RCruise

WOW!!! It is really hard to say much except I will pray with you all! I am not proud to say that I have been down this road three times but very blessed to say The Lord answered my prayers! My first marriage was to a woman who couldn't keep the guys out of our bed and I married her as teh "honorable thing" for she was pregnant. It didn't last to the first Anniversary before we split up. We tried several times after that but I was on drugs by then. I got busted, got misdemeanor and probation and decided to "clean it up". I invited her to my parents one night to make a choice. Give up the drugs and party life and raise our daughter together or divorce. She chose "party". I fought for custody and lost. Her parents hired a good attorney who had her put away the sleazy clothes, put on a decent dress buttoned to the neck with a cross hanging around her neck. A year later I met a woman in a bar who I knew was my dream girl. We lived together for a while but I loved her like no other so I finally convinced her to marry me. (she didn't want to marry since her ex was violent ex-cop who beat her mercilessly even put her in the hospital several times and threatened to kill her and the children(2) if she tried to take them). We finally married and one year later had my only son. I loved her immensely and worshipped her (I know..) About 8 months after my son came, I was really struggling with my own rage nature and violent ways for I wanted my son to grow up in the best of homes. My dad used to beat my mom and us boys (5 and I am eldest) and we best never loose a fight. He and his brothers had a "tough guy" reputations, so would his sons if he had to beat it into us....and he did! All of us are six feet or larger and fought all through school always in trouble. The Lord called me that night, when my son was eight months old. Totally shocked me for I hated most Christians and thought they were nothing more than hypocrites and liars. Oddly enough, in two (wide awake) visions, the last I knew to be some time away, He revealed two children in a pleasant farm like Church setting I knew was my home and Church to pastor, my children and, my wife was running toward me behind them. It was so peace filled and beautiful and of course I imagined the other child to be my daughter from my first marriage and the other my son. But as their mohter got closer, I noticed she was more dark skinned, not a white woman and ... not the woman laying next to me whom I dearly loved so much that death was preferable to being separated from her. I put that away believing to have some allegorical meaning. A few years into serving, I lost my temper at the church who were spreading false lies and rumors and gossip about us, and several people in our church. I back slid and figured I had it right to begin with. "Hypocrites and Liars and Backstabbers". We were married for 18 years with more frequent problems and separations in the last 5 before she up and left for Barbados, moved in with a native younger than half her age. I moved back to my home state and a year and half later rebounded with an old high school flame with twins (boy and girl age 3) who the dan abandoned at birth. I remembered the vision (though not clearly enough...she was white also) and figured that must be it! Got married and it lasted one and half years. And she left me because I was reading the Bible! I had gotten a deep hunger to search again and seek. She gave me an ultimatum to throw that Bible away or she was packing up her kids and leaving. I couldn't believe it. She was on welfare, her dad was making her rent and since the day we met, I took over all responsiblities and was purchasing a nice home for all of us. I called her bluff and that was a week before Christmas of 1996. Her dad was there moving them out and back to her old house on the 22 and 23rd. I knew deep down I couldn't give up seeking. It was like a burning deep within. Yet, I couldn't believe God would want to let me railroad another marriage just because of His Bible and my reading it. I finally on January 17th of 1997 determined I was getting nowhere, God was not going to answer and I closed my Bible to put it down and call her to make amends. As I went to lay it down...The Holy Ghost come all over me and Spoke telling me how He had steered me physically and Spiritually to that place and to seek HIm. It was my decision and I had to make it right then. I knew and still know today that had I flinched or waited a while, He would never return for me. I hit the floor with my knees bawling on the cushion of my sofa and Jesus met me there. We enede up divorced though I hung in there and tried to get her to come back and I would take care of them all. She moved one guy in and then another all in that same year. The Lord showed me that all she wanted was sex and a daddy for her kids but, her terms. We divorced and it was then I was shocked to find that I was number 10! She told me 3. Talk about dishonesty! I have made my mistakes but when I finally surrendered my needs to Jesus and said I would not date nor seek and that He needed to point her out if there was a wife and that she needed to love Him more than me.... There is yet another that I nearly married believing she was a Christian and committed but, I began to slide away again from The Lord, not totally but I got slack in our Relationship and care and prayer time. She broke my heart mightily but, even worse, God did not seem to be there anymore. I came to a point where I nearly blew my head off with a shotgun. A loud yell in my lonely empty office as I leaned over the barrel shook me and as I looked up and around...no one there....my eyes fell on a large frame on the opposite wall the was an enloarged Ephesians 2:8-9 and for the first time...."Through Faith..." crossed my eyes and sunk into my heart. Again I hit the floor face down and He was there. He took me through His Word finding Him in every place and picking out His Promises and standing upon Him which brought me to what kind of woman I placed before Him...one that loved Him more than me....and He would have to point her out. I lived in Grants Pass, Oregon at that time and did ministry on message boards like this one over Lycos plus e-mail ministry. On January 17th of 2000, a woman ( I had no idea from where) in Texas whom I had ministered to for over a year and half like so many others, sent me an email requesting an article I did showing in Scripture how the Church will go through the Great Tribulation but no the Wrath and how Scripture show them to be separate and distinct. When I went to answer her and attach the documents, I was careful how I worded things for I never wanted any impropriety or appearance of such, the Lord spoke to me and plainly said; "Tell her you Love her.." WHAT?? I have never met her, no idea what she looks like...." I came up with ever valid point in the books! I knew it couldn't be God speaking to me. He dispelled every issue in the blink of an eye. As far as never "seeing her...not knowing what she looked like", He asked me if that wan't my problem all along in "my choosing a wife"? But what did I see? I saw a beautiful heart that loved Him deeply and shared her own painful testimony with others to help them. I saw a strange thing in myself that I DID love her but wasn't revealed until that second He spoke it to me. So, in about four or five paragraphs, sort of beating around the bush, I said it in an email when I sent her the documents. We were married that June, I lost my business (which was another fact that had depressed me to suicide before) and I moved to Texas. We have been blissfully married for seven years with no fights or arguments but a deeper Love for Jesus and each other each and every day since. Until that day in January 2000, The Lord had restored me through Faith in His Word and a deeper personal Relationship with Him but, there was this "dead zone" I could not fill and prayed and prayed He would fill it that total Joy would return. It disappeared that day. What else I have learned is that He has used her's and my marriage to liken His own desire for all of us to be close and intimate with Him. I know He can restore marriages for I have seen it in miraculous ways even when one had cheated on the other and those marriages are stronger today than they ever were. I had made bad choices and compromised His and my relationship with the fiancee' I thought was Christian. I went through road blocks of The Lord headlong on my own and sufferred for it. But, when He showed it to me the night I would have given up and ended it all, it worked a Godly sorrow to repentence and rebuilding His and my Relationship and He gave me "Beauty for Ashes". The ministry my wife and I now work together is to share that hope in Jesus Alone. Give Him all the expectations and personal needs we normally would expect from a Godly Marriage and He will lead us with His Wisdom to the Right person of His Choosing. I would never have chosen my wife I have now. She is not the "kind of woman" I ever looked for yet, she is more beautiful physically, spiritually and, heartfelt than any on the face of the earth. And she is of Hispanic heritage and brown skin. Leave it to The Lord!

WOW!! This has gone in all different directions! First, if you, "Dear Judy", were seeking guidance on whether to go to a retreat that this man was teaching at or not, I believe you answered yourself in your own post. Seeking general guidance from a message board on these matters will generate exactly what you got. While it is True that in God's eyes there is no difference in "sin levels" we DO know, contrary to several posters beliefs, that there is specific Biblical Prescription for various sins especially for those of sexual deviancies from God's Word. Also, those who deal with this young man should be from his own church without interference of knowledge by others not there ..... like us. This does border more on a gossip session for too much info was given to the wrong people here. It matters not whether he or she were married, what leadship he is in, if they are involved or it was a one night fling, there is no measurable difference to the act for it was done by both defiling the Temple of the Holy Spirit of God. Plain and Simple. Nothing is unforgivable except one and wwe do not need to bring that up here. Yet, The Biblical Prescription should be followed by that Church. Those "more Spiritual", Holy Ghost filled leaders or elders should take this in hand not those who are fallen into the very sin nor those who would make a bigger mess of it that lack the Spiritual Maturity and leadership of Christ within. I fear that if the leadership is as presented and do know and are not dealing with it as Biblically Prescribed, that Church is being led wrong and headed for derisions and failure in The Lord. Prayer is NEEDED not as much for the sinners but for that Church and it's leaders. The letters to the Seven Churches comes to my mind. Thyatira allowed the spirit of Jezebel and her sexual sins to flourish within the Church. Jesus warned that except she and her children (those following her doctrines of fornication) repent, He will "kill her children with death...." Paul chastised the Corinthians for NOT judging Righteously and putting the fornicator out from them and turning him over to satan for the possible salvation of his soul. You see, we are not doing a person any favors by simply forgiving and let live. If they do not repent by the private meeting or, by the witness of two in private or, by bringing them before the Church as a final attempt, they must be "turned out". If not, it infects the whole body or most of it. To "Dear Judy": Go to the other head Pastor and ask him what will they do. If nothing, pray mightily what Jesus would have you do and if He directs you to leave, then do so. But, He may well have you stay to be a light and pray for this Church. You never know until you ask Him and not man.

Thaddaeus, Good Word! But if I can just touch up on something here: We know by the Scriptures there appears the contradiction on this subject based upon one's interpretating The Great and Wonderful Promises yet, there are warnings to the Believer and acknowledgements that some will Fall away or Depart from The Faith plus Jesus Himself saying to John in Revelation two warnings about "blotting out a name from The Book of Life" which is clear evidence that a name has to be there to be "blotted" out. I struggled with this and prayed over this issue for, as one called to preach, I never wish to present a "falsehood" especially regarding Salvation. The Lord has led me in a journey of His Word that taking it Whole and Complete, Both His Great Promises and the fact of "Departing or Falling Away (both being the same act)" are True. The key is not in works as James appears to present but, in Active Abiding Faith as you have presented. Yet, there is a lacking of critical information from your post that has come forth out of His Word. "Power to become the sons of God.." (John 1:12) If we Abide in Him in Faith, not allowing the cares of this life (world) or "thorns" and if we "circumsize our hearts" in His Word (stoney ground) in that Abiding which is all inclusive, The Power to stay and press on is there. But it is wrapped up in the Faith. For we do not see God physically yet, we have excellent testimony of His Mercy and Power to change us continually as we draw close. I believe many miss this and mostly due to "false teachings and doctrines" which draw people to a "false Christ" or wrong expectations in Christ, in God. Most disappointments Christians face today is from "wrong expectations". He desires and Jesus commanded a Unity with Him in more Intimacy of Relationship than we have ever known with family or spouses. The Key rests solely in that Intimate Relationship and by it comes His Word and Power to sustain and keep us. Many, as Jesus said, seldom find that "strait (meaning not like a 'straight line' but, hedged and precise) gate" which IS Jesus. For all purposes and evidenced in Scripture, even His disciples had to narrow down their expectations and views of Him to enter in. Many left Him when He made it clear that He was not there to be a physical King and Rule over throwing the Roman dominion but, to manifest the Glory of God's Immense Love in Sacrifice for the Real issue; sin and it's dominion in the hearts of men. The "Power to become Sons of God" rests solely in that Relationship for He Promises that those who do so, WILL inherit His Kingdom. I speak personally as well that since seeing and going this way and not struggling to work as men would work (though I do the Ministry), I have become more dedicated and Loving to His Work and find Power to do so. It used to be an obligation for my calling but now is a loving honor to His Love and Care growing in me. We read these same testimonies especially in Paul's writings and think we understand but, I never really knew even after my ordaining until this Power and Love come by simply doing what Jesus said and that was to draw in close and Abide. And that is the key to Eternal Security. Jesus said that those who "endure unto the end shall be saved.." It is not an easy task for our flesh and worries and life will interfere. But His yoke and work He calls us to; that diving in and abiding in constant Personal Intimacy, IS lighter than what we put on ourselves or what the world puts on us. I found that the only "discipline" I needed was to discipline my flesh nature (put it to death) that kept me from spending more and more time with Him in His Word, in Prayer, in just talking with Him throughout the day. In a recent sermon I brought out how His Sacrifice was to "Reconcile us to Him, to God". The term "Reconcile" is most often used in "Marriage" where He in the Old and New Tesaments relates His relationship with Israel and the Church as a Marriage or Betrothed. If we split from our spouses for whatever reasons and then we become "Reconciled" to each other (a husband and wife) it usually is like at the first of the Marriage, like a "honeymoon" and desire to be with each other is kindled and passions to be near one another and not depart ever again from that place of closeness. It is the same in Jesus. God has poured His heart out over the wanton adultery of Israel from His Precious Love, Great Love for her. He would beckon and call out to her and even warn her of her consequences if she so chose to continue to be apart from Him going after others in His place. He never changes and feels the same for us. If we neglect that union in His Reconciliation, as Paul aptly put it, it is to our own destruction for doing so. Oh, He will beckon, chastize and call out to us to get us back (and I Praise Him that He does for I would not be here today) but, He will never force us to return to Him. I believe the parable of the 10 virgins shows us much as well. These are not maidens as some believe for there is no gender but "virgin" is used to denote purity. That "purity" only comes from Christ for all have fallen short and we can only be pure having washed our "robes" in His Blood. Five were wise and stored up plenty of Oil while Five did not and did not have enough to light the path in the darkness. So it is with us being made pure in His Blood, we only have The Oil of His Light if we Abide and seek and continue in Him in all ways. Else, we would be like the one man who of the group that were called from all the Highways and Byways to the Wedding Feast, this one man was found not "dressed" in "Wedding Garments" and was cast out for he knew he was bidden yet did nothing to "cleans" or "dress' for this Great Wedding Freast. He was tossed out into the outer darkness. "Power to become the Sons of God.." We need to seek that continually and Abide in it. Not by Grace alone but, By Grace THROUGH Faith.

this question has been beat more than a dead horse and it always seems to be thrown out there like a challenge rather than some enlightening or revelational help. Perhaps the more appropriate question would be "Can your name be blotted out of teh Book of Life?" For we DO have direct Answer from Jesus Himself on that one and anyone say8ng "no" would be calling Jesus a liar and no offense or foul toward the person asking or responding. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Can't blot out something that wasn't there to begin with...

As far as the "come out of her my people..." scripture, I believe we need to "seek the kingdom of God first...." just as Jesus told us and then ".... all these things will be added unto you.." Now, I know the exact "things" He was referring to was clothing, food, etc... all of our needs but, that will be critical in a time when "no man shall be able to buy or sell without the mark.." There is a website at : The Tribulation Network THis is a great book written by brother Dene McGriff about the Deception that is going on right now in the majority of Churches and just how deceived most Christians are and the depths of the Apostasy spoken of in the Scriptures. The amazing and sad thing to me today is that we are in the midst of Scripture coming to pass regarding the "last/latter days" and people are still arguing whether or not "America is the Babylon of Revelation". She is playing the "World Cop" for all the interests of power above her, killing all those who oppose her armies even in their own lands. She is the ONLY Nation that has made the World's merchants and kings rich, her financial strength only came alive after the depression because of the SEVEN MOUNTAINS - Seven of the most Powerful and Richest Families in the World , hence she "rides the beast with seven heads" to her renown and greatness. And, as far as ministering and helping others during this time, the first thing that has to be done is to sound the alarm to the "sleeping church" to wake up and remove the scales from their eyes, seek Christ with your Whole Being every day in prayer, fasting AND His Word that "you might be counted worthy to escape the Wrath" which is to come after the Tribulation of the antichrist. Right now as we speak, ADS is sending busses all over America making it easy to get "chipped". One will be rolling into your town soon if it already hasn't. How many people have you told about Jesus Christ and the coming tribulation this week? In one outreach site here in Houston, we have over 58 people led to the Lord since the middle of January. Not much considering Houston is the 4th Largest city in the US but, that is 58 who will not be taking the mark and will be with us and Christ in heaven! The time has come O Church, to wake up! And, to see the deception for what it is right now, seek the Lord in Truth and Spirit and, get on with the evangelical work of the commission given to each and every one of us by our Lord.

I printed that first post and will withhold comment until I read it as far as what he posted but, for those of you who are "americanized" and deceived into not seeing this nation is the "Whore", Few of you probably know that G.W. Bush signed the "Americas Pact" three months into office. That pact is an agreement (signed by every southern nation and Canada ) to combine the "Americas" North(of which Mexico and Canada is included) and South America (including Central America) into one huge Quasi Nation under one leadership and monetary system. They have about two-three years left and most of the roadblocks have already been cleared with the Federal Reserve, and Congress. Brazil is the last holdout waiting for a "better deal" but is already getting hit with some verocious economic sanctions by the World Bank. Once this is acheived, Waters will be virtually on every side of the "New America". Additionally, if one uses proper Holy Spirit guided exegesis instead of the "fools" and "false teachers" of today, you would realize that the "seven mountains" are literally seven powers. Guess how many of the Worlds most powerful and richest families were behind the Federal Reserve which built our economy back up on a credit system after the 'great depression"???? What other nation is MADE UP of "many waters" which the angel explained is really many peoples and tongues??? And what other Nation has made ALL the merchants of the earth "rich from her delicacies" and lusts? Now, "drunk on the blood of the saints" still got you stymied? This is Nation was formed in REBELLION to the authority over her, she killed many indiginous natives and displaced even more. She enslaved men from other continents(mostly Africa) and killed many of them as "property". Then she killed many in a civil war of "brother killing brother". Now, along comes WWI.....What part of "thou shalt not kill" does any "Christian" NOT understand?? In WWII we killed multiple innocents women and children with artillery and H-Bombs wiped out whole cities of innocents and what does the "Whore" call them???? OH YEAH: "CASUALTIES OF WAR!" Gee, I wonder if Christ called them that..... OR, how about the many Mennonites, Amish, Quakers, etc.... who didn't run but civily disobeyed the "military draft" because they believed God over the Whore.....many were put in prison, tortured, shot by firing squads for "standing up for what the Word of God says." How about the recent email I received from a Christian Brother in Fallujah who lost friends and family in a bombing raid where the people were only given a two hour and very weak warning. It's NO WONDER heaven rejoices: Re

Brad, I will happily comment on that First of all the Scripture tells us that John the Baptist was the promised coming of the messenger before the Lord's descent into Christ. But, John himself denied being "that prophet" to the pharisees when he was asked. Can you discern as to why he denied it when Christ said to his own disciples that John was Elijah? Christ "came down from above" as He repeatedly stated. He was already given the only body (flesh) that He would ever have and God rose that same broken and pierced body and Christ ascended back to Heaven in that same body. But, what did the angels standing by the disciples say to them when they "marvelled" at His ascent? Answer these few questions Biblically and you will probably be able to answer yourself as to why Christ will not come back by indwelling sinful flesh (for John the Baptist was born of procreation of both his mother and father while Jesus was created in the womb and not of seed). Finally, what did Christ say about how He would return in Matthew 24 and even warned of anyone saying He was already here or there or would return in any other fashion?

There is NO hiding place from God's Wrath, there is NO Left Behind" souls that will see salvation during or after His Wrath. Those who do not accept Christ NOW before His second coming are doomed eternal. The Word says after each plague or "vial" is poured out; "...and they repented not to give him glory. " After every plague, those words echo; "and they repented not to give him glory. " There is no one saved in the Wrath of God. Either believe God or men.

To any who say there is NO Rapture: Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:26-27 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Luke 21:27-28 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 1Thess 4:16-17: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I quit using the word "rapture" and started calling it just what the Bible says; First Resurrection. That way there is NO confusion to the written facts. We either believe God or men. It's that simple. Now, as to the timing, just read the preceeding verses in the Gospels as to all the signs which must occur first including the sun and moon being darkened and the heavens being shaken FIRST. THEN shall He send His Angels.... Suffering the Great Tribulation of the antichrist is NOT suffering the Wrath of God which He WILL remove us before His Wrath is poured out. During His Wrath He will pour out stinging locust-like beasts, Fire like hail from heaven, turn the waters poisonous polluting some to blood like the plagues of Egypt. That kind of Wrath we will not see if we are Christ's

Gary: I see rt cannot read scripture still! He cannot figure out what that event is!

rollin: No one ever attacked you. Althouth I did just tell you off over in the pre-trib forum. You are a hateful and spiteful full of pride and arrogancy little man. You can't debate you "pre-trib" position from the Authority of the Word of God alone and that angers you and then YOU start you mud-slinging , not shadow or myself. And you are doing it again with Benny, Davey and, JesusisGod2. Look at your own self and words twit. You got a LOG in your own eyes.

Greetings Gary and Blessings to you and your household in Christ Jesus! LadyC: To call a doctrine "heretical" or "doctrine of demons" does not say that those who believe it are heading for hell. However, I do question the "end" of those who dream them up and teach them. The same as using the altered Word of God (New Versions) will not send someone to hell but God is Very clear that those who originally changed His Word will be removed from the Book of Life. What the Lord revealed to me is that many are not and will not prepare themselves to go through the Tribulation. Their Faith will not be such as is needed for that time. Hence, much of the "great falling away" from the Faith will be due to this ill-prepared group. They will either walk away totally or seek further into altered Christianity which will be of the antichrist. And, He showed me that those who pervert His Gospel and His Word with these teachings and do teach these heretical doctrines will suffer His Wrath for He did not send them but rather they teach the vain imaginations of their hearts. The blood of many who fall away will be also upon their hands and they shall not be guiltless of it before Christ. So, no, believing the doctrine itself will not send a person to hell but, it will condemn the teachers of it and cause the weak to fall away. Hence, these "weak in the Faith" who do fall away and end up in hell IS due to the false doctrine.

Just who do you believe the "whore" of Revelation is?? Re

That is not so. Knowing the "signs of the times" just as Jesus gave them in Matthew 24 does not give away a specific day or hour. I have heard that debate before and it doesn't wash. It is as ridiculous an assumption as saying that the "saints and elect Christ speaks of are the Jews to be saved after the Rapture" when the Word makes it very clear (particularly from Paul's writings and letters to the Gentile churches) That there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Kingdom of God. Further that "saint" and "elect" is used consistently throughout the Word to address Gentile Christians. Do you see my point? The "pretrib" argument uses these little non-scriptural diatribes to support it's base. We are all seekers of Truth if we be Christ's and therefore must speak consistently and constantly in "Truth". It is not Truthful to say that the posttrib or (First Resurrection) stance violates the "know the day or hour" scripture because a sound and reasonable mind will see that is still impossible.

I believe it makes a difference as to which "Pentecostal" Church you attend. I attended the "Pentecostal Church of God" in Oregon in two totally different locations. Both preach "pre-trib" and that is the doctrinal stance of their headquarters in Joplin, Missouri (as I have been told anyway). I almost received my ordainment thru them until I was told that I would have to quit teaching "post-trib" stance. The pastor that told me this informed me that Joplin would remove my "license" and "pastoralship" if after a few warnings I refused to quit teaching "Post Tribulational Rapture". It caused me to seek the Lord more deeply because first I could see absolutely NO Biblically based right to "defrock" a born again man whom God had called just because of that anyway. The Lord led me down a different direction for ordainment. I was schooled and trained in the PCof God but, am "Independent" via World Christianship. Funny thing is that I HAVE preached the Truth of Scripture in a Pentecostal Church of God since regarding the Second Coming! Also, I quit calling it "Rapture" and now call it the "First Ressurection of the Just" at the unction of the Holy Spirit. That little change has opened minds and hearts more speedily because both sides of the "Rapture issue" have to agree we cannot go until "Immediately After" that point. Then it becomes easier to point to all the abounding Scriptures that deal with the "First Ressurection" and their timing regarding signs given.

Just one additional note. Food for thought if you will..... A flock will follow and emulate the example before it. If the Pastoral leadership do not do these things and do not teach both in word and deed, the flock will not do so either as a general consensus. Oh there will always be a few in some churches who are led of the Holy Ghost to minister outside the bounds of what is taught and follow the Word in emulating Christ but, they are rare and few.

Hi Sis Cat, Unfortunately, that is one of the pitfalls of the "corporate church" mentality. I have often asked in several different churches I have attended in the past what happened to "so'n-so?" Hardly ever get a knowledgable response. Then I asked if anyone knew their address or phone number so we could gather a few to go visit. Sometimes, it is they just didn't like the church and chose to go elsewhere but, more times than not it was due to some event (both tragic and trivial) that prevented their return. The worst thing a "church" can do is to not go with loving care to those who suddenly stop coming. I know of several instances where some felt offended by one or several persons in the church or felt unwelcomed after a few visits. In our "Home Church" counseling, my wife and I stress the importance of visitation, frequent visitation. Wouldn't it have been great during that time if many from your church took turns coming in small groups to your home at least once or twice a week to pray with you, fellowship and study and, give encouragement and caring support? That is what Jesus preached. Many just can't seem to see those Words of His though.

Right on!: Hey Sister Traveler! Big AMEN from Houston, Texas! Folks, it is critical that we maintain a fellowship with brethren/sisters in our walk with Christ. While I for one espouse more the "Home Church" idea as being closer to the Biblical Church, whether in a "corporate" church or in a home setting, we need fellowship. The "gathering together" is critical to our edification and growth. In other words, our emotional well being and our Spiritual well being depend upon fellowship. I know a man and his wife who shun any gathering whether a small church or whatever. Their doctrines are survivalist and he is ready to shoot anyone who comes on his property to seize or whatever (shades of Ruby Ridge). Yet the Lord is very clear on how we are to act and behave toward the world particularly in His "beatitudes". The survivalist metality is pre-meditated murder as well Christ Himself exposed. I tried for some time to witness the error of their ways. To no avail. This is the possible "un-checked" discerning of the Bible or Word of God when man is led by his own desires and heart rather than a fellowship who would bring the error to light at it's first conception. We need the fellowship of fellow Bible believing Christians to keep our mental waywarding hearts in check along with the Holy Ghost. Most important than what I have already mentioned, Jesus Himself said that where TWO or more of us are gathered together He would be in the midst. While this saying of His is not a direct order, it is a very blatant clue that we should not be "loners". I have seen the very short near future in the Lord. Churches as we know them, are going to have to compromise or disband. Those who refuse to "compromise" will be persecuted and buildings taken. Ask yourself this; "Will I still function strong in the Lord with all Faith and diligence if my church was suddenly gone?" If you can easily say yes to that, then ask yourself if you have a clear association with true believers that will continue outside the church.

He is a decendant but although his name is big today, the others have ancient names spanning many hundreds of years throughout Europe. And, it is their original fortunes and holdings that stabilize and give the latter decendants their fortunes. Nelson Rockerfeller is actually descended from British Royal lineage (I believe if memory serves me, Edward III). But, this is not unusual because many of these infamous filthy rich family lines did set themselves up in Royalty and ruling classes. They had to dominate the "Kingdom" if you will, in order to maintain their holds.

Consider this: There are seven heads on the Beast; Rev

Just a friendly interjection here: Some really good questions and some really good posts have come out of the original question. Now consider this: The Risen Roman Empire will rise in the latter days and Babylon of the latter days will also be very young. she will excersize great military and political and spiritual influence and control. The real question is why is the name Babylon given her? Well a study through archaic documents helps but, Alexander Hislop a minister who wrote "A tale of Two Babylons" gives us much insight since he has already done much research. I disagree with his analogies and conclusions about Rome and the Catholic Church but, she is involved. When I began to research these prophesies, the Lord challenged me to seek out all the nations named in the end times. Specifically, I was challenged to find this huge, powerful Christian nation. Now, many are named or given descriptive names even little Syria but, nowhere is a "Christian" or "righteous nation" found little or large. Instead, we find Babylon exercizing great dominion and control militarily, financially, politically and, spiritually. She sets over many diverse peoples and tongues and nations and is comprised of the same. The US is the only country comprised of every tongue and peoples from around the world. The "seven mountains" was a bit of a challenge since I could not identify specifically seven mountains around DC. But, it came one day as I was praying over it, these are not physical mountains but seven main foundational powers supporting her. Now enters the Fed Reserve. There are seven main and very powerful families who throughout the last 1000 years have risen to dominance and financial influence to the point that money or gold is no longer their quest and hasn't been for hundreds of years. These families have organized a powerful team with each other long ago to form a union that would dominate the world. Their lusts are for dominance and control. They caused the Wall Street crash by enticing business and industry owners into the stock trade and offering business. Once the trap was set and most of America's banks and businesses were leveraged out on stocks and options, they then caused a panic that sent all values to the bottom of the barrel then causing bank failure after bank failure which then cause the downfall of much of our industry and businesses. While the Banking Act was enacted in 1913, it wasn't until Roosevelt put it into action and signed away all of our natural resources (from trees to oil to minerals) as a backing that the power brokers finally were willing to back this country and every bank who joined the Fed. The banking laws until that time required banks to keep a large percentage of deposit in reserve and could only write a small percentage of loans based on the deposit totals of each bank. After the Fed became active, that was no longer a requirement because now the union of seven of the most powerful and richest families would back any member bank. In essence, they could write loan money out of thin air now without any Gold or substantial deposit backing. Until that time, Congress kept physical Gold on Reserve in Fort Knox as a standard of value and backing for the country as a whole. In short, with all the diversity of religions and even multiple tainted christianity, the nation is become a "habitation of devils" and is yet to be judged but her judgements are already starting. As far as Alan Greenspan and the Fed; Alan's position was created to oversee the board which members have to respresent the internal member banking community. These positions were created to protect us from the devils that Congress and the President knew we were making a pact with to back us financially. It's kind of like you desire to have security so you sign a pact with satan, set a panel of your children to set the guidlines and control just how much satan charges your soul for his help, and you require satan to put "in God we trust" on the money he creates out of thin air for you as if that will keep him in check. Satan doesn't have a problem the name "God", go ask him now to put "In Jesus Christ We Trust" in it's place and see what happens.

Hey Catsmeow, Sis, you know I am not the legalistic type and certainly will not start now. I began to make a comical comeback to your post about not feeling the unction of the Holy Spirit to start wearing a head covering when something came to my mind and then I saw William's post to you also. The biggest problem with today's church and today's christian in general is that they do not simply obey every word from God's Word. We have all complained about some complacency in the church or the fact that satan has entered her so easily. The main reason is that we "pick and choose" whether we should obey. The Holy Ghost is not in opposition to any of God's Word and would certainly never leave doubt as to the following of His Word. Sometimes, I believe He is silent on things we know in our hearts we should do and can discern easily the basic Truth in His Word. Like I said before in the other thread and as William has aptly pointed out here, the "fleshly attraction" must be "covered" so as not to take away from the "Spiritual Message" and the Glory of God. And, the "head" (husband) must be present and in line (covered) with Jesus Christ and the wife in line (covered) by her husband. There is both spiritual and carnal requirements in Paul's writing.

Blindseeker! Beautiful study!! :applause:

Sis, there are no "Blonde" or "Duh" moments when asking a question or for clarification. As the old saying goes: The only "Dumb " question is the unasked question.

Hi RCruise! How ya been? Okay, I'm confused now. I know that the angels did carry messages back and forth. But, from the cross forward? I thought the tearing of the veil was symbolic of our now being able to go before our Father on our own, not needing messengers. Hey Sister Trav! Angels were never part of the "veil" of the temple issue. That was God's separating a place - Holy of Holies - unto Himself in the presence of man to receive their sacrifice. Christ became our sacrifice and thus rent the veil separating us from God but, the angels still minister in their same capacity as ever until all things are fulfilled and the old passes away. Look at Revelation: Rev.