inchrist

False prophets don't look for answers, students do....Diaste is a student looking for answers

We gonna have to wait for an answer from the pretribs....on the how.... But I can confirm your answer I'm afraid has not been answered in this thread as of yet.

Well Ive read from top to bottom and that's all you've gotten for an answer. And then mudslinging for a few pages.

Pre tribs call them tribulation saints, saints who became believers only after the pretrib rapture occured.

Which can't be proved

Mathew 24 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand (AoD) .............. — 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (GREAT TRIBULATION) .............. Immediately after the distress of those days (GREAT TRIBULATION) “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b] (COSMIC EVENTS FROM 6TH SEAL TO 6TH TRUMPET) 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] (Christ appears) ...................... The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” (CHRIST TAKES HIS KINGDON OF THE WORLD) .......... The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” (THE DEAD ARE JUDGED AND SERVANTS REWARDED) ......... Rev 16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” (WRATH)

The judgement in the bowls are permanent. I can point you to Jeremiah concerning this effect that of Babylon. Instead of focusing on the judgment, the real focus is the separation. And this separation occurs at the 7th trumpet because it states so. Rev 11 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” If I accept your statement it's only a "proclamation", then we must determine that the nation's are only angry at the end of the millennium and God's wrath only comes at the end of the millennium. That it is also impossible to determine sheep's and goats in the bowl judgments, because we find no judgment of sheep's and goats during the bowls? Because we can't determine who is cursed to the lake of fire? Yes but nowhere does it state the rest of the body of christ. This is something you have inferred into the text itself. Imagine Christians who survived the tribulation must now spend 1000 yrs outside the kingdom of God, disinherited, simply because they weren't beheaded? Then these words are absolutely meaningless 2 Timothy 2 If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself Those Christians who survived will not reign with Christ. ( since only the imperishable inherit the kingdom 1 Cor 15:50) Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. How can that be for survivors of the Christian body? How would Christian survivors share wih him in glory? All Christian survivors will have no part, no positioning in the kingdom of God in the millennium, none, therefore no glory. This is a Jewish idiom "the day and hour unknown" = points to the feast of trumpets which occurs 10 days before Yom Kippur. Let's look again at Matthew 24 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f]but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man So your saying Christ only comes at the end of the Millennium? Let's look at 2 Peter 3 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? So Christ only comes at the end of the millennium? Could you care to explain? So the following isn't proof? 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle..... .....Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. Could you care to explain when in history this has occurred? It hasn't, you know it hasn't. See here's the problem, your under this strange believe that Christ is incapable of punishing people during his "peaceful" reign in the millennium. That Christ can not destroy, punish or commit capital punishment in HIS kingdom , what kimd of a King is that? Which by the way he seems to only come for after the millennium with your time line. Because your eschatology is just not added up...it's not fitting.

No I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge Who are these people sitting on thrones given authority to judge? No, you can see the goats being separated in Rev 16 “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; 6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.” Rev 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. 10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done They are departed from Christ as per Matthew 24 Matthew 25:41 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels There's a big difference in telling someone to depart from me to actually throwing someone into the lake of fire. thrown into the lake of fire. Matthew 25 is not describing events after a 1000 yrs, Matthew 25 is describing events that are occurring in the bowl judgments. Then you shouldn't have a problem showing me scripture of a literal resurrection at the end of the bowls of wrath that actually shows what you are stating. 1) I want a literal voice of Christ 2) I want a literal trumpet sound 3) I want a literal verse of a literal resurrection Can you also please provide evidence in the verse those are the rest of the body of Christ? and prophecy is fulfilled Revelation 10:7 New International Version (NIV) 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets Please provide scriptural text on this mystery that was announced to his servants the prophets? you missed so much in Rev 15 look here: Matthew 25:10 (temple open and temple door shut) “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut (No man could enter because the door is shut) Rev 15 temple open 5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened And Rev 15 temple door shut no man could enter And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed All of this at the 7th trumpet Further can you please provide evidence of Zechariah 14:17 is not millennium?

Absolutely but subtracting from the text is just as unwise. You are still ignoring this group: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. [/quote] And focusing instead on this group And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God There are two mentioned groups here. Let me show you:- John in his narrative, first sees a group sitting on throwns in the verses first scene then moves chronologically to a second scene of those who have been beheaded. This is the flow of the verse If grammar and consistency has any value, you are in error - for example: The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. The first scene of this verse is the earth and heavens fled, then John in his narrative moves to the next scene And I saw the dead, great and small In other words John shows a chronological order of what he sees first and what he sees second. You however in our example here would ignore/subtract from the first scene heavens and earth fled and state John ONLY saw the dead great and small and NOT heaven and earth fled. This is exactly what you are doing with verse 20:4 You are subtracting the sentence or the visual scene of which John sees those who have been given authority sitting on throwns and focusing on the second chronological scene of those who have been beheaded instead, and not seeing the entire verse or entire picture of what John saw regarding the first resurrection. You are grammatically in error. You are sequentially incorrect, the books are opened after the separation of sheep's and goats. And it started here Rev 11 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth. As per Daniel 7:26,27 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ All kingdoms which are under heaven are handed over at the 7th trumpet Rev 11 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever. 7 th trumpet is where the court sits, and those judging is the totality of resurrected Christian body I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. Hence Christ comes with His rewards Revelation 22:12 Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done I really Don't think it's logical to sit here and state that these goats .... Revelation 16:9 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him ....are not departed from Christ and on their way to everlasting punishment. Unless you can show me anywhere in history where survivors of all nation's who attacked Jerusalem were forced to go worship on the feast of taburnacle and a documented history of no rain on a nation who refused to go worship on the feast of taburnacle per year?

We have only just scratching the surface, I havnt even begun to go through the 7th trumpet rapture. 1.There's still a host of Christ parables, 2. Numerous Prophetic templates for example the battle of Jericho, 3. The Law 4. Prophetic appointed feasts 7. 7 series month trumpets 5. The doctrine of sanctification 6. Jewish Wedding, specific jacob, Leah and Rachel 7. Hebrew eschatology / Judaic eschatology So this isnt the sheep? and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name,both great and small And this isnt the goats? and for destroying those who destroy the earth. And the goats in the 7 bowls arnt departed from Christ? Please notice the following: 1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed The word AT is a proximity word. It means - In the sphere of something where by it is either in, on, or near it's destination Given the 2 witnesses are resurrected AT the 7th trumpet, AT a trumpet is inline with 1 Cor 15:52 prophecy. John didn't miss anything but the possibility exists you yourself could of: Please consider the following - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. John saw thrones on where were seated those given authority to judge AND he saw the souls of those who were beheaded. John saw the totality of the church not just a partial group of the church. In line with Paul For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first There is no hint of a partial Christain body being ressurected. Let's test that and start with Zechariah 14:17 and explain how it's impossible for the context of Zechariah 14:17 to be for the millennium: 12 This is the plague with which the Lordwill strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, theLord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LordAlmighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing, and you're misinterpreting Hebrews 9:27 1 Timothy 2:4 New International Version who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth That is why it is appointed for man to die once, to be saved That is why it is stated in Rev 20:6 The second death has no power over them, Only to those who are saved. No where in the entirety of scripture, are the wicked granted immortality, eternal life or the tree of life, which is ONLY given to saints. However this has started to go off track, and one must explain how is it possible there is gnashing of teeth thrown into outside of darkeness which we have in the bowl judgments, and somehow mistrew that passages such as Matthew is for hell?

Rev 11 Here are your sheep and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name,both great and small Here are your goats and for destroying those who destroy the earth. Here is the kingdom Rev 11 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever. And here are the goats thrown out of the kingdom into darkness Matthew 8:12 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the DARKNESS, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Rev 16 The Fifth Bowl of God’s Wrath 10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into DARKNESS. And here is your gnashing of teeth Fifth bowl Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done. Fulfilling the prophecy: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment No I'm afraid Judgement has already started with the Church 1 Peter 4:17 NIV For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God You can also get that sense here of already judged Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Mortal - the opposite of immortal. One who is subject to death, the opposite of one who is immortal and not subject to death. Rev 20:6 Over such the second death has no power, (immortal) I never stated the moment you die that 3 days later you are raised....however you are raised 3 days later from and for an event. But first let's establish the biblical pattern Example 1 John 2:1-2 “And the Third DAY there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called and his disciples to the marriage.” John 2:1-11 And both Jesus was called and his disciples, to the marriage. Prophetic pattern Third day, Jesus and His disciples called to a marriage Please recall Matthew 25 again And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage : and the door was shut Let's see what else happened at the wedding of Cana....Christ CHANGED water into fine wine 1 Corinthians 15 “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(die), but we all shall be CHANGED, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED.” Example 2 Esther 5:1 Now it came to pass on the THIRD DAY, that Esther put on her royal apparel, Exodus 19:10, “And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. And BE READY against THE THIRD DAY: for the THE THIRD DAY the Lord will come down in the sight of ALL the PEOPLE upon mount Sinai” Please notice the following On the 3rd day Rev 11: 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them,and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. Example 3 Genesis 22:4 Then on the THE THIRD DAY Abraham lifted lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Luke 21:28 where we read these words And when these things begin to come to pass, then LOOK UP, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh Let's not pretend that Christ will not execute and punish people in the millennium Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people Ps 2:9; 72:9-11 2:9 You will break them with an iron scepter; you will smash them like a potter’s jar!’” 72:9 Before him the coastlands will bow down,and his enemies will lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts;the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.11 All kings will bow down to him;all nations will serve him. Isaiah 11:4 11:4 He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and order the wicked to be executed. Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

Firstly 1 cor 15 is directed to the body of Christ. This is the context Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain Those in Rev 20:12 is NOT the body of Christ And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The body of Christ is not judged by works for salvation And no where is it even hinted this is the body of Christ, in fact the opposite is hinted. Which leads to point 2 Secondly Rev 20:12 they are not raised imperishable, only the body of Christ is raised imperishable. 1 Cor 15:42 emphatically states that the body of Christ is raised imperishable So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable Rev 20:12 those people are raised mortal. Confirmed again in 1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Those in Rev 20:12 have not inherited the kingdom they have to stand before judgment first, they are therefore not the body of Christ because the body of Christ is raised imperishable having the kingdom. Rev 20:12 is a completely different group of people. Thirdly 1 cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery:We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. Is a direct quote from 1 Th 4:13-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Once again directed ONLY to the body of Christ. It's the same teaching Paul is repeating in 1 Cor 15. These are not two different trumpets. They are the same passage repeated to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians Christian body. What you propose is for Christ to only come at the end of the millennium. You now have the problem how did those saints IN Rev 20 become resurrected before the millennium ? Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Which now leads me the forth point Forth 1 cor 15 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” Do not make the same mistake you've done with the concept of the Millennium, that Christ is going to snap his fingers and all of a sudden there's peace. Christ has to rule with a rod of iron, He still has to punish people in the millennium. It is a 1000 year process for Christ. Otherwise if Christ simply just snapped his fingers, he may as well hand everything over to God and we have no need for this transitional 1000 year process. It is the same thing with this statement “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” It's a process, it started with Christ, then with his Christian body, then to whoever else. It's a process. If we look at the first ressurection in Rev 20 Clearly death has been swallowed up in victory for the Christian body, no one will argue that they will tear again. Then it filters down to those who weren't part of the body of Christ but somehow never heard the gospel never had a chance for salvation and so forth. It is a process. No, that is not what John 6:40 is stating, last day is not the last day of the millennium Consider the following: Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Last day is the last day of the 3rd day, it has nothing to do with the last day of the Millennium. Christ will ressurect us on the 3rd day being the last day Just like Christ who has raised on the last day of the third day. Interestingly the Last Day is mentioned seven times in "verily verily" John: 1. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at thelast day. 2. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 3. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 4. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the lastday. 5. John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 6. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 7. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Amazing how everything points to the 7th.

Daniel, I'm asking you nicely to explain it. You seem unwilling to explain scripture to me....Im really happy to be wrong....I've got no issues with being wrong. However I don't accept statements, things need to be explained...lets be honest you not doing that.

I fail to see this because it's it's not explained . Explain Matthew 24 and 1 Cor 15 And that some how Christ failed to connect the dots with Daniel. I want it explained, I want to see it

And that nature is a mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- However your argument is based that this mystery is to continue, when it's stated that its not. 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets God declared this to Paul as one of his servants the prophets. No I'm bringing the Last trumpet into the tribulation since our topic is 1 Corinthians 15, so your question on "last days" has no bearing on 1 Corinthians 15 unless you're insinuating that 1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium Yes indeed the worest part is certainly going to come for the wicked - let us rejoice and all of heaven And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped Rev 11:18 and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” You will find a similar prophetic pattern in King Joash In the seventh year, the priest Jehoiada revealed Joash and anointed as king. (2 Kings 11:4–12). Queen Athaliah hearing such rushed to the temple, shouting, Treason! Treason! Then Athaliah was captured (gathered in other words) by the guards, removed from the temple, and put to death 2 Kings 11:13–16. and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” Same prophetic pattern Luke 19:11-27 Returning King, rightful King Rewards his servants The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets then orders for his enemies to be captured and put to death and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” Exactly what you will find in Rev 14 It is no coincidence, that at the 7th trumpet we find literal ressurection (two witnesses, as well as Christ voice) It is no coincidence we find the declaration time to the judging of dead, rewarding of servants mentioned at the 7th trumpet It is no coincidence we find it is time to destroy those who destroy the earth. All of this, at a trumpet, where God talks all of his mysterious - to be finished at this particular trumpet being the 7th trumpet, where all of these no coincidences are actually mentioned. Yet no pretribs, no prewraths have any of this, they don't even have a literal trumpet. That particular war you cited Rev 13, perhaps have a look at the 5th seal...those people certainly just didn't drop dead.

Two different trumpets doesn't fly.... Post tribs base there Ressurection on in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed This is the last trumpet that is of concern. Your job is to now explain how this 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Is not the last trumpet? That this 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Was a failure bu Christ to connect Daniel 7 to resurrection and trumpet, and how Paul and John both failed to connect this as well?

How is the last trumpet for Israel, when the last trumpet was referred to the church? in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed After all since pretrib logic wishes to categories things like the Olivet discourse is for Israel and not the Church

Whixh all fits at the 7th trumpet and than Daniel 7 also goes on to state: Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Daniel 7:26 "But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end." The judgment is taken away from the Antichrist by Christ, and by His saints - Rev 20:4 He I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge . Which is what the entire point of the 7 bowls of wrath are all about The antichrist has been judged, and found guilty. God will remove the Antichrist’s rule and destroy him and his empire in hell. Where does it state that in the bible? Are we to honestly believe that Paul's last trumpet 1 Corinthians 15:52 who by the way was schooled in the Jewish Torah, it was his profession, who was an export, in fact on the same level as Daniel had no concept of the Gods ordained symbolism of Jewish feasts association with trumpets being 7 series trumpets and not anointed by God as a prophet associated to the 7 trumpets of Revelation? But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” you have got to come up with some water tight evidence that Paul was not a prophet that God associated with in Rev 10 and we have two completely different last trumpets, one of those last trumpets being in your case completely missing from the picture all together....

No, there will eventually be peace but not in the beginning. It will take time for His kingdom to spread and His influence to affect every city in every nation. Isaiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace In other words Christ government and peace will increase until it penetrates every institution. Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people Ps 2:9; 72:9-11 2:9 You will break them with an iron scepter; you will smash them like a potter’s jar!’” 72:9 Before him the coastlands will bow down,and his enemies will lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts;the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.11 All kings will bow down to him;all nations will serve him. Isaiah 11:4 11:4 He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and order the wicked to be executed. Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father All this ties up with Christ very words in Luke 19:11-27 of the returning king, rewarding his servants and shattering his enemies in order to usher peace, it is a process to yield humanity to its knees to worship Christ. I don't see any other series of 7 trumpets in Revelation, that John and Paul would of refered to? Rev 11 makes no mention of a midst/ middle of the tribulation Rev 11:18 is a fulfilment of proclamations. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets Citing John 1:29 won't really strengthen your position: who takes away the sin of the world. "Takes away" is a Present Participle; Christ from that time of John's utterance all the way through to Christ crucifixion, Christ being in action of taking away the sins of the world. In other words taking away the sins of the world was a process that eventually climaxed at the crucifixion

Yes was for you...domtt stress i understand youre not pretrib....Sharing notes.

There's a pre trib inconsistency here Kiwichristia How is that the olivet discourse is for Israel: Matthew 24 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him And then claim luke 12:39 is the church? 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready,because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him It's the same discourse, it's the same message of the olivet discourse Luke 12 is Matthew 24

100 % in scriptural agreement with you. The dangers of what's posted in the OP; no longer is the Resurrection the blessed hope but the the doctrine of immortal souls... 4. Beware of Anyone Who Tries to Diminish Your Hope of Heaven or tries to Diminish the Horror of Hell. It now robs scripture of the Resurrection 1. Jesus (a) John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This is a Resurrection verse (b) John 5:24 -Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This is a Resurrection verse (c) John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. This is a Resurrection verse (d) John 10: 27-29 -My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. This is a Resurrection verse 2. Paul Taught the Assurance of Salvation/Heaven (a) Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (b) Rom. 8: 38-39 -For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (c) Hebrews 10: 21-23 - And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;). The assurance of Paul is the Resurrection 2. They also use I Thess. 4: 13 to support that doctrine. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” This is a Resurrection verse, the Christian doctrine lies in the HOPE of our Resurrection, no one else has this HOPE but those who believe in Christ.

Yes "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years Daniel 7:18 ► New International Version But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.' Rev 11:18 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” that's the beginning of the Christ 1000 year reign

Assurance of salvation is assurance of Heaven because Heaven is promised to those who are saved. So while those verses don't mention Heaven, they promise salvation and by extension, promise Heaven ( is now reinterpretation)