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KiwiChristian

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About KiwiChristian

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  • Birthday 01/22/1968

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  1. KiwiChristian

    Prayers needed

    Pills and cutting are NOT the way to handle being upset. Problems with local church and pastor. Similar to issues to a previous church. 3 pastors, similar problems. Common denominator? Me.
  2. KiwiChristian

    JW vs the Bible

    The source is whatever quote from whatever Biblical source that agrees with them. A classic pick-n-choose religion.
  3. KiwiChristian

    JW vs the Bible

    And the Bible lied when it says that Jesus lives FOREVER to make intercession for us. Another question i like giving them is "who raised Jesus". They say "God" or "Jehovah". I say "Amen, i believe that, too. Can you please read Acts 10:40." This will prove that God the father raised Jesus. Get them to agree with what THE TEXT SAYS. "Now, read John 2:19, please" "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". Then i ask "Oh, so Jesus rose Himself up?". They will say "no". Then ask "Oh, so Jesus lied?" Again, they will say "no". By now, they will be frantically looking through their book of pre-programmed responses. Try to get them away from that. "No, lets just read the text as it is written" Then firmly try to get them to go back to the Bible and turn to Romans 8:11 which states the Holy Spirit raised Jesus. Same questions as for John 2:19. "So, we have the Bible saying that God the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all raised Jesus?" They will probably at this point remember they have another appointment elsewhere. ( hence always good to ask them AT THE START how long they have until their next appointment ) The local JW's here took a month to "resolve" John 2:19. They are told that "body" means the church. Yet the word i believe means a physical person. plus, the context CLEARLY shows that Jesus was referring to His physical body. I find debating scripture with them is a waste of time. Instead, attack the foundation of their belief structure, the watchtower itself. Remember, JW's are taught that you CAN lie to someone if that person does not DESERVE to have the truth. This is in their "guide to Bible understanding" i believe. Other quotes you may find interesting to confront them with: In subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God has already begun...And that the "battle of the great day of God almighty [revelation 16:14], which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. [The 1915 edition of this book changed "A.D. 1914" to "A.D. 1915."] *from the book "The Time is at Hand; 1889 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101). "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106). "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22) "Fight against independent thinking." ( Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 ) The new book titled Children will prove useful ‘in the remaining months before Armageddon’ (Watchtower, 15 September 1941, p 288) ‘The end of Nazi Fascist hierarchy will come and will mark the end forever of demon rule.’ (Watchtower, 15 December 1941, p 377) Will the men of Sodom be resurrected? Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8 No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338 Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479 No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31 Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179 No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179 Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985 No...Revelation book, page 273. These changes are more like flashing lights, on and off again. How can they be trusted? "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). The book "The Finished Mystery" Armageddon was to begin "in the spring of 1918" There was to be "worldwide all-embracing anarchy" in the "fall of 1920." The 1917 edition asserts that Revelation 11:13 would be fulfilled "early in 1918" ["the earthquake"] and in the "fall of 1920" [the fire]. The 1926 edition is again altered. 1904- The stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912- culminating in the end of the "Times of the Gentiles," October 1914. *from the book "The New Creation" 1904 ‘Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.’ (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p3)
  4. KiwiChristian

    JW vs the Bible

    Then Jesus is NOT their high priest.
  5. KiwiChristian

    JW vs the Bible

    JW Belief is first, the Bibilcal position is in bold Christ is God's Son and is inferior to him. Christ is God. He took on the form of man to come to earth. John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16 Christ died on a stake, not a cross. Christ died on a cross. John 20:25, Matthew 27:37, 27 Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans. Christ life was paid as a ransom for sinners Matthew 9:13, 1 Timothy 1:15 Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. God will create new heavens and earth and new physical laws. God's people will be removed from earth. Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 The human soul ceases to exist at death The spirit of man goes to be with God *Ecclesiastes 3:21, Ecclesiastes 12:7 Hell is mankind's common grave. Before Christ, all went to Hades, after Christ only non-believers *Psalms 9:17, Matthew 23:33 The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God. All people who confess Christ as Lord and Savior are born again *John 3:3, John 3:3-7 Christians must give public testimony to Scriptural truth. Christians must give public testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ Romans 1:16, Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 1:17 The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9 Man does not have a spirit. Man has a spirit *Ecclesiastes 3:21 We are to worship Jehovah only. We are to worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:13 Jesus second coming occurred invisibly in 1914 and His kingdom was established in heaven. Jesus will return physically to earth and all alive will see Him as His kingdom is established on earth Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7 The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9 Christ is Michael the Archangel. Christ is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:13 Christ was first of God's creations. Christ is co-eternal with God, and as such was not created Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, Hebrews 13:8
  6. KiwiChristian

    Philippines Pastors Face Death for Ministry to Muslims

    religion of peace and tolerance? no compulsion in religion?
  7. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    Here is my wordpad i use with JW's. In 1889, the WT said " we present PROOFS that the setting up of the kingdom of God has already begun...and that 'the battle of the great day of God almighty' (Revelation16:14),which will end in AD1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.". So, the WT presented "proofs". These "proofs" were wrong, so what credibility do they have to "proclaim" anything? "They shall know that a Prophet was among them." "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). Failed/Changed prophecies. The Millennium began in 1873. (Thy Kingdom Come, page 305),The Millennium began in 1874. (Finished Mystery, page 386),The resurrection would occur in 1878 (They Kingdom Come, page 234),Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old would return in 1925. (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89),The Book of Ruth is "not prophetical". (Watchtower Reprints IV, p.3110, 12/7/02),The Book of Ruth "is prophetic". (Preservation", p. 169, 175, 176.) 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262). FALSE PROPHESY! Will the men of Sodom be resurrected? Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8 No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338 Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479 No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31 Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179 No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179 Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985 No...Revelation book, page 273. These changes are more like flashing lights, on and off again. How can they be trusted? 6,000 years from Adam ended in A.D. 1872. (Daily Heavenly Manna, inside cover page),6,000 years of human history ended in 1873.(The Time is at Hand, p.33),6,000 years of human history ended in 1972.(The Truth Shall Make You Free, p.152, 1943 edition),6,000 years of human history ended in 1975. (Awake!, October 8th, 1968, page 15). Would a true prophet of God make false prophecies about World War II? ‘The Nazis will destroy the British.’ (Fifth Column, p 15) The new book titled Children will prove useful ‘in the remaining months before Armageddon’ (Watchtower, 15 September 1941, p 288) ‘The end of Nazi Fascist hierarchy will come and will mark the end forever of demon rule.’ (Watchtower, 15 December 1941, p 377) Christ returned in 1914. (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, p.87). Since the Watchtower society of Jehovah’s witnesses has so many failed prophecies, we know they are not prophesying by God’s direction, and through His Holy Spirit, or by the angels. If Jehovah the Father is God (that's one) and now the Son is called God, that’s two isn’t it? If God says there is only one God how can there be two, even if one is called mighty and the other almighty? According to the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit identifies itself as an individual entity. Acts 13:2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate ME Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." The Holy Spirit is fully God and has personality as He can be blasphemed. Acts 5:3,4 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto GOD." The Holy Spirit has the three attributes of personality, those being: mind, emotions and will. An ‘active force’ does not have personal attributes. The watchttower's claim of the Holy Spirit being an active force is disproven if the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has mind, emotions & will. Did Jesus really say He was God? That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.” Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). "Have No Dealings With Apostates, ... For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: `It won't affect me; I'm too strong in the truth. And besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.' In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt." (Watchtower, March 15, 1986 p12) 1983 "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22) 1983 "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 ) "All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave." (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8.) "Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 587.) Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature) Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." The Watchtower Made FALSE Prophecies The Watchtower Organisation Claims To Be Prophets Founder Charles Taze Russell, a Mason sold his Men's Furnishing Store and set out to condemn the translators of the Bible and ministers for what they taught. He taught that the church belongs to the ecclesiastical wing of Satan's organization. He condemns the teaching of the church of all ages--only the JW's supposedly know the truth. (But Christ said that he would build his church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it). They can be quite "friendly" and hold regular "Bible" studies and meetings which probably appeals to many. Again, to test whether they can be called a "Christian" organisation, we must compare their teachings and beliefs with the Word Of God. "Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226 The book "The Finished Mystery" Armageddon was to begin "in the spring of 1918" There was to be "worldwide all-embracing anarchy" in the "fall of 1920." The 1917 edition asserts that Revelation 11:13 would be fulfilled "early in 1918" ["the earthquake"] and in the "fall of 1920" [the fire]. The 1926 edition is again altered. July 15th 1894- We see no reason for changing the futures- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. 1904- The stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912- culminating in the end of the "Times of the Gentiles," October 1914. *from the book "The New Creation" 1904 May 1st, 1914- There is absolutely no ground for bible students to question that the consummation of this gospel age is now even at the door...The great crisis...that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth is very near. *Watchtower reprints 1889- In subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God has already begun...And that the "battle of the great day of God almighty [revelation 16:14], which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. [The 1915 edition of this book changed "A.D. 1914" to "A.D. 1915."] *from the book "The Time is at Hand; 1889 1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621). 1899 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101). 1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii). 1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89). 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262). 1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106). 1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3). 1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262). 1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232). 1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338). 1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288). 1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968). 1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494). 6,000 years from Adam ended in A.D. 1872. (Daily Heavenly Manna, inside cover page),6,000 years of human history ended in 1873.(The Time is at Hand, p.33),6,000 years of human history ended in 1972.(The Truth Shall Make You Free, p.152, 1943 edition),6,000 years of human history ended in 1975. (Awake!, October 8th, 1968, page 15). "They shall know that a Prophet was among them." "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). Since the Watchtower society of Jehovah’s witnesses has so many failed prophecies, we know they are not prophesying by God’s direction, or through the Holy Spirit, or by the angels. "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them." Awake! 1968 Oct 8 p.23. It is ironic that the Society condemns other religions in such manner when it has spent decade's actively predicting wrong 'end of the world' dates that did not occur, such as 1914 being the year for Armageddon and 1925 being the start of the earthly resurrection, or more recently that the battle of Jehovah would be within the twentieth century. In 1972, the Watchtower described itself as "the modern-day "prophet"". "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. ... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them' "commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah … commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah…" The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah" - How? pp.58,62 "… commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name…" Watchtower 1972 Mar 15 p.189 "The Watchtower is a magazine without equal in the earth …. This is not giving any credit to the magazine's publishers, but is due to the great Author of the Bible with it truths and prophecies, and who now interprets its prophecies." Watchtower 1943 Apr 15 p.127 "The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will. Those who oppose The Watchtower are not capable of discerning the truth that God is giving to the children of his organization, and this is the very strongest proof that such opposers are not of God's organization." Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327 Jehovah Witnesses NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opinions. The FORWARD of the New World Translation in 1961 edition, on page 5 states, "It is a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech ... The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." Have their translators been responsible? Are they true to the original languages? The men that comprised the Translation Committee were not even Greek scholars qualified to translate the Bible. These men were: N.H. Knorr, F. W. Franz the 4th President, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel (write to Personal Freedom Outreach, P.O. Box 26062, St. Louis, Missouri 63136 for paper documentation). All met together in these translation sessions. The translation committee requested that the names of the translators remain secret even after their deaths (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 258). Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954). In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.) The following is from the trial transcript: - (Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that? (A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted. Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92) (Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament? ( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question... Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid) (Q): Why the secrecy? (A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto. Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor. The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed. According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983). Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar. As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985), The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today. The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God. What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT: Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature) Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated." "Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation) Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'" "I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137) the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin) Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." Google Bruce Metzer, Marcus Borg, N.T. Wright, Elaine Pagels, Dominic Crossan-they all believe the NWT is a travesty. It is very bad. These people studied Koine Greek and the social/political world for decades. STUMPER QUESTIONS FOR JW's If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards? ("They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah's Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.) If the Watchtower organization rejects others calling them "inspired" yet the Watchtower organization does call themselves "God's Spirit-directed Prophet" what is the difference? Is there such a thing as an "uninspired prophet"? Since the Organization has received "new light" regarding the 1914 generation, and completely changed their view on this, does this mean that all the former Jehovah's witnesses who were disfellowshipped years ago for the same view the organization is now teaching will automatically be accepted into fellowship again? Were these Ex-Jw's in fact disfellowshipped for truth and knew things that the governing body did not? How do you prove from the Bible that 1935 was the year for the selection to heaven stopped due to being filled? What is the difference between a Catholic appealing to "what the organization tells him" about December 25 being the date of Jesus' birthday and a Jw' appealing to "what the organization tells him" about the date 1935? Is it not hypocritical when you chide the "poor deluded Catholic" that his faith cannot find a Bible passage to support it, when the same goes for you and 1935? If the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the name of God, "YHWH" when they copied the New Testament, as only the Watchtower organization claims, then how can we have any confidence in any of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the Watchtower organization as unreliable? In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read? The NWT translates the Greek word "kyrios" as "Jehovah" more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, 1Thess 5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word "Jehovah" translated when it DOES NOT appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as "Jehovah" in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 (see Gr-Engl Interlinear)? If the NWT is correct in saying that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then why would God command the angels to worship a fellow created angel (in Hebrews 1:6)? Who raised Jesus? The Father (Acts10:40)The Son (John2:19)The Holy Spirit(Romans8:11) The Triune God.
  8. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    The modern translations are based on the corrupted alexandrian text and the anti-Christian wescot and hort works
  9. KiwiChristian

    Did I just recieve the gift of tongues?

    27 REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NEITHER SEEK NOR DESIRE TONGUES. The Charismatic Movement contends that: i) The New Testament gift of tongues should be sought and spoken by ALL Christians today. They seek to revive all gifts, but none are given so great importance as tongues. ii) The tongues gift is the true Biblical sign of the "Baptism in the Spirit." iii) Those receiving tongues receive a second blessing after salvation, enabling them to live more sanctified, powerful and joyful witnessing lives. iv) The tongues movement is claimed to be the "latter rain" revival foretold in Joel 2:23. We must test all religious movements on the basis of: a) Their doctrines. 2 Timothy 4:2,3 b) Their fruits. Matthew 7:15,16 c) Their spirits or powers behind a movement. “Test the spirits.” 1 John 4:1-4.. Note the following reasons why tongues are not needed for Christians today: 1. Tongues were classed as one of the lowest gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12:28 tongues are mentioned last in a list of 8 gifts. These are ranked in order of importance because we have "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 2. God gives the gifts "according to his own will," not according to our seeking. "Gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will." Hebrews 2:4. 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 lists 9 gifts, the last being tongues and interpretation of tongues: "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gift of healing by the same spirit,…. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." Note: Tongues were spoken on 3 occasions in Acts (2:4; 10:46; 19:6), but on none of these occasions are the recipients seeking, waiting or expecting to speak in tongues. At Pentecost, only the Apostles (12) spoke in tongues, but all who were saved (3000) received the Holy Spirit (2:38,39). a) "Covet earnestly the best gifts”(12:31); tongues are not the best gifts, but one of the least gifts.14:1 b) Spiritual gifts could be desired (14:1) but not claimed in faith as a birthright. There is no command to seek them. 3. Most modern tongues are a learned behaviour. People are told to blank out their mind and say whatever comes out; then go home and practice it. This is foreign to the New Testament. 4. Tongues speakers may be deceived. Because a person speaks unintelligible sounds, it is not proof that he has the N.T. gift of tongues. Few Charismatics are prepared to examine tongues. We must “prove all things” (1 Thess. 5:21). How do you prove that tongues are genuine languages? In 1 Corinthians 14:27-29, Paul discusses wrong tongues which are not interpreted in the church, and wrong prophecy, thus teaching that others need to judge a prophecy. Tongues have been spoken by heathen religions, Mormons, etc.. 5. Tongues were a sign of God's wrath, displeasure and judgment on unbelieving Israel, never a sign of His blessing and approval on Christians. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe,but to them that believe not"1 Cor.14:22 a) Acts 10:44-47; 11:16-18. Tongues used by Cornelius' household was a sign to unbelieving Peter and unbelieving Jewish Christians, that Gentiles were to be received into the family of God. In Acts 11:15 the phrase "as on us at the beginning" means that tongues had not been spoken since Pentecost which was 10 years earlier. b) "Forbid not to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:39) was always on the understanding that tongues was a valid sign to warn Jewish unbelievers, until judgment came in 70AD. You don’t warn people after judgment has come. c) In meetings where there were no unbelieving Jews, all teaching, praying etc. was to be in the language of those present (1 Corinthians 14:23-28). 1 Corinthians 14:19 states that in the church, 5 words understood are better than 10,000 words in tongues that are not understood. d) Israel wanted signs, but the church must live by faith. “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.” (Matthew 12:39). e) The Corinthians were using tongues as a mark of spirituality, for personal gratification, and to gain attention. Paul rebukes this childish, selfish practice. 6. Tongues is one of several temporary gifts. i) Apostles. "are built upon the foundation of the apostles ii) Prophets, …and prophets." Ephesians 2:20. Neither they nor the Lord appointed any successors to their office. "12 apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14). There are no Apostles or prophets alive today. iii) Knowledge. This was intuitive, revealed knowledge of doctrine before the Bible was completed. A completed, perfect Bible ended this gift along with prophecy in 96AD.1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Today we must study to gain Bible knowledge. 2 Timothy 2:15. (1 Corinthians 14:21,22. iv) Tongues. With the setting aside of Israel in 70 AD, tongues and other sign gifts ceased. v) Interpretation of tongues - ceased in 70 AD when tongues ceased. iv) Gifts of healing. Paul lost this gift, as he could not heal Epaphroditus in 64AD (Phil. 2:26,27), Timothy's stomach in 65AD (1 Timothy 5:23) nor Trophimus in 66AD (2 Timothy 4:20). In Acts 5:12-16, Peter healed every one in 33 AD. vii) Gift of miracles -no one can work miracles today at their will as could the first century apostles. viii) Discerning of spirits - no one today has this gift because discernment comes through Bible knowledge of strong meat, full age Christians who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). No one today would claim infallible judgment always in every issue of life, which is what this gift demands (1 Corinthians 12:10). 7. Historically, tongues ceased after 63-70 AD. Tongues were withdrawn when Israel deliberately rejected the apostles testimony of Christ, as seen in Acts 28:22-28 where Paul pronounces God's judgment on Israel (63AD). Judgment fell in 70AD. In all New Testament epistles written after this pronouncement in 63AD (Romans; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 & 2 Timothy; Titus; Philemon; Hebrews; 1&2 Peter; John; 1,2 & 3 John; Jude and Revelation) there is no mention of tongues. Why? Because with the setting aside of Israel, and the confirming of the word of God, sign gifts were no longer necessary. These facts of the gospel and the apostles message of the Bible having been established, confirmed, and authenticated for all time, it is now an act of unbelief to seek for signs today. Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen, Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr etc. never mentioned tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn. Chrysostom says: "tongues....used to occur, but now no longer take place." 8. Modern tongues and Charismatic Movement is not another Pentecost or "latter rain" of Joel 2:23. Joel's prophecy discusses Israel's restoration to their land in the Millennium. When this happens, and not before, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. What happened at Pentecost was only an illustration, a small sample of what will happen in the Millennium. At Pentecost, there were no signs in the sun, moon etc, thus indicating that Joel's prophecy is to be fulfilled in the future Millennium. Joel said nothing about tongues being a sign of renewal. This age will end in apostasy and departure from the Faith, not in Joel's revival. KEY: “Afterward” in Joel 2:28 means that the Spirit will be poured on all flesh after Christ’s second coming, and not before. 9. Tongues is not a sign of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. "For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body." 1 Corinthians 12:13. i) All believers have the Holy Spirit Baptism. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9. ii) All believers have the Holy Spirit, but few believers spoke in tongues. If we have received Jesus Christ as Saviour, we also have the Holy Spirit in us, because we cannot separate members of the Godhead. 10. Tongues were never intended to edify the speaker himself or the church. i) "He that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort," 1 Corinthians 14:3. "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." 1 Corinthians 14:31. The edification, exhortation, learning and comfort of the local church was always the responsibility of the one who prophesied (gave instruction in an understandable language). ii) "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself," (1 Corinthians 14:4) does not teach that personal holiness is found in tongues speaking. On the contrary it describes the Corinthians selfishness who used tongues for personal pleasure and public display. Tongues speaking in a church does not instruct, edify, warn or strengthen believers. Holiness through tongues will always be shallow because it is based on feelings, not on Biblical edification. iii) Of all the tongues spoken today, new prophesies, new revelations and visions, not one iota of truth have been added to the inspired scriptures. 11. Tongues were never intended for prayer, praise or worship of God. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2. God does not need to be spoken to in a foreign language. This verse teaches that the Corinthians were using the gift of tongues out of place. Tongues were meant to be spoken to men, that is to JEWS. A person praying or singing in tongues simply spoke "mysteries" in his own spirit. He received no real benefit, the hearers were not helped, and God was not glorified. Prayer and praise must be with understanding in the common language. "What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also.....Else.....how shall.....the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16. This is not two different kinds of prayer, but two conditions of all prayer, praying in the leading of the Holy Spirit and with an understanding mind. If understanding is not present, hearers cannot say "Amen" to your prayer. 12. Tongues is not a sign of salvation. Assurance of salvation comes from faith in God’s Bible promises, not from any feelings of tongues. 13. Tongues is not a condition of keeping us saved. Pentecostalism, as a movement, does not believe in the eternal security of the believer who trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Many Charismatics think that their future preservation depends on continuing in the Charismatic experience. Many fear of grieving the Spirit and losing the power, and hence losing salvation. Some Charismatics do believe in the security of a believer in Christ. 14. Tongues are not a means of attaining holiness. The nine fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22,23 have no relation to tongues. The Corinthians came behind in no gift (I Corinthians 1:7), yet Paul called them carnal and babes (1 Corinthians 3:1). True spirituality is not determined by one's experience, gift or feelings, but by inner godly character (e.g. 1 Peter 3:4, "a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price", for ladies.) It is right to be happy, joyful and to praise the Lord, but valuable character is better seen in times of testing, persecution, misunderstanding and suffering. 15. All spiritual gifts should exalt Christ, not the Holy Spirit. Many Charismatics exalt the Holy Spirit above Christ. The Holy Spirit seeks to exalt Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Hence the mark of a Spirit filled believer is that in life and speech, he glorifies Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:3). “Christ shall be magnified in my body." Philippians 1:20; 3:8. All gifts are given so that we may grow to the "fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:13. Charismatics use the earthly, human title "Jesus", as did demons. No disciple ever addressed the Lord as "Jesus", but as Lord, Christ or Master, or Lord Jesus Christ. Let us give Christ His full honour as the Lord Jesus Christ. 16. All gifts were given to produce church unity and harmony. All gifts were given that there be no schism in the body (1 Corinthians 12:25). Truth unites, error divides. The continual search for tongues, healing, prophecy, gifts etc., has split many churches, broken friendships and divided homes. The Charismatic Movement claims a new kind of unity not based on Bible doctrine, but on having the tongues experience. One can be a "spirit-filled" tongues speaker and believe almost anything. Many Christians who a few years ago opposed the heretical World Council of Churches, now cheerfully unite with Catholic Charismatic renewal, hence compromising essential Bible truths. 17. Tongues and all spiritual gifts were to promote order and peace. "God is not the author of confusion but of peace." 1 Corinthians 14:33. "Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Corinthians 14:40. Church services should have one person speaking or praying at a time. In today's Charismatic meetings, there is much unrestrained noise, singing, clapping, shouting, tongues and dancing. 18. No Christian should surrender control of his mind and will. Paul insisted that tongues and prophecy speakers should retain control of their mind and understanding: "If there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:28. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." 1 Corinthians 14:32. Famous Charismatic leader, Oral Roberts, instructs tongues speakers as follows: "We have to by-pass our mind and make it inactive for the moment. The mind slips into the background when we are praying in tongues and remains in a state of neutrality." [“Baptism With The Holy Spirit,” 1966, p. 42.] New Age occult seminars similarly tell people to blank out their minds to yield control to some higher force, which in reality is to demons. The New Testament never asks us to lay aside our sound mind, our self-control, our judgment or our reason, but to exercise these faculties in accordance with God's Word. Charismatics are told to overcome their inhibitions by by-passing their minds. People are brainwashed in cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and the Charismatic Movement by surrendering their minds and wills to the group or leader. The danger for a believer who submits his mind without resistance to outside influences to receive tongues, is: a) He opens himself up to psychic and demonic deception and control. b) He can place himself beyond the protection of the Holy Spirit, by asking for things contrary to God's will. 19. The last days will be characterised by deception, signs, lying wonders and more demon activity Satan has always opposed believers and God's work. Satan opposes us as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). The Corinthian believers were open to Satanic deception of another Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel (11:4) as Satan’s ministers come as ministers of righteousness (11:15). "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24). In Old Testament times God permitted false prophets to work miracles in order to test His people. Two tests of false prophets are: a) If he performs signs to turn you away from the Lord. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). b) If he speaks in the name of the Lord, but the prophecy does not come to pass. (Deut.18:20-22). Isaiah 8:19 describes familiar spirits that "peep and mutter", like tongues. Israel rejected the Word of God for more sensational dealings with the spirit world. Many see the Charismatic Movement as a Satanic deception permitted by God to test Christendom, and to pave the way for the Antichrist and the one world united Babylon religion of the last days. "Even him (Antichrist) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness....." 2 Thessalonians 2: 9,10. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22,23). 20. Charismatics confuse Baptism in the Spirit (a once only experience at salvation -1 Cor. 12:13) with the filling of the Spirit (a continual daily experience for service obtained by confessing sin, prayer, and yielding to Christ. (Ephesians 5:18). 21. Doctrinal compromise. Ministers who deny fundamental Bible truths such as the virgin birth, verbal inspiration, creation, etc. are often warmly welcomed and accepted if they claim a Charismatic experience. Charismatics warmly accept Roman Catholic priests and people who continue to seek salvation through the sacraments, who still pray to Mary, and still celebrate the mass. Doctrinal errors are ignored to keep Charismatic unity. 22. Most Charismatics are not diligent students of Scripture. One can remain comfortable in his false beliefs as long as he refuses to face Biblical evidence to the contrary. One Australian Charismatic pastor could not find the book of Daniel in his Bible. He had to look up the table of contents. He thought Daniel was near Exodus. 23. Emphasis on Experience. Personal experience is a great enemy of truth. When confronted with a mass of Biblical evidence, most Charismatics typically reply: "I know I am right. I have experienced tongues or healing myself. I have seen a prophet make correct predictions. I have seen people healed. The Bible teachings must have another explanation." Tongues is mostly a learned behaviour. If you blank out your mind, anyone can say gibberish. Most healings are temporary and are achieved by hypnotherapy. What about the false predictions? These make him a false prophet. Studies show that most Charismatic healings revert back to the illness. Hypnotise a person, tell them they feel better, and they will feel better, for a time, but later they revert back to the illness. 24. New Revelations. Charismatics continually claim to receive extra-Biblical revelations from God by tongues, prophecy, visions and dreams. Cults and Catholicism also claim revelations outside the Bible. 25. Damage to the local church. Many Charismatics use a local church as a base for propaganda purposes to invite people to a home Bible study and prayer group governed by self-appointed spiritual leaders who instruct in tongues and try to heal people. A local church seems too confined, compared with many people from many churches coming together for a Charismatic rally. 26. Laxity and moral danger. Some Charismatics think that they have "arrived" spiritually. They often lack motivation to press on further. The goal has been attained. Time for relaxation has come. Such carelessness explains much worldliness, sin and a rock music party atmosphere among Charismatics. Some receive "revelations" to divorce their spouse and remarry another person. Truth and reason then take a back seat. 27. Move back to Rome. The Charismatic Movement reversed the decline of the Ecumenical Movement from 1960. It is not a threat to Rome. Both emphasise emotionalism, miracles, healing, and the lack of final Bible authority. Charismaticism is not true Protestantism because it is not solely based on the Bible. Oh, it was A spirit. No doubt about that. So, were you able to interpret or was it gibberish?
  10. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    Ohh, they HATE the Bible!
  11. KiwiChristian

    Hell

    HELL. 1. GEHENNA 1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15). Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire). Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna). Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna). Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”(gehenna). Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna). Matthew 23:15 “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna) than yourselves.” Matthew 23:33 “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna). Mark 9:43 “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:47 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of fire). Luke 12:5 “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna). James 3:6 “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna). 2. HADES 86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times. Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead. Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades). Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments 931 (punishment)” v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different. Acts 2:27 “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).” Acts 2:31 “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).” Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven. Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment. Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.” Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved. Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.” Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment of unbelievers and of demons. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Matthew 13:42, 50 “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.” Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47 “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.” Isaiah 66:24 “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.” Mark9:44,46,48. Isaiah 33:14 “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?” Matthew 18:8 “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.” Matthew 25:41 “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Jude 7 “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing). Revelation 19:20 “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image. These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” Revelation 20:10 “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for the ages of the ages). Revelation 20:14,15 and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest (respite) day nor night...”  3. SHEOL 7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol. Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.”Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”  4. TARTARUS 5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment. 2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible. “If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
  12. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    Yes, when they realise you know the Bible, they remember they have another appointment and blacklist you. best to attack the foundation. The watchtower. The false prophecies, the lies, the coverups, etc.
  13. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    Its not so much "debating" as much as "presenting truths"
  14. KiwiChristian

    Did I just recieve the gift of tongues?

    Of course. it is a KNOWN language. It will be Swahili, AMHARIC, YORUBA, OROMO, HAUSA, etc. gibber gabber is NOT a KNOWN language. "in the spirit he speaks mysteries." Have you heard the phrase "in the spirit of friendship", "in the spirit of love", etc?
  15. KiwiChristian

    Any backup out there?

    Hi guys. i am feeling really lonely in a mostly-jw and non-trinitarian forumn. Could use some help and backup! I am Jesus Defender there. https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/55859-the-trinity-and-it’s-false-theology/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-91873
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