gray wolf

I think to find God by proofs. . . evidence with speaks to such proofs. . . that is not faith and that is not the way it is supposed to be. That is why the atheist will never find God in such a manner. I believe, but I do not have compelling proof to offer these people.

Actually there are exceptions to the rule in the Bible about speaking of Jesus. While I believe most of the Bible describes the Redemption story, I don't think Proverbs or Ecclesoastes point to the Messiah IMHO

I go to Mass now and then too. I prefer a regular church, but I am often touched by the otherworldliness of the Catholic liturgy. There is some Presence there, I think.

Oy veh! It's Jerry vs Enoch again. I love it!

I always wondered what happened to all that water

Yes and I know a thing or two about Schwermut!

??? I thought I made a rather clever reply earlier

I think it imaginable that they could work in concert with different outlets. Thi is, after all how the primitive myths work. But I emphasize the word myth. I think the majority of the world would write them off as fanciful stories.

You must have the Olympian pantheon in mind.

Absolutely logical. We believe it is one God by faith. Nature just doesn't supply enough evidence to say for sure. It simply seems to be designed.

How do we limit the number of creators to one Creator though? The arguments don't really convince us of this. One could conclude that there is a pantheon responsible and would be on solid footing. Of course that is not what we think for the most part these days, except for a few polytheistic religions. I don't know how many are responsible in Hindu mythology. My point is not to deny the existence of one Creator, rather to point out the limitations of the arguments. As Aloha rightly pointed out, the goal is to get people thinking.

I do it all the time when I stick my foot in my mouth

I think the arguments from design can be pretty sophisticated and convincing. But where does one bridge the gap? I mean between demonstrating that there is indeed a Creator, to saying that this Creator is indeed the God we worship? There are facets of design that present cases for benevolence, but there are also cases where the creation is less than desirable. I have heard it said that sin entering into the world brought about these bad things. But that presupposes that you have established that the Creator is God as we know Him.

You can go edit your post, then type over with a smiley or word (oops).

I would like to hear an alternative hypothesis. We must be careful of proposing a God of the Gaps in this case. We just don't know enough yet.

Where is it? YouTube?

It would have to have slowed down a LOT to compensate for the distances.

Are you talking about the Dr. Francis article ? Yes, I'd like to get it from the horse's mouth

I posted earlier a comment. I found the first article, but the only thing I found with the 2004 article is a summary in AiG

Sure, just ignore me.

The researchers are still looking for answers. . . I don't think they are ready to abandon the age of the universe yet. I can't find that 2004 article in New Scientist. Where did you find it? I could only find a reference to it in AiG.

So what do these wise guys propose

quote The Farthest Galaxies had to release their Light Long Long Long before the Closer Galaxies ​This does not follow. Could they not have released their light at a similar point in time? The closer galaxies could have released their light at a given period of time, but for a longer duration than the distant objects. An observer on Earth would have seen these closer galaxies first for a very long time before the distant light arrived. Of course that would be impossible given the "proposed" age of the earth.

I'm afraid Enoch has a point Jerry. You need to beef up your assertions with a bit more explanative narrative or references.