archaeologist55

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone else wants to see anyone abused, but in these dictatorial households, abuse does happen and it happens more often than we would like know or are generally aware. And I am not talking beating someone. I am talking about mental and emotional abuse. Marriage was not designed to be a one-way-street. It is supposed to be a mutual partnership. I agree , I don't think it is a one way street either. If my spouse was crossing a line in that area and just being oppressive or dominating I would definitely not submit and have something to say to him about it . The wife submitting to her husband and the man having authority is not the same to me as the man having the authority to be "abusive" in any way, mentally, verbally, psychologically or physically or controlling, or dictatorial or tyrannical . selective submission, no wonder christian homes are in such trouble. where in the Bible do you see any verse providing instruction that the husband is to be a tyrant? because some men ignore what scripture teaches does not mean you toss biblical instructions out the window nor do women get to ignore the commands given to them by the biblical authors. there is no verse telling the women that it is okay for them to disobey God's word if their husbands disobey it. It has been argued on this thread that if a man wants to be a control-freak, if he wants to be domineering and tyrannical, then he is not prohibited by Scripture from governing his family in that way and the woman is bound to submit to him even if he is a jerk and unreasonable. The argument is that as long as he doesn't tell her to rob a bank, or kill someone, he is pretty much in within his right to be controlling jerk and she is commanded by Scripture to submit unquestioningly. That's the argument being made and so far NO Scripture making that case has ever been presented. This is not about selective submission. This is about what the man can force his wife to submit to. The Bible doesn't allow for selective submission, but the commandments given to the husband preclude him from being allowed to be tyrant and treat his wife like she is the subordinate member in the marriage and he is the lord and master over her. That's what the issue is. You keep trying to deflect from that and act like I am advocating for the wife to be allowed to rebel against her husband. That's what you have to do in the absence of a competent argument. If men were taught to honor and respect their wives instead of treating them like underlings and inferiors, divorce might among Christians and non-Christians would decrease. Husbands and wives are partners. How do we know that? Because Gen. 2:22-24 tells us that they are one flesh. The word for "one" is the same word that speaks to the triunity of the Godhead in Deut. 6:4 where it says, "Hear O Israel; the Lord our God, the Lord is one." The word "one" carries the connotation of co-equal unity just like you have in the Godhead. Different in rank, but equal. The concept of a mutual partnership is illustrated in Scripture by Paul: Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.(1Co 7:2-5) There is a mutual consent emphasized in this passage. And why would marriage not be a partnership? Malachi 2:14 uses the word, haberet in Hebrew to which is a feminine noun to describe the wife as the companion of her husband. It's important to note that this is the wife of a covenant and a companion in the context of a covenant is a partner, not a servant or inferior. Shiloh is just making stuff up. First of all, the point I have been making, and continue to make is that the Bible does give the husband absolute authority in the home. I have used scripture to make that case, right out of Genesis where God stated the husband would rule over his wife. The word rule makes it clear the wife is subordinate to her husband. Look it up in a Hebrew Dictionary. See for yourself. Even look at how the word is used in other Old Testament scriptures. Shiloh is teaching rebellion. Just as Lucifer led a rebellion with 1/3 of the angels in heaven, Shiloh is helping him lead a rebellion down here with false doctrine. Your arguments are far more competent than anything Shiloh is peddling. All one flesh means is that since the rib was removed from the man to make the woman, when they are married, they are one flesh. The rib is restored. That is it. Shiloh took that verse in Corinthians out of context. Talk about sloppy theology! The only thing requiring mutual consent is time to abstain from sex because God doesn't want either the husband or wife tempted into committing adultery. Asking the question, "why would marriage not be a partnership," isn't exactly providing evidence for Shiloh's doctrine. I don't care how Shiloh feels about controlling husbands. I don't care if he thinks they should have wives. I don't care if he sees them as tyrants, abusive, any creative adjective he can come up with. The Bible makes it clear the husband is given authority to rule over his wife. Here is another little bit of food for thought. Some women agree. You know how some say there is a woman for every man. I don't doubt that is true. I actually came across a web-site run by women who pattern their lives after the "Stepford Wives," and desire to be ordered around by their husbands. That is how they chose to live. The best thing any man or woman could do is try to understand how each other looks at things before they get married. That would probably do more to keep peace and harmony than listening to people like Shiloh teaching rebellion. If the man and woman don't agree on things like this, find someone else. in this discussion, I feel that many people are introducing teaching they think is correct because they got it from a sunday school teacher, an elder or other church leader or their pastors and consider it correct while not double checking to see if they got the truth or not. this is a big problem in the church today as so many pastors introduce their own thinking to the congregation and their people lap it up like it was gospel truth. People blindly follow their leaders because they think God is speaking through them and they ignore passages of scripture which give them responsibilities to use their brains and analyze what is told them. In the marriage a woman is not a robot mindlessly following her husbands orders, for God may place upon her insight that tells her her husband is not listening to him and making a big mistake. She needs to speak up but that permission does not equate with non-submission. she gets to have her say and opinion but she cannot disobey scripture.

sorry i missed it. i do not even know what you are arguing about. PEW is not Christian so its findings mean nothing to the church. You are arguing about the lack of relevance of Pew Research Center to the church, as if all that is secular -- like numbers and statistics -- has no relevance to the sectarian. But currently there are 21 replies and 124 views to this topic less yours, so obviously PRC's results are relevant to other Christians on this forum. up to you. where in the Bible does it state that we are to listen to non-christians and their organizations? In Paul's letter to the Romans, Chapter 13 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor...." The IRS isn't a Christian organization, but if they tell you that you owe taxes, I strongly suggest you listen to them regardless. And if you work outside of your home and your boss isn't a Christian, do you think you can disregard his instructions, or not follow a secular company's policy and still keep your job there? And for the historical record, the Roman authorities referred to in Paul's letter where mostly pagans. PEW, Adidas, Microsoft and so on et al, are not governing authorities. you have gone to the absurd now and tried to place PEW with normal authority. IRS is part of the government and is not a secular entity like PEW

sorry i missed it. i do not even know what you are arguing about. PEW is not Christian so its findings mean nothing to the church. You are arguing about the lack of relevance of Pew Research Center to the church, as if all that is secular -- like numbers and statistics -- has no relevance to the sectarian. But currently there are 21 replies and 124 views to this topic less yours, so obviously PRC's results are relevant to other Christians on this forum. up to you. where in the Bible does it state that we are to listen to non-christians and their organizations? "...prove (test) all things..." I Thessalonians 5:21 Let no man think too highly of themselves... I Corinthians 8:2 "...for the children of the world in their generation, are wiser than the children of light" Luke 16:8 We are to be open minded, and accept truth wherever it falls, because God gives liberally to all. While we are to prove all things, the Bible also says to "hold fast that which is good" this is where the mistakes enter if we're not careful. again you prove that you do not know or understand scripture. not one of those verses give permission for the believer to listen to the unbeliever. You ignore Ps. 1 which tells us to 'not walk in the counsel of the ungodly.

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone else wants to see anyone abused, but in these dictatorial households, abuse does happen and it happens more often than we would like know or are generally aware. And I am not talking beating someone. I am talking about mental and emotional abuse. Marriage was not designed to be a one-way-street. It is supposed to be a mutual partnership. I agree , I don't think it is a one way street either. If my spouse was crossing a line in that area and just being oppressive or dominating I would definitely not submit and have something to say to him about it . The wife submitting to her husband and the man having authority is not the same to me as the man having the authority to be "abusive" in any way, mentally, verbally, psychologically or physically or controlling, or dictatorial or tyrannical . selective submission, no wonder christian homes are in such trouble. where in the Bible do you see any verse providing instruction that the husband is to be a tyrant? because some men ignore what scripture teaches does not mean you toss biblical instructions out the window nor do women get to ignore the commands given to them by the biblical authors. there is no verse telling the women that it is okay for them to disobey God's word if their husbands disobey it. "Submitting" to the husbands authority doesn't mean non-communication does it? I'm not talking about arguing, yelling or defiance but speaking---- and it doesn't mean enduring emotional or physical violence in silence. Submitting doesn't mean receiving punishment either. It is a "partnership" in that both are loved equally by GOD and given two separate roles, different attributes which are supposed to mesh together in a cohesive whole and to bring the couple blessings as they seek GOD's will & to walk with the Lord. The Bible uses the term "help-mate" , so the wife is supposed to be the husbands closest companion, his intimate confidante and personal supporter. GOD bestowed the authority to the man to take the leadership role, to make the final decisions & to be the spiritual headship and to rule over the family & the home. He did not give the man the OK by this to harm his wife or his family & neither does it tell the woman she must submit to it. I don't see this as being selective. 1Peter 3:7 "Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." Colossians 3:19 "Husbands, love your wives, and do not be embittered (harsh) against them. Ephesians 5:2 "and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:24 "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." Ephesians 5:28 "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself." Ephesians 5:33 "However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." I do not know why you need to put scripture in bigger font than the rest of your post and please note the words in Eph. 5:24 ;in everything'. notice there are no exceptions to the rule and the word 'everything' encompasses all areas of life, even when the husband becomes dictatorial. of course not. God has given women intelligence, wisdom, understanding insight and other good qualities that are needed by the husband in order for him to make the right decision after receiving wise council from his wife. though that does not mean the man will listen all the time or do what the wife wants. you also forget that evil plays a role if people let it in their marriages so do not blame the man or woman alone. (please note that nagging i snot a biblical teaching) don't know what you mean by that term but your own quoted verses say in everything so if the husband says go to your room well...what did God say in 1 Peter 2 which you did not quote-- if you are punished for doing good that is commendable to God...? if you have done right and are 'punished' by your husband then God does not consider you have done wrong. please get off this idea or present actual scripture which state this. marriage is not a partnership where the wife has the same roles as the husband or she is considered a leader of the family. you redefine words to fit what you want to see in marriage and not what God wants to see. God did not give permission for anyone to sin but your redefining biblical words hinders your understanding of what. marriage is all about and the roles for each member. you also forget that some wives abuse their husbands and ignore his leadership. let's not make this a one way street issue

sorry i missed it. i do not even know what you are arguing about. PEW is not Christian so its findings mean nothing to the church. You are arguing about the lack of relevance of Pew Research Center to the church, as if all that is secular -- like numbers and statistics -- has no relevance to the sectarian. But currently there are 21 replies and 124 views to this topic less yours, so obviously PRC's results are relevant to other Christians on this forum. up to you. where in the Bible does it state that we are to listen to non-christians and their organizations?

i am tired of your insults and accusations. i was not sloppy but reminded you that the context of chapter 2 carried over to chapter 3. think about it. you are still arguing against yourself you accuse me of what you are doing as you cannot get it that what Peter is saying to slaves aplies to wives as well. read chapter 2 again and see. you do not seem to grasp the concept of free choice, a corrupt world, fallibility in humans and so on. and you do not grasp the meaning of submit and how it is applied. your obstinence and stubbornness tire me. you just do not get it. you also fail to grasp that people get bad teachings from their pastors and church leaders and act according to what they have been taught regardless of what scripture says. it is not a 'men are supposed to' issue. as Jesus said 'remove the beam from your own eye first...' which tells you to stop telling men what they should be and start obeying God correctly and honestly then maybe you can see clearly enough to tell men what to do and how to be. from what I read in your posts, you have a long ways to go. the beam verse also applies to wives. they need to humble themselves and obey God removing the 'beams' from their eyes before demanding their men to be better. you have no argument. yes you do. women shouldn't feel the need to rebel, rebellion is sin and not a biblical teaching. those women cannot blame their husbands for their choices, that is failing to take responsibility for one's decisions and actions. you are blaming men for the choices made by others and that is wrong. if you cannot discuss properly and cannot accept comparisons then I suggest you go talk to someone else. and you were wrong your use of the word 'rant' here only demonstrates your closed mind and inability to discuss or consider other points of view. i did not rant but made points that you willfully dismiss and ignore. i didn't brush it aside, i didn't think you could comprehend the difference between the definitions of the words. nor do I think you will understand or accept the fact that that verse does not over-rule nor negate NT teaching about wives submitting to their husbands. a wife can be a partner and still submit, which is another fact that escapes you. again you do not understand that men being given leadership over their wives does not make the wife inferior. leaders have second in commands, guess which role a woman plays? on a side note, you accuse me of brushing aside or ignoring some of your arguments yet I noticed you have done the very thing you accuse me of. I think you need to go back and see the scripture i have used and how it applies to the marriage before responding. there is no scripture verse stating that if a man does this or doesn't do that then the wife is free from the command to submit. think about it.

sorry i missed it. i do not even know what you are arguing about. PEW is not Christian so its findings mean nothing to the church.

i will disagree with all of that. i do not think you are reading what has been written. Your use of scripture is best left unsaid and undescribed. we all fail but that fact doesn't change biblical teaching and that women need to submit. Wife submission must have been a problem in the 1st century as well, as Paul had to repeat it several times in scripture and peter at least once. again scripture is very clear, God said a woman's husband will rule over her so you are arguing against God not me or Butero. you do understand that leaders tell others what to do and get them in trouble when they disobey the instructions, don't you? You are actually arguing against yourself. marriages fail because women also fail to abide by scripture, two of which i put in my long post. women are not to rebel, there i no scriptural teaching allowing for that action; turn the other cheek applies to wives as well. your omittence of other pertinent and vital scripture demonstrates that you are not being honest in your point of view nor looking at all the scriptural teaching that apply to this issue.

I didn't use the word 'depends'.

the word 'tyrant' can be subjectively applied. you may see it that way others may not. the Bible is very clear on how the husband is to lead and be head of his wife, and the Bible is very clear that the woman in all cases must be submissive to her husband. yes actually you do. you would have to present biblical verses which support your view and definitions and so far you haven't. too many people, like yourself, apply your own definitions and forget about God's. again you use non-biblical words to make your point and ignore the fact that I have never said women were inferior to men, Just because she can't be the leader in the home or in the church does not make her inferior or the husband a tyrant. to say otherwise is to import your own selective fallible human ideas into biblical teaching and it is wrong. the woman has her commands to follow just like the men do, she has equality in that. giving her different responsibilities does not make her less of a person neither does restricting what positions she can hold. if you want to take your argument of 'equality' to the next level,you would have to argue that men are inferior to women simply because they cannot give birth. your selective reasoning undoes your position. your tone undermines your point and credibility as do your insults. your distortion renders discussing anything with you impossible. doesn't mean a thing.and your insults only reflect your bad character and point to your inability to accept God's ways and be obedient to them. No, you simply have not provided any exegesis to prove your reading of the texts is accurate. What you call "insults" I see as a level of honesty about the quality of your hermeneutics that you can't bring yourself to face up to. I am a blunt, honest person by nature and frankly, the fact is that marriage is not on the ropes because women are failing to submit. Marriage is the ropes because men have in more ways than one, abdicated the biblical role of husband as servant and a leader. They have either forgotten how to be a leader or they go to the other extreme and think they are kings of house and their wives are their vassals. Both extremes only lead people into ditch. And both are unbiblical. they are not a 'level of honesty' they are insults because you do not like being told something you so not want to hear. You do personal attacks when refuted or shown to be wrong and that is all your posts have become. according to your logic, women are perfect and not at fault for any trouble in their marriages and it is all the men's fault. you are dishonest in your presentation and your analysis. there is also no biblical teaching for women to take over leadership if men fail to do the job. If you want to appeal to scripture you better get it right and be honest about it all. Scripture doe snot support your point of view.

i am sure people have quoted 1 Peter in this discussion before but I will do it again for you so you know that scripture has been given on this issue: "18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. 19For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. 20For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for £us, leaving £us an example, that you should follow His steps:...1Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. NOTICE the word likewise after the word wives. This tells us that the context is continuing from chapter 2 and carried over into chapter 3. I am sure you know that chapter and verse divisions are not divinely inspired. Then notice the words 'conduct of their wives'. Bad men cannot be won if their wives behave badly, sinfully or in an unchristian manner. if they follow worldly ideas or bad christian advice then those wives are not following God but humans and that is wrong. NOTICE the wording of verse 20 and see how that will apply to wives as well. what you are demanding is perfection from fallible people before you or wives act like God wants. That is not Christian teaching. Do you recall the verse, do unto others...? or do not repay evil for evil? those biblical verses apply to the marriage relationship as well. If the husband is evil, those verses tell th ewives how they are to behave in response and doing what is unbiblical is not taught by the Bible. The man has free choice to obey scripture or not and no one is allowing him to be a tyrant. They will say he is wrong but that wrong behavior does not grant women permission to do sin or disobey God's teachings. A man is free to treat his wife any way he wants, it doesn't make it right or not sin and a woman is free to choose to ignore biblical teaching as well but nowhere in the Bible does God condone such actions. The church cannot tell a wife to sin and disobey God for then they sin and lead others to sin. That is not what the church is all about. You come across that way. No one has said that men, in general, have been taught correctly. That is a given but guess what, women are to be taught to do the same. it is a two way street. how you want men to act, you need to teach the woman also. Women are not the innocent victims in this issue, they do their share of sin , antagonizing, inciting as well. it is not a men's only problem. You do not understand scripture at all. Being one flesh does not mean they are partners. it is too involved to get into here, if it meant artners then there would be one less argument against same-sex marriage. again you mis-apply scripture to fit your point of view. That is not what that scripture is saying at all. Paul is talking baout ownership of the bodies and sexual relations not providing instructions on how to be partners. your understanding of scripture is heavily influenced by your misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about husbands and wives. Just because some men treat their wives as inferior doesn't mean the Bible teaches that. Just because God prohibits women from leadership in the family and the church does not mean women are inferior or second class. it means that there are different roles for the women separate from the men's roles and God gets to make those rules.

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone else wants to see anyone abused, but in these dictatorial households, abuse does happen and it happens more often than we would like know or are generally aware. And I am not talking beating someone. I am talking about mental and emotional abuse. Marriage was not designed to be a one-way-street. It is supposed to be a mutual partnership. I agree , I don't think it is a one way street either. If my spouse was crossing a line in that area and just being oppressive or dominating I would definitely not submit and have something to say to him about it . The wife submitting to her husband and the man having authority is not the same to me as the man having the authority to be "abusive" in any way, mentally, verbally, psychologically or physically or controlling, or dictatorial or tyrannical . selective submission, no wonder christian homes are in such trouble. where in the Bible do you see any verse providing instruction that the husband is to be a tyrant? because some men ignore what scripture teaches does not mean you toss biblical instructions out the window nor do women get to ignore the commands given to them by the biblical authors. there is no verse telling the women that it is okay for them to disobey God's word if their husbands disobey it.

read scripture again and point out the verses which describe it to be a partnership.

the word 'tyrant' can be subjectively applied. you may see it that way others may not. the Bible is very clear on how the husband is to lead and be head of his wife, and the Bible is very clear that the woman in all cases must be submissive to her husband. yes actually you do. you would have to present biblical verses which support your view and definitions and so far you haven't. too many people, like yourself, apply your own definitions and forget about God's. again you use non-biblical words to make your point and ignore the fact that I have never said women were inferior to men, Just because she can't be the leader in the home or in the church does not make her inferior or the husband a tyrant. to say otherwise is to import your own selective fallible human ideas into biblical teaching and it is wrong. the woman has her commands to follow just like the men do, she has equality in that. giving her different responsibilities does not make her less of a person neither does restricting what positions she can hold. if you want to take your argument of 'equality' to the next level,you would have to argue that men are inferior to women simply because they cannot give birth. your selective reasoning undoes your position. your tone undermines your point and credibility as do your insults. your distortion renders discussing anything with you impossible. doesn't mean a thing.and your insults only reflect your bad character and point to your inability to accept God's ways and be obedient to them.

You've brought up some very good points archaeologist55. thank you. after reading so many more comments on this issue and glancing at the soapbox debate going on something had to be said. People who think they can subjugate another person who is supposed to be their partner in marriage and not their underling, are the ones who need to check their attitudes. Your views are based on a sloppy and backwards approach to what the Bible actually says. A lot of women get abused by men who think like you. I will copy and address individual points in your post: 1. People who think they can subjugate another person who is supposed to be their partner in marriage No one has advocated for subjugation. They have advocated for obedience to God's word. Different roles does not equate with subjugation. You have a wrong idea of the term equality, most likely a secular one. 2. are the ones who need to check their attitudes. there has to be one leader or no organization works well. Being a leader of the family does not make the partners unequal but placing different responsibilities upon the shoulders of its members. 3. Your views are based on a sloppy and backwards approach to what the Bible actually says According to what authority? Are you saying you are greater than God and know how to run the family better than he? What biblical verses do you base your point of view upon? What alternative divine source do you possess that teaches what you claim? 4. A lot of women get abused by men who think like you. No, they are abused because of the sin nature in all people which leads men to and women to abuse their spouses not because of people like me. Your problem is with God and how he wrote his Bible not with those of use who side with God and accept his rules.

well research polls are tricky and can get people to say a yes when they meant to say no just because of the way the questions are worded.... Pew Research is not known for being "tricky". consider the source. PEW is not a christian organization, then consider the fact that many people probably do not respond honestly to poll questions There's nothing anyone else can do about dishonest responders, and if Pew were a Christian org, I would suspect that all its religious data was biased in favor of Christianity. depends, christians are supposed to be honest and not lie so bias should not play a role in their work So Christians never lie? What other sins don't we do, so that Christ has died for us in vain? i think you missed the words 'supposed to be' when you read my post

these discoveries may have connections to the flood. There were two great historical floods of record: the total deluge of Noah's day, and a lesser but still massive flood that took place at the time of the Exodus, called the Deucalion Flood. This latter flood is when Atlantis was submerged, and the Americas -- especially South America -- rose many thousands of feet. Good sources for the recorded and oral history of the latter flood are: Immanuel Velilkovsky, Earth In Upheaval and Worlds in Collision; and L. Taylor Hansen, The Ancient Atlantic. i should add that velikovsky is not very credible and i do not know who hansen is

well research polls are tricky and can get people to say a yes when they meant to say no just because of the way the questions are worded.... Pew Research is not known for being "tricky". consider the source. PEW is not a christian organization, then consider the fact that many people probably do not respond honestly to poll questions There's nothing anyone else can do about dishonest responders, and if Pew were a Christian org, I would suspect that all its religious data was biased in favor of Christianity. depends, christians are supposed to be honest and not lie so bias should not play a role in their work

these discoveries may have connections to the flood. There were two great historical floods of record: the total deluge of Noah's day, and a lesser but still massive flood that took place at the time of the Exodus, called the Deucalion Flood. This latter flood is when Atlantis was submerged, and the Americas -- especially South America -- rose many thousands of feet. Good sources for the recorded and oral history of the latter flood are: Immanuel Velilkovsky, Earth In Upheaval and Worlds in Collision; and L. Taylor Hansen, The Ancient Atlantic. there was only 1 and since Atlantis never existed...

You've brought up some very good points archaeologist55. thank you. after reading so many more comments on this issue and glancing at the soapbox debate going on something had to be said.

well research polls are tricky and can get people to say a yes when they meant to say no just because of the way the questions are worded.... Pew Research is not known for being "tricky". consider the source. PEW is not a christian organization, then consider the fact that many people probably do not respond honestly to poll questions

a lot of atheists are looking to cause trouble . They are being unrealistic and intolerant. They do not practice what they reach. If the atheist wants to be tolerated thenhe or she needs to be tolerant of those who have a faith and express it in different ways. Their use of the legal system to bully schools and others into taking down religious artifacts shows their one-sided thinking and hypocrisy.

there are some things you should know-- i am allowed by God to call you out if 1) you are telling people completely unrealistic and nonsensical things that have nothing to do with the Bible; 2). if you are speaking gibberish and complete nonsense; 3) that your statements have no hope of being true. Then actually it has been just you I have said such things about because you are not bringing any truth to the website. you are bringing absolute gibberish and nonsense. it means that i recognize the limitations of binary and know how words are mis-read by others. every thing you listed above is true when it concerns you. Remember we are allowed by the Bible to rebuke those who are saying non-scriptural things. How do you think people learn when they are in error? we do not give those people a pass and ignore what they say, we challenge them, address their comments and point out what they are saying is not true and has no bearing on the scripture you are talking about. Passing the buck to avoid your own missteps is not smart nor Christian. While the apology is accepted, you have a lot to learn because you do not know what you are talking about, you do not know how to use scripture correctly and you do not know what scripture is actually saying. Thinking that you do is not the same as actually knowing. When Jesus said 'ye shall know the truth...' he did not mean you blindly accept everything told you or you read as truth. You still need to double check the information to make sure it is from God and that it is the truth.Then you need to make sure it is inline with what God is saying in the Bible. It is not an easy process and it takes time. You also do not understand many things especially how education works as God leads some people to secular institutions to get their education. You cannot trash that part of life simply because many institutions teach error. You are insulting God by your lack of understanding of how he and the Christian faith works. i am not being obnoxious nor am I venting. i am describing your posts to a 't' The truth may hurt but maybe you will learn something and seek counsel on how to get to the truth so that you are not hurting the church.

well research polls are tricky and can get people to say a yes when they meant to say no just because of the way the questions are worded. secular science is in conflict with the Bible, the Church and Christianity but real science is not.

i think that too many people are reading their own ideas into scriptures when it comes to women submitting to their husbands. They need to check their own attitudes and see if there is a spirit of rebellion working in their lives because so many people who comment on this topic tend to make this a human issue and not a spiritual one with the right perspective. people forget that the church belongs to Jesus and ultimately to God and they get to set the rules for their church. it i snot God, Jesus, Peter or Paul who have the problem with the instructions given it is the modern people who have let so much secular teaching influence their thinking that have the problem. Nor is the problem with the supposed patriarchal society/culture because culture is not a light unto scripture but vice versa. God has laid out rules so that everyone knows what is the right way or the wrong way and with secular culture under the domain of evil we know that their feminist, women leaders in the church etc., ideology is not of God and we do not follow that thinking. The world is not the leader for the church, the church is the leader for the world. the secular world does not have God helping them thus the church cannot ignore God and take the world's views and adopt them. Christians are to follow Christ, if they don't no one else will. think about it and stop pursuing selfish desires.