everyone. He was teaching circumcision is that of the heart-Rom 2:29- Physical circumcision was a temporary custom. we are all one now with Jesus. Circumcision is nothing-the only thing that matters is keeping the commandments of God-1Cor 7:19 Israel is made up of 12 tribes which are descendants of Abraham not just Judah and Benjamin The Holy Spirit was always a promise made by God to His people-The advent of the NT church fulfilled that promise for all mankind The meaning of Israel is from the Bible dictionaries

Hi Rob, Actually, the promises to Abraham are given to the Gentiles through Christ. Many Christians don't understand this because they have been tught the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine. The believers "hope" is not to go live in Heaven, it is to spend eternity in the restored land. God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the land as an everlasting possession. 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen 13:14-15 KJV) Then it was given to Isaac, KJV Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Gen 26:1-5 KJV) It was also given to Jacob KJV Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV) This phrase the "blessing of Abraham" is tied directly to the inheritance of the Land. The phrase is used only twice in the Bible here in Genesis and Paul uses it to apply the "Blessing of Abraham" to the Gentiles. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14 KJV) The Gentiles receive the "blessing of Abraham" (the land) through faith in Christ. God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed. The Jews understood this to mean that they as the seed of Abraham would inherit the promises. The Jews understood Seed as a collective group, themselves, however, Paul says that the Jews misunderstood. He argues that when God said the promises were to Abraham and his Seed, He meant it singularly and not in the plural and that that Seed is Christ. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV) The land was promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Christ. It is through faith in Christ that the Gentiles receive the inheritance which is the land promised to Abraham. I've written a paper on this subject if you'd like to read more. I go into much greater detail and use a lot Scripture to show that this is indeed what the Bible teaches. The Paper is "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical perspective)" I hope this helps and let me know if I can answer any questions you have. In Gal 3:13-" Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" what exactly is the curse of the Law since Christ had to redeem us from it? I understand it to be death, the same death from the wages of sin which would be the breaking of the law.

Can you prove that? 13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. When Paul says, "And those who will walk by this rule," he is referring to the Gentile believers, the uncircumcised. When he says, "the Israel of God," he is referring to the Jewish believers, the circumcised. The word "church" is not the correct translation, though. Origin: before 900; Middle English chir(i)che, Old English cir(i)ce ≪ Greek kȳri(a)kón (dôma) the Lord's (house), neuter of kȳriakós of the master, equivalent to kȳ́ri(os) master (kŷr(os) power + -ios noun suffix) + -akos, variant of -ikos -ic; akin to Dutch kerk, German Kirche, Old Norse kirkja. See kirk Source So the word "church" is a poor replacement for the word "assembly" or the word "congregation," No, they are called a "congregation," not "the Lord's house". Pentecost was the Greek word for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, when the Jews celebrated the giving of the Law from Mt. Sinai. The ones the Holy Spirit fell on were all Torah-observing Jews. Again, there is no "spiritual Israel." Neither was God creating a "parallel plan." There was always only one plan. There is a huge difference between a foreshadow and a parallel. This verse has nothing to do with a "spiritual Israel" nor does it mention anything about replacing one thing for another. 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, A better argument can be made for the author of Hebrews to be referring to the the people of God from past who are in heaven than to the people of God here on the earth. In Romans 3, Paul made a distinction between the Jews who had been given and kept the word of God and the Gentile believers. In Gal 6 the subject matter is the Church and Paul is addressing gentile converts. Israel covers all people both Jews and gentiles The rule to walk by is from the previous verse that God doesn't care if you are circumcised or not, you are all one in Christ. Church is the english translation of the Greek word ekklesia generally means " called out" but commonly used to indicate an assembly as used in Acts 19:32,39 Church is used in the original KJV bible referring to the called out ones with Moses in the desert. The Holy Spirit was available for all people Jews and gentiles. There is no difference between Jew or Greek in the NT -righteousness comes from having faith and keeping His Law Israel means one who prevails with God and the NT church is expected to honor that definition What difference do you think there is between the Jewish believers in the NT church and the gentile believers?

No, the Church is not a spiritual Israel. The NT never spiritualizes israel to refer to the Church. The Church is NEVER called Israel. Israel is Israel. the Church is the Church. They are radically separate in the NT. In Gal 6: 15-16 - we see the church being referred to as the Israel of God. We know an assembly, a body of people, a congregation, is called a church. In Acts 7:38 we see the people of Israel under Moses being referred to the " church in the wilderness" Just as Israel was called out of Egypt, we in today's world have been called out of the sinning ways of the world by following Christ through the church He created on Pentecost. God used physical Israel to help Him bring forth Spiritual Israel-paralleling His plan of salvation for mankind. Just as in Ezekiel 36 where God's spirit is promised to Israel, Ephesians 2:22 describes the indwelling of God's spirit to the church. Israel was God's first born Ex 4:22 And the New Testament church is referred to as God's first born Heb 12:23 The church has an important role to mankind-first by receiving the physical blessings in the OT and then by receiving the spiritual blessings in the NT through Christ.

Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise." Through Christ all nations are to be blessed. The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ) Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

God and angels are real beings, of course. But in Ezekiel chapter 1, it tells us the heavens opened and Ezekiel saw " visions of God " verse 1 God uses dreams and visions to let His prophets know about His realm and also about what messages He wants them to relay to His people, warning of impending danger and future events. A vision by definition is something seen by the mind in one's thoughts or in a dream. The visions are loaded with imagery to make the impact more powerful. How many dreams have you had that seem so real? When it refers to " the hand of the Lord " verse 3, it represents the strength God was imparting to him. Isaiah and John in Revelation has similar visions of God's throne. Ezekiel continued to have many more visions of prophetic nature as God's messenger to the people of the time and future generations particularly for our time. A vision is the means by which God gives His prophets what He wants them to do and relay.

A vision is not a reality but rather a mental picture no one else may see. Cherubs, who attend to God's throne, have been described as having more than one set of wings-six in some cases. Could the wheels even be the wheels of the chariot that carries God's throne when being transported and the flapping or whirling be one set of high speed wings from the cherubs. Just thinking out loud

I think the appearance of spinning wheels inside a wheel were the wings of the cherub when they are transporting God's throne. Like a hummingbird or a helicopter you see the motion of the wings or blades moving almost in an interfacing way

These claims mad by people would not be consistent with Bible scripture. Psalms 6:5 Job 14:12 A person does not go immediately to their reward, good or bad. I can see a person being returned from hell hypothetically for a life lesson but being returned from heaven, if all that was even believable. I would distant myself from these spiritual stories. satan based or attention getters?

the Millennium, Latin for 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years. There is only one millennium. after the tribulation, when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom, the millennium period will have the saints now spirits ruling over physical human beings most of them coming out of the tribulation period. At the beginning of this 1,000 year reign on earth satan will be bound and put into a bottomless pit during the millennium rule. afterwards he will be loosed this one time only and will deceive all the people from the second resurrection-that is all the people whoever lived in history and were not called by God. They will be physical human beings and most scholars believe they will live for around 100 years. Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever after the battle of Gog and Magog. He will never be loosed again. those who overcome the influence of satan and are written in the book of life will join Jesus and God the Father on earth as spiritual beings on the new earth. The universe will become a possible frontier for the billions of children now in the family of God. That's the way I see it.

The view Amillennialism is now is not consistent with Bible scripture especially regarding the verses that claim the saints are still asleep and have not ascended to heaven yet. And Rev 20 shows the saints being resurrected at the return of Jesus Christ. This is the first resurrection, a future event as told to us by John.

The translation in Rev 21:10 should read " where the Beast and the false prophet were (not are)-and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever refers to the devil mentioned earlier in the verse. Being flesh and blood and not immortal they were subject to complete destruction. Rev 20::12-15 shows the dead risen for judgment not given the gift of immortality and not in the book of life and then cast into the lake of fire-it doesn't say tortured for them rather it says this is the second death-the destruction of their body and soul as Jesus mention in Matt 10:28