Paradox

The moral law is based on the functions necessary for life. These are physical functions, without them there is no life. The most obvious "thou shalt not kill." Because these laws are paramount, God put them in our minds in the beginning. They were instinctive to us. Then we sinned and lost our sensibilities and capabilities to be righteous. Which can be restored, by faith alone in the Creator Jesus Christ, as you all know. It is interesting that the universe, and all the physical laws that govern it, are based on moral law - which spell out FAIRNESS to all. Things like balance, harmony, rest, variety, predictability, generosity, etc these are moral. Unfortunately, our world has seen many paths of connectivity to life broken down, and so all of nature "travails and awaits liberation."

Thanks, upon reflection, I am impressed by the manners of all, and feel I could have been more tactful.

The way that you all communicate to each other with kindness and inclusiveness, despite the different temperaments, is a powerful witness for the truth.

Read the paragraph before that statement. Doctrinal differences is the issue. England, like Germany were instrumental in publishing the Bible and bringing about freedom. What have protestant countries have done since? What you expect Satan to give up on politics because he lost his best beast? French revolution, another one of his favorites. I'm done with this topic.

Salt of the earth, you are Salty, Actually, I like all the above answers. The first ref to angels in Rev is the seven stars in the hand of Christ, messages to the churches. The second Angel calls for worship of the Creator. Because there is a challenge to God's authority as Creator by the anti Christ. God has a seal, the beast has a mark. The mark is contrasted by what the saints do. Rev 14:12, 12:17 Note the warning is not about a time of trouble for the saints, which it will be, but to those who get the mark - watch out wicked. They will get God's wrath without holding back. But also note the warning against a Satanic show or miracles in 13:14. Which will be used to impress people that 'God is punishing the world for disobeying the mark.' But if we know what the mark is, we have nothing to fear, for God will intervene when it seems the beast has the victory. II Thess 2:8.

It's quite a conflict. Do you wonder why? If there are versions which are not adulterated, that would pose a serious threat to Satan, because they would expose his plans. Unlike a myriad of interpreted books, which pose no threat at all. Some people are confused about original versions, because there are different origins, some false, some true. How can we tell which ones are true? The main doctrine is that Christ is God made flesh or man. This is the main theme undermined in modern versions. The other themes attacked are, the Divine power of Christ, the virgin birth, the prophecies concerning Christ, prophecies exposing specific kingdoms and the anti Christ, the details of creation, the power of the Word in nature, and the plan of salvation as outlined in the sanctuary service, the application of the blood of Christ (- omitted many times) the mystery of godliness is attacked, the nature of the return of Christ, end time events, and the deceptions of Satan in regards to the Government of God. King James made the 'big mistake' of breaking off the power of the Papacy and ignoring its false Bible based on the Vulgate. It has taken the blood of many innocent people to bring us freedom from religious persecution and tyranny. But now these reformers are worth nothing - along with their Textus receptus! Modern versions based on false original versions support and promote Satanic doctrines and lies, that's why it is very important what we place under our noses.

I did not mean to offend anyone, because what you are all saying is interesting, but I have the concentration span of a gnat. I just think that important issues can be summarized down to their essence, which speeds up the process of arriving at truth. It's like going on a long hike, you take the minimum weight in your pack. I don't want people to be too sensitive either.

I like the connection of the candle sticks with churches, never seen that before as applying to the two witnesses. I will look into it.

Willamina, has my response to this topic, but she is much nicer about it. I studied the KJV from an ulterior purpose, you might say, looking for specific answers on topics to do with ancient science, which are conveniently omitted from these other so called 'bibles' published or rather "knocked together" after the year 1930. Because these boards of endowed paling 'scholars' had absolutely no idea of what the Bible was talking about, they supplanted valuable and profound information which had been preserved for thousands of years. The translator of the one Bible was burned at the stake, but the business board and their scholars of the new bibles, went laughing all the way to the bank. Much later, after comparing modern 'bibles' with the TR derivatives, I found that my salvation could well be in jeopardy if I was not reading the right stuff. Don't take this as an insult, because the Holy Spirit will use a newspaper to call us if He has to, but once we hear a warning we better take the safe route and investigate.

I think it would be easier to follow this thread if contributors would; a. Keep it short and to the point b. Quote texts, rather than writing the whole Bible out c. Just make a comment without quoting reams of previous material (**removed unnecessary comment** ) d. Avoid stating the obvious Try to make your posts interesting. ***removed last sentence****

God was not rebuking Job in the end, He was rebuking Job's cliche Christian 'friends' who philosophized, when really they did not have the guts to tell Job that they could not bear to be there with him, let alone what was happening, and the fact that they were unable to comfort him, just made them uneasy. It would have been easier and far better to be honest with him than to do great speeches of religious nonsense. Some of you already picked up on that. If you read God's speech to Job, it is easy to misjudge God and look at Him in exactly the same way that Job's 'friends' did. Like "God is rebuking you bla bla blah." As God was speaking with Job, He was in fact healing him through His speech, not just his body, but his mind. First bringing him onto his feet. Job could hardly lift a finger before God asked him to. He was so wasted. All the sayings of God are aimed at building up a fortress of resilience and confidence in Job's mind, to assist his patterns of thought and bring him comfort and rest - not in himself, but in God for eternal security, rather than temporary relief. Overwhelmed, Job confessed his own inadequacy, but relied on the greatness of God, with humble confidence. Note the last illustration of the fearless leviathan? All these attributes as illustrated in nature are in God, and God gave Himself to Job, in that conversation, and God said to Job - your friends are a couple of losers, let them turn around and find a better way - make them put up an offering. God did not have a go at Job for his self righteousness, Job was actually quite humble, but the words of God were to identify Himself with him, and not to create a contrast. And by the way, the whole experience was not an experiment. But that's another story.

Satellite pictures of earth show wind and water erosion, on a large scale, now dormant, and on a smaller scale for thousands of years after the deluge. You get the typical large valleys, and then the little streams marking the landscape. Have you heard that the Grand Canyon was formed by the creek at the base? Hmm. Hardly.

Shiloh wrote: "We have men empowered by God to perform signs and wonders and preach the Gospel. Is that so difficult to comprehend?" No not at all, in fact there are many references that are human, each with a meaning according to scripture as already pointed out by the members in other threads. I am pretty sure you have many other texts and scriptural concepts all tied in and connected with what you are saying, and although I don't quite see it your way, I can see what you are saying is sound. I find that the whole chapter is in symbols, even the two witnesses, but of course this does not mean that there are no realities associated with each symbol. All these symbols are real events and real things. What those things are depends on knowing some basic keys that unlock Revelation. Which I would like to introduce to you later in other related threads started by someone else. Why? because I feel it is better to relate to what others have discovered in keeping on the same level in discussion. And it would be a shame not to incorporate what you have accumulated over the years.

Its a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees." If you put your face in the dirt like paleontologists do you get a dirty face, but if they would stand back a little, they would see that 99.99% of all landscapes have sedimentary layers. Just look at the road cuttings on the way to fossil land.

Now you say there is symbolism in there - the candlesticks are symbolic of real men, but not the other way around. But now we have - real fire breathing men in sackcloth, that are capable of destroying the entire earth over and over with plagues? Are you sure the whole chapter is not symbolic?

Resurrected olive trees and candle sticks? Compare verse 5 and 6 with chapter 22:18 and 19. These show that it is God's wrath which brings the plagues according to His word, not the wrath of angels or elected men. Zechariah chapters 4 (and 5) confirms a short comment made earlier in this thread about the law and the prophets. These witnesses have those two characteristics - they have the spirit of prophecy Rev 11:3, Rev 19:10, and the law of God Rev 22:14, as in Zech Ch 5. The reference in Rev to Zechariah is not a coincidence. If we go by what the Bible infers, then we don't have to look for a pair of men, and argue what or who they might be.

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbols, not real beings or people, though they might as well have been that by the way they worked and were treated. Someone already mentioned the two olive trees. Zechariah 4:2-6. The means by which God has a witness in the earth, the old and new testaments ? or the "word of the Lord" "not by might or power, but by My Spirit" "thy word is a lamp unto my feet" ?