Last Daze

Yeah, I can't imagine that the man of sin would want a calendar demarcated by "the Word becoming flesh" (BC / AD) to persist. Given his arrogance, I can see where he could mandate one global calendar and start it at year 1, or some such'a thing. The image of the beast (a global collaboration which yields a code of conduct affirming the man of sin's rule and "deity") comes alive when he declares it to be law. Those who refuse to abide by it (worship it) are put to death.

Quite true. A prerequisite though is understanding the difference between tribulation and wrath and discerning the source and object of each in its context. Pre-trib relies on muddying those waters.

There is certainly merit in meeting together and regardless of one's experiences, it should not be completely given up on. Everyone has a spiritual gift to be used for the edification of the body of Christ. There are numerous circumstances to be considered in how each person invests their spiritual "talents" but Hebrews 10:24-25 is pretty clear. There are also times when it is beneficial to spend some time in Arabia. Galatians 1:15-17

Interesting. I'll have to dwell on that a while. Thanks.

Based on Rev 3:10 those who are tested are those who did not keep the word of His perseverance. As I pointed out earlier, keeping the word of His perseverance was mentioned twice as refusing to accept the mark or worship the image. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:9-10 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:11-12 Remember that He is only speaking to one of the seven churches. There will be believers who do not persevere and rationalize taking the mark. After a period of time when everyone has responded to the "worship or die" ultimatum, God's judgment begins. When the first four plague angels sound their trumpets, their plagues begin as only a fraction of what they will become. The reason for this is that God has judged the decision to align with the man of sin to be in error and He is calling on those who did to repent. Granted, there will come a time when "they repented not" but that is not until after the first four trumpets have called on people to repent. The last three trumpets are the three woes for those who repented not. The time of testing / temptation referred to in Rev 3:10 is for those who repented of aligning with the man of sin. They will have the sincerity of their repentance tested. Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame. Revelation 16:15 Jesus spoke these words pertaining to the time when the armies gather together at Armageddon. At this point the two witnesses are dead and consequently the effects of the plagues have subsided. People are rejoicing and giving each other presents. The man of sin appears victorious. Will those who repented remain steadfast to the end? That's the test to see who's blessed. For the ungodly, the hour of temptation serves the purpose of proving or manifesting what is in their heart. There's nothing there to "test".

First, this was said: Note the part that is in bold. He is saying that God is going to test the ungodly. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of that notion. It might have been the tinge of irony that threw you.

You missed the point. How many of those tests are for the wicked, for them to prove their wickedness?

Please tell me more about this "test or temptation for the ungodly". If they pass, are they confirmed as ungodly? For what purpose? God tests the believer's faithfulness and perseverance, not the sinner's sinfulness. That judgment was already made when Light entered the world. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. John 3:19 What's to test?

Yeah, it became more and more evident when I read the Gospels with that in mind. It seemed that Israel had neglected the spiritual aspect of things, something we should be careful not to do. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18 The unseen spiritual realm is actually "more real" than the seen natural realm since it's eternal. It's just much less understood.

Good to see you back posting again, Serving. That's certainly a possibility. Any thoughts on what, if anything, may have signified the end of 70th week? Taking the gospel to the Gentiles?

Actually, no, that's not what it says. There is no "either / or" in there anywhere. Why would you want it to say that? If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:9-10

That is the takeaway in a nutshell. The time of testing referred to in Revelation 3:10 comes after the great tribulation. It is the time of testing Jesus refers to here: “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.” Revelation 16:15 This is during the time that the armies gather together at Armageddon. It is to test those who did not keep the word of His perseverance during the great tribulation. The one who endures to the end will be saved.

A truth that is very relevant in determining who is who. The abyss is only used in the context of evil spirit beings, never humans. That's the rightly divided understanding. There is nothing scriptural to suggest otherwise.

I guess it depends on why they change their minds, doesn't it? When the Holy Spirit reveals through the word of God that what you've been led to believe is false are you going to continue to believe the falsehood for the sake of "being trusted" by others? How ludicrous! People who continue to grow in the knowledge of God can recognize their error when the Spirit reveals truth to them and make the adjustment. Those proud people who refuse the Spirit's instruction for the sake of maintaining some appearance of authority or whatever reason never grow beyond where they are. Changing one's mind is not the issue. Being able to incorporate the truth of the Bible as revealed by the Holy Spirit is the issue. I would much rather admit an error and change to the truth than continue in an error for the sake of saving face. Wouldn't you? This isn't a political race after all.

At least that's what it should be. God will reveal the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Exactly right. Too many are emotionally attached to their eschatological castle to consider renovation, even when the architect suggests it. And some times you just have to burn it to the ground and start over. I did, and I'm glad I did. I guess it all comes down to motive.

And there you have it. The main pillar of error supporting the pre-trib fallacy in one sentence. Tribulation, wrath, and judgment are NOT synonyms and you would do well to discern the difference instead of poisoning the well. While you're at it, figure out the source and object of those three in their context. Ask yourself, "who is causing the tribulation, and who is experiencing it?", "whose wrath is this and who is it directed toward?", "what judgment has been made and who is affected?". It makes a huge difference. Words have meanings and context is important, Ezra. Your confusion of terminology serves no useful purpose, quite the contrary.

Those who are kept from the hour of temptation / testing are those who "have kept the word of My perseverance". What exactly is that? According to scripture it is those who refuse to accept the mark or worship the image. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:9-10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12 Those who persevere through the great tribulation will be kept from the hour of testing. It can't possibly refer to a pre-trib rapture.

Don't you remember that the rapture is pictured in Revelation 14 as the first of two reapings? That's the church right there. Or was that an inconvenient truth that was quickly forgotten? And what about those who hold to the testimony of Jesus, the saints? Your argument is based on the absence of a term and confusing terminology?

You are correct to see through the volumes of misapplied passages, made up stuff, confusing terminology, etc. and stick with what the scriptures plainly state. It doesn't matter if someone can stack wood, hay, and stubble to the sky, the fires of reality will reduce it to meaningless ash. You would think that if pre-tribbers really wanted to know the timing of the rapture, they would start with the two passages that describe it. Those two passages state that the rapture happens: at the last trumpet, which is God's trumpet after the resurrection I have yet to see a scripturally supported view of what God's trumpet is or when the last trumpet sounds or when the resurrection happens that supports a pre-trib view. Why don't they focus on the timing of those events since they are tied directly to the timing of rapture? I'll even help. Jesus states in John 6 that the resurrection of those who believe in Him will happen on the last day. Reality cares not for theory. Stick with the truth of what's plainly stated and be prepared to go through the great tribulation.

True, and while we may be vexed in spirit by all the lawlessness, we should not let our hearts become hardened. We are here for a reason.

Amen. Being ready is more of where I wanted the thread to go but ....that's alright.

No, that's not at all what it says. That's what you want it to say. Making stuff up is not proof; it's what Hollywood, and apparently pre-tribbers, do. Good insight there Kan. The verse actually says that for those who have kept the word of His perseverance, they will be kept from the hour of temptation which is coming on the whole world as a test. There is no mention of a rapture, only that they will be "kept from" the hour. Is it possible to be in the midst of something and be kept from it? Absolutely. Read about the plagues of the Exodus. Is it possible to be on earth during the hour of temptation and be kept from it? Absolutely. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. John 17:15 Notice also that the promise of being kept from the hour of temptation is for those who have kept the word of His perseverance. What exactly is "the word of His perseverance"? There are two scriptures that tell us. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:9-10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12 According to scripture, keeping the word of His perseverance is refusing to worship the false prophet by refusing to take his mark or worship the image. Those who refuse to worship him will not face the time of temptation that will come on the world.

We know that there will be a global time of testing, or perhaps more accurately, a global time of temptation. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10 Essentially, it will test people's beliefs by offering everyone an opportunity to demonstrate who they worship. It will make known those who are doers of the word and not hearers only. It will reveal those who have walked in the truth of verses such as: Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. 1 John 2:15-17 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 16:24-25 Living these truths, along with others, are what we as believers should be striving after regardless. If we have been, then we will fare well whether we go through the great tribulation or not. The issue I have with putting forth the pre-trib rapture as absolute truth is the complacency it tends to foster and the confusion that will arise in such a distressing time should it fail. This is why I say that teaching only the pre-trib view is irresponsible. People should understand the possibility of having to go through the great tribulation. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It's simply the most prudent approach. Anyway, as I see it, the time of testing will reveal who loves God and who loves the things of this world. Any other takes on the time of testing or how best to be alert and ready?

And I would pray that every member of the body of Christ would be like-minded.