inchrist

And how does all of that prove I reject Christ salvation work on the Cross? Heres an Idea how about you stop adding additional salvation rules.... No you dont....answer Gods word Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith?

But a Messiah did, the very image of God. Why would I reject it when I uphold her perpetual virginity? You have the words intellectually and you spelled the words equipped wrong....at least get the words spelt correctly of you wish to display intellectual superiority? So you dont submit to the word of God? Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Then you cant call me an unbeliever in Christ...since my salvation doesnt hinge on the trinity doctrine Then the trinity doctrine is salvation. Which Im finding it all very hypocritical at the moment. And I have every right to correct you. Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. can you please explain how not observing the law is upholding the law?

This coming from a legalist who thinks the trinity doctrine is salvation I care very much about the word, and Im sorry to tell you but I am commended to correct you. Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. can you please explain how not observing the law is upholding the law? Please answer my question

Right so you care about the issue but you dont care what those who observe the law has to say about the issue? Tell me a wife refusing to observe a wedding anniversary or refusing to listen to her husband law.....is that a good marriage? Is that a Godly marriage?

Then why bring it up?

You need to show us that our actions has no consequences to refuse following the law

Let me put it this way, If your wife deliberately refuses to celebrate your wedding anniversary, the action is no grounds for a divorce, but however it doesnt help your marriage relationship does it?

Where does it state their reaction is due to the rapture? The only reaction you have in Rev 6:15-17 are cosmic events. Rev 7:9-17 is not a picture of the Rapture....the NT Greek actually refutes this position, since John is not looking at a single event but a continual event. No we are not, the 5th seal is the great tribilation as Christ states Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' In other words: Great tribulation then cosmic events. 5th seal then 6th seal We cant be in the 5th seal as the antichrist has not appeared yet.

Ok my memory ant so bad after all, again Marv thank you for your honesty.

Correct it is my only argument as I'm only focusing on Rev 4. I am not interested in other raptured verses apart from Rev 4 can contextually be satisfied. Im happy to treat Rev 4 as unanswered and we can move on to 2Th2:3 and only focuse on 2th 2:3, while I await actual contextual prove for Rev 4 Please understand I wish to treat every verse that is going to be used with due diligence. Currently as it stands you have not provided actual facts that Rev 4 is symbolic. I do not accept retro-fitting of verses, thats simply my own approach and methodology with scripture.

Montana Marv, correct me if I'm wrong, memory serving here...youre pre trib? If you are thank you for the honest look at the scripture....If not pre trib, again nevertheless it was a fantastic read. ...... Back to the rapture, correct John was only carried away in the spirit and not with the body, further we know John is taken to heaven, then taken back to earth, then taken to heaven again, then taken back to earth again through out Revelation as he depicts of what is occuring during the entire Revelation. If John is to be a symbol of the raptured church, we seem to have a yo-yo rapture.

You havnt proven that fact at all, youve been avoiding it. What contextual evidence in Rev 4 do you have that establishes John was meant to be seen as the raptured church, with the same so called rapture "symbolism" of Rev 1:10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Is John now John or is john the raptured church? What body of evidence do you have outside of Revelation, John has been seen as the raptured church? Simply stating john is symbolic of the raptured church and retro-fitting this with other scriptures isnt good enough.

Yes and Jacob had two brides, preciously as christ. Jacob worked 7 years for leah Christ works 7 yrs for his first bride (house of Ephraim) 70 weeks Jacob then married rachel and worked a further 7 yrs Christ will then marry his second bride (house of judah) amd will work a further 7 years for Judah buring weapons (7 yrs) You should also be aware in ancient jewish customs, two witnesses needed to escort the bride safely to the groom. Thats an opinion not a scriptual rebuttal What does the term time to judge the dead mean? Or to reward your servants mean?

Rev 11:18 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, Like 14:14 Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." No symbolism needed, its literal. Since Ive been kind enough to answer your question, please answer mine Rev 1 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Is john now John or the raptured church? Do you have any scripture evidence of John ever being used as a symbol of the raptured church outside of Revelation or outside of Rev 4? What contextual evidence do you have within the verse of Rev 4 for the symbolism of John being the raptured church?

Can you please try remain focused as I wish to apply due diligence to all the verses you are giving me, and believe me we will go through them all, but right now, I am only interested in Rev 4 of John being a symbol of the raptured church. The Christian thing to do now teacher is to answer a students question. Rev 1 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Is john now John or the raptured church? Do you have any scripture evidence of John ever being used as a symbol of the raptured church outside of Revelation or outside of Rev 4? What contextual evidence do you have within the verse of Rev 4 for the symbolism of John being the raptured church?

Please answer my question Rev 1 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Is john now John or the church?

Nothing is confirmed with 2 Thess 2:3 I'm addressing your so called symbolism of john/church rev 4 The symbolism is inconsistent Rev 1 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Is john now John or the church?

This coming from someone who thinks God in Ezekiel 37 is going to resurrect an exceedingly great army for it to run away when the antichrist comes and later 2/3rds to be destroyed....great work

Did you forget about the House of Judah? On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblestamong them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. Mourning for the One They Pierced 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weepingin Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

This is nothing more than an attempt to suppress the biblical right to test all things. You do not own the right to biblical interpretation. Period! You have been shown your symbolism of John/church in Rev 4 to be inconsistent....does Dr Ice not have a rebuttal on the inconsistency for you? New Jerusalem is made out of living stones the measure of a man As taught by Peter you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ Nevertheless this still does not give the timing of the pretrib rapture Thankfully not from pretribs You not paying attention.....I never stated I was post trib. I do accept we go into the state of heaven. Edited: sure first fruits resurrected, however the dead in christ not yet ressurected. I beg to differ Rev 11:18 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your nam ezekiel 37 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Rev 20 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not … Daniels 70th week is a marriage proposal, the covenant (marriage proposal) has nothing to do with the antichrist. This is set forth in scripture dominance of Christ making a covenant with many and the prophetic pattern of Jacob, leah and rachel Mat 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. no where in the entirety of the bible does apostasia mean rapture. the word is used one other time acts 21:21 the Gentiles to forsake Moses, If we put the word departure in, no problem the Gentiles depart from Moses The word departure, no problem to mean a departure from faith Lets put the word rapture in the Gentiles raptured from Moses What are we saying here? The gentiles were raptured from Moses? Seriously? You are changing the very definition of the word departure used by the Holy spirit, who preserved the meaning of the word to be revolt or departure from faith. No where does apostasia mean a departure from earth, it is used in direct correlation in NT Greek with a departure/ revolt from religion. Doctrines built from silence will inevitable be found false

No, Im calling pre trib a lie big difference. Rev 4 gives no contextual evidence for symbolism of the Church. This is complete fabrication. By the same technique you are forced to admit, symbolic church is then taken back to earth for the tribulation Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns Further again how can John be symbolic of the Church raptured when he is to write to the church back on earth On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna,Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” Your symbolic use of John as the raptured church is proven inconsistent And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Rev 11:18 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants 1 th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first luke 19:15 Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it."He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. ............................ luke 31:26 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Context states christ teachings not to fall away from him, if we become distracted by the things christ warned us of, you wont see it coming and will be taking by surprise. The escape Christ is talking about has nothing to do with pre trib. It is escaping temptation to fall away. Further even the NT greek is against you katischysēte verb means to have strength against Have strength against falling away so you may escape out of it not from it. ............ As for your mansions......please show me in Revelation these mansions? The text has absolutely nothing to do with billion dollar real estates. The meaning is abode, the adjective form is abiding The adjective for ménō is menomen 1 John 4:13 This is how we know that we live (mansion) in him and he (mansion) in us: He has given us of his Spirit John 14:2 states nothing to support timing of pretrib. But that of rewards. Rev 11:18 refutes your timing The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants Still does not support your timing of pretrib. Doctrines built on silence will always be shown to be false Side note.....i would drop the rhetoric. Your posts are not above testing.

Still does not prove a pre trib rapture.... You mistake me for a traditional postrib....im prebowl rapturist, in other words 7th trumpet rapture marriage to his first bride then rev 19 christ coming for his second bride. If you going to use John as the church in Rev 4 for the rapture, then you must accept John (church) dejection back to earth in Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. Which defeats the pretrib objective to be raptured away from the beast. There is simply no literal evidence for pretrib rapture of which you can boast of

Revelation 4:1-2New International Version (NIV) The Throne in Heaven 4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heavenwith someone sitting on it. Where do you see the resurrected and raptured church here, this is nothing more than hijacking Johns experience. Everything youve provided here is pure speculations. Where is a literal ressurection at a literal trumpet? Ive got one, 7th trumpet, christ judging the dead, wheres yours? Even the post tribs can brag of a literal Christ descending in Rev 19. Pre tribs have no literal verse. No literal resurrection at a literal trumpet with a literal Christ. Doctrines built from silence will inevitably be shown to be false.

Rev 11 We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets