Last Daze

The beast and his 10 horns destroy the harlot. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Rev 17:16 Have you considered the dual nature of "Babylon"? There are two Babylons that are destroyed in Rev 17 & 18. One is the harlot, apostate Israel, which leads to the rise of the man of sin. The other comes later at Christ's return and is Satan's kingdom. One takes place in an hour when the 10 horns receive authority as kings. The other takes place in a day, the day of the Lord, at His return.

It's important to realize that Babylon is primarily spiritual. It is the effect of Satan's kingdom on the human race. It started in the Garden of Eden and will continue until the return of Christ. Along the way, it manifests itself in different ways in the natural realm, the city and tower of Babel being its namesake. In the last days, it is pictured as a harlot, the symbolism most often used of apostate Israel. Apostate Israel in these last days resides primarily in western culture. The beast and his ten horns bring down the harlot according to Rev 17. The rest of the world is wising up to the harlot's monkey business and are being guided by the beast and his horns to being about her demise. It will be a multi-faceted takedown led by Russia and China. And, yes, there will be an economic aspect to it.

I like to refer to this passage: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses." Matthew 23:1-2 to point out that that "taking his seat" can be used as a metaphor for "assuming the authority of."

I see what you're getting at and I'm not saying that either of us is necessarily right or wrong. We just have different ways of going about understanding prophetic scripture. I see America in prophecy inasmuch as she and western Europe have embraced the harlot (apostate Israel), something that the beast and his 10 horns will destroy. You see America as an 8th beast (if I understand correctly). I think we both agree that America will come under judgment and sooner rather than later. Her corruption is terminal and it would behoove us all to prepare for a time of great tribulation. How God speaks this message to individuals is the work of His Spirit.

And when it comes to "holy city" there's this: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect. Hebrews 12:22-23 Contrasted with Babylon, the city of spiritual wickedness. The events of the end times, regardless of how one interprets them, will separate the wicked from the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and the righteous will inherit the earth.

There are several liberties you take that I don't feel comfortable with and I think this leads to our divergent views. Ultimately, it will work out according to the will of God. Ours is to be ready, to pray for the strength to endure the things that will occur during the time of great tribulation, should we live that long.

Thanks for your thoughts. Revelation 20 describes the abyss as a place, a prison where Satan is cast for 1000 years. Eternal condemnation is the lake of fire.

This is where it is crucial to understand that these kingdoms have a supernatural and a natural aspect to them. Reference Daniel 10 where it talks about the supernatural princes and kings of Persia and Greece. The mountains represent risings of supernatural influence that lead to earthly kingships. That's why the seven heads are viewed as both seven mountains and seven kings. When the beast was released from the abyss, he spawned the feet of iron and clay, a multi-national world government we call the U.N. Since there is no king running the UN, the beast (an evil angel) is functioning as its leader, an eight king of sorts.

I browsed through that link and what throws me is this: I believe this clue given by the angel also reveals to us that having a knowledge of Israel’s history is a critical key required if the door of understanding is going to be unlocked concerning just who this Eighth Beast is. There are no mentions of seven prior beasts in Revelation. There is however a mention of seven heads. Are you saying the beast in Rev 17 is an eighth head ? If so, then why doesn't the imagery show it as such?

Yes, I believe they are different. The reason is because the dragon is never referred to as a beast, and there is no record of Satan having been cast into the abyss. The identifier "out of the bottomless pit" is used to distinguish it from the beast from the earth. Yes, the beast from the earth is the false prophet, the man of sin, son of perdition, the only human in the evil trio. I've even kicked around the idea of Judas being resurrected for the purpose of Satan once again entering him (the son of perdition) and deceiving the world. I agree. I believe they are the same. I tend to agree. The beast was cast into the abyss in the first century while the gospel spread to all the nations. Also, during that time, Jerusalem would be trampled under foot by the Gentiles. Thanks for the exchange.

These three 10-horned beasts are the same: Daniel 7, Rev 13, and Rev 17. They are pictured differently in their different contexts for emphasis. The fact that there are no crowns mentioned on the beast in Rev 17 doesn't make it a different beast, it just isn't a detail relevant to the context. Babylon in its broadest context is the influence of Satan's kingdom on the human race. It is the MYSTERY of iniquity as to how the spiritual forces of wickedness interact with the natural realm. Satan's kingdom has been the MOTHER of all unfaithfulness and ABOMINATIONS since the Garden and will continue to be so until the return of Christ. There have been notable manifestations of Satan's kingdom on earth such as the city and tower of Babel. It shouldn't come as any surprise that the last days manifestation of the mother of harlots is a harlot. It's the same harlot that we see pictured throughout the old testament, apostate Israel. Rev 17:16

I'm not saying I have it all figured out but I can sure as heck see what's going on in this country (U.S.) and a lot of Europe.

The red dragon is the serpent is the devil is Satan. Scripture refers to him by those names. Why create confusion by calling him a beast when scripture doesn't? And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:9 The beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7 is pictured in Revelation 13 as also having 7 heads because it reflects the transaction between him and the dragon. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne, and great authority. Rev 13:2 Satan's power, throne and authority are signified by his seven crowned heads. The beast having crowns on his 10 horns indicates their subservience to him. Yes, the beast with 10 horns is a prince under Satan. He is responsible for the sixth and seventh head. The beast from the earth has no connection with the harlot destroyed by the beast with 10 horns.

I'll let you do your own research and form your own opinions, if you care to. If not, no biggie.

I'm not sure how thoroughly you've looked but no matter, it will become clear soon. I don't know you but if you're one of those people who thinks that Jews can do no wrong and you must bless them even in their wickedness, you've been hoodwinked. God never told Israel that He'd bless those who blessed him. God made that promise to Abraham. The harlot has deceived many by misappropriating that verse. I used to be one of them.

It may help if point out that the beast and his 10 horns are evil spirit beings as evidenced by their coming up out of the abyss, and that they work to cast down the harlot in preparation for the rise of the man of sin. So, while I may not be able to say that horn #3 did this and #8 is responsible for that, anything leading to the harlot's demise is very likely in some way traceable back to the beast and his 10 horns. They utterly despise her. If you're not able to see the harlot's corruption and wickedness and decay being exposed, just give it a year or so and you won't be able to help but see it.

I can, but I won't because the information is readily available.

In case you are looking for a scriptural example of the sea being used as a metaphor for the abyss, consider this passage: It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ Deuteronomy 30:12-13 And Paul's paraphrasing of it: But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. Romans 10:6-8 I think they used the sea as a metaphor for the bottomless pit (abyss) because to them it was bottomless.

Yeah, I understand that there are several different ways that people define Jews or Israel, and it can be confusing. The way I see it, there is a group of people of Jewish heritage who believe they are God's chosen yet exalt themselves above Christ and reject Him. They are very wealthy and powerful and evil. They reside primarily in western culture, but not exclusively. This is who I consider to be the harlot. Their power is waning, though, as the beast and his 10 horns are undermining their control. This is evidenced by the exposing of their corruption and erosion of their hegemony.

The waters are: And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages." Rev 17:15 Babylon, in its broadest context, is the influence of Satan's kingdom on the human race. It began in the Garden and will continue until the return of Christ. Yes, apostate Israel is part of the great city Babylon. She resides primarily in western culture where you hear the cries of antisemitism the loudest. Follow the money.

It's in the spiritual realm.

What I refer to as the trio of evil is enumerated twice in scripture: And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. Rev 16:13 and And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:10 The dragon is Satan or the devil. The beast is the one with the seven heads and ten horns. He is an evil spirit prince who is responsible for setting the global stage for the rise of the man of sin. The false prophet is the beast from the earth with two horns. He is the man of sin, the son of perdition. Other prophetic "players" would include the harlot, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the seven plague angels and, of course, the Lamb.

In my post I stated apostate Israel. Did you miss that key word? These verses encapsulate the harlot's identity: I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9 and again: Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Rev 3:9 It's the same group that Jesus called out as the spawn of Satan: You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

No, "the sea" is not in this case considered to be "mass of humanity." Revelation 17 clarifies where the beast rises out of. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. Rev 17:8 The abyss is where the beast rises from. The abyss is only ever used in the context of evil spirit beings. It is their prison. It has nothing to do with the mass of humanity. The beast is an evil spirit being. He is both the prince of Rome and the prince of the seventh head. The harlot in Rev 17 is the same harlot pictured throughout the Old Testament, apostate Israel. However, she resides primarily in the U.S and Europe in these last days. Her destruction is taking place before our eyes and will be completed when the beast and his 10 horns destroy her with fire.

I agree with your assessment of the seven heads being kingdoms that have been or are significant in the history of Israel. Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. Rev 17:9-11 Have you considered the possibility that the beast is himself an eighth "king" and not an eighth beast? Let me explain. From Daniel 10 we know that evil spirit beings known as princes are responsible for spawning earthly kingdoms, prince of Persia, Greece. There's no reason not to think that this is true of all the seven heads. Revelation 17:9-10 show this supernatural / natural cause and effect. The seven mountains are seven risings of supernatural influence. Mountains are often used in describing kingdoms. These risings result in the earthly office of king. When it comes to this final world kingdom (the U.N), there is no office of kingship so the evil angel prince who spawned it is acting as its de facto ruler, an eighth king. This is until the man of sin is revealed and becomes the seventh king.