choir loft

Exactly correct, which is why I dislike the use of those particular slogans. They are used in conversation to suggest God does NOT judge. As I stated earlier, they are used to deflect arguments that God does indeed JUDGE the SINs of man. "God is able," is thus used to ignore the serious nature of divine rage and judgment so as to suggest God can resolve a situation without resorting to unpleasant circumstances in the life of an individual or a nation - or in our present situation, the entire planet. Buzz words and religious slogans are very dangerous because they are not Biblically oriented. For instance, when statements are made about the SINs and wickedness of our nation and how deserving we are of judgment from a Holy God - the statement "God is in control" is often employed. That slogan is used, not to support or agree with the idea of impending deserved punishment, but to oppose it. The slogans are so deeply ingrained in the lexicon of the average person that it becomes necessary for education to the contrary to be promoted, especially among the Biblically illiterate. People resist the idea these slogans are both unBiblical and contrary to divine will as revealed in Holy Writ. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Nice fantasy. Chapter and verse from the Bible to justify your false interpretation, please. You are referring to a fiction published by Dante Alighieri in the middle ages. Of the three portions of his Divine Comedy, your post appears to refer to that which was titled 'Inferno'. The work was so exquisitely descriptive of the afterlife that it was accepted by millions as truth despite its sarcastic nature. It was the middle ages' version of Saturday Night Live and just like today it too was taken seriously when it was only meant as humor. In Dante's Inferno, the damned wrestled with torments. George Lucas used one of the verbal images in his sixth episode of Star Wars. When R2D2 is taken into Jabba the Hutt's dungeon, it sees another droid upside down having the soles of its feet burned. Same as a scene in Inferno. Good fiction. Poor doctrine. Everlasting burnings refers to the fire, not the fuel. Fire burns. Fuel is consumed. No fuel lasts forever. In order to make the idea of everlasting torment work, you must pervert the meaning of simple words; fire and death. This is the devil's work. Is it yours also? I certainly hope not. As I wrote earlier, if you can find a fuel that burns eternally please let me know so I can get some for my car. The use of the word FIRE in scripture is specific and describes total destruction of anything cast into it. So is the word DEATH. These are words with specific undiluted meanings. There is absolutely no description in scripture of the damned writhing in pain in the flame. Eternal abhorrence refers to a condition God declares to be irreversible. Once destroyed the condemned will not be reconsidered for another resurrection. Divine irreversibility is like yesterday. It will never come again - forever. The idea of eternal torment is consistent with Roman Catholic doctrine, which was formulated as fear mongering as well as an opportunity to persuade Biblically illiterate persons to give up hard earned money. The Catholic doctrine places lost souls in purgatory, a spiritual parking lot, wherein God can be bribed to release the damned from torture. MONEY is given to the priests for prayers on behalf of the dead. While you're looking up aberrations of doctrine in scripture, please also tell me where it says God can be bribed. You won't find it because God cannot be bribed. Now let the fear of the LORD be on you. Judge carefully, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery." - 2 Chronicles 19:7 If you buy the lie of eternal torment, then you must also accept the Catholic doctrine that God can be bribed, which He cannot. Which is it? Biblical truth or false Christian myth? You cannot have both. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quite true. The problem is that people choose NOT to repent. Therein lies our present difficulty. Without repentance, God will not hear prayers asking for relief and forgiveness. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The phrase "God is in control" or "God is able" are religious slogans often used to suggest God would never judge us and that HE would use methods other than those clearly described in the Bible to affect humanity. They aren't Biblical. We are warned over and over again that God is able to judge here and now BOTH the sins of the wicked as well as the sins of the church. (1 Peter 4:17) It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness. God will NOT hear prayers unless confession and penitence come first. (1 John 1:9) Judgment is not years down the road. It's HERE and NOW. It is time to repent. To defer such a duty before God is never justified or approved. Our repentance must go to the bone. No superficial effort will be recognized by heaven. In repentance and confession lie the power of answered prayer. Without it one is simply wasting their time. God will NOT hear a single word unless confession and repentance comes first - COMES NOW. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

To begin, the concept of immortal life began with the ancient Egyptians. Look it up. Eternal torment was NEVER a concept recognized in Hebrew literature or tradition. Look it up. When the Greek and Roman empires arose, they adapted the Egyptian myth into their own form of classic pagan religion. Hades, for example, was the god of the underworld. Hades was a mythical person, not a place. Look it up. In the first centuries of the Catholic corruption of Christianity the Roman myths of an underworld populated by the damned (a word that properly means condemned) was further adapted and adopted. Hades became a place of everlasting punishment instead of a person. Gehenna, which was in reality a city dump for the residents of Jerusalem, also became a synonym for everlasting punishment. Finally the English word hell isn't Biblical either. The word hell is derived from the Old English word hel, which in turn is derived from a pagan Anglo-Saxon myth also referring to the nether world. Hell was adopted into the English language in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven. Look it up. All the concepts of eternal torment are pagan in nature, not originating with Hebrew scripture at all. Neither are they references made by Christ. (Hell was adopted in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven.) Look it up. It's all true. Moving Forward...... In Hebrew, the place of the dead is called sheol. Also referred to as a place of darkness or a place where the spirits of the sleeping dead are sent. Nothing is said about torment, nothing at all. The Christian subversion of the meanings of words is rampant. In order to force false doctrine upon its members, the Catholic church, as well as aberrant Protestant sources, change the meanings of simple words. The concept is not unknown among those experts in political propaganda. For instance, dead means a condition devoid of life. It doesn't refer to unDead, an occult phrase popular today. Life refers to consciousness and continuity and fire refers to that which utterly destroys that which is exposed to it. In no instance does fire EVER suggest eternal life - including eternal torture. Its not rocket science except for those who seek to justify their own aberrations of doctrine into something God did not intend. When God said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" in Genesis 6:3a was He lying? When Timothy, St. Pauls protege, wrote in his first epistle chapter six verse sixteen of God that He, "alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light." was he too promoting a lie? Either the Bible is coherent with its representations or it is terribly inconsistent. Or perhaps certain people have been led to believe a lie. Which do you believe, pagan myth or Biblical truth? Matt 25:46 refers to judgment that has no reversal. It speaks to God's everlasting contempt for sinners and that He will destroy them utterly without hope of renewal. Mark 9:43 is a misquote. You failed to quote the rest of the verse which states the condemned would be cast into unquenchable fire and destroyed. Matt 25:41 also speaks of permanent irreversible and FINAL destruction by fire - the Second Death. (Do you know what 'death' means?) Matt 10:28 is another deliberate misquote by YOU. The rest of the verse promises total destruction of body & soul. Your quote of Revelation 14 mentions the sea-beast. In the Bible a beast represents a system an organization or a nation. Specifically the quote refers to a religious system. Since it is impossible for systems organizations or nations to experience pain and torment, the section is meant to be taken figuratively. If not, then please show me another section of scripture which suggests otherwise. One cannot base a dogma on a singe verse and approach clarity or truth or intent of God to teach. The correct quote of Matthew 23:23 is as follows; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Once again you have misquoted scripture to support a false doctrine. Popular and deliberate misconceptions of the afterlife continue in your often quoted section from the gospel of Luke describing the rich man and Lazarus (Luke chapter 16). The point of the story is that of Jesus' teaching a moral lesson. The background of the story was commonly known in Jesus' day as a type of folk story or fiction. Jesus used it to teach a moral lesson. There are numerous references to such folk tales which are mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus as well as Biblical scholars such as Gressmann, Froom, Whiston, Edward White, Henry Constable and Edward William Fudge. Jesus often used related subjects to teach moral or spiritual lessons. I hope this helps some readers to understand the difference between pagan influence on modern dogma and what scripture is clearly teaching us all. Study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15) that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

In response to the title of this thread, THERE IS NO HELL. Nowhere in the Bible is it remotely suggested that sinners are sentenced to everlasting torture. Quite the contrary. Their destiny is total absolute destruction. It's called the Second Death. That which is promised for unrepentant sinners is similar to the destruction of the kingdom of Sodom. Everything was destroyed because of their lack of faith, which might have led them to righteous living. Did not the avenging angels promise Abraham that if even ten righteous persons were found in the five cities of Sodom God would relent from His design of destruction? They did not because they could not. When Sodom was destroyed, not even ashes remained. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. - Luke 17:29 In order to subvert scripture, one must first redefine the simple meanings of words. Good becomes evil, evil becomes good, light becomes darkness and death becomes life. This is something God did not intend. Life means life. Death means death and fire is that which utterly consumes anything thrown into it. Nothing long survives being thrust into fire. If you can find such a thing, please let me know because I'd like some for my car. According to God's promise, the righteous are granted immortal life. Sinners die. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that sinners are granted immortal life in some underground dungeon owned and operated by Jesus Christ, but THAT is EXACTLY what most Christians and secular people believe. It is not Biblical. In order for the MYTH of hell to be accepted one must also accept the notion that sinners are granted immortal life. They aren't because the nature of man is to die. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a Being mortal and having a mortal nature means that human life is limited to physical duration. That's it and that's all. Only God is immortal. "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16 EXCITEMENT was generated by the words of Christ when He announced that immortal life would be granted by God to those who made peace with Him. Today we have lost that simple excitement because we have chosen to believe the lie that we shall survive the grave because of some intrinsic capacity of our own. Such a thing does not exist. Jesus said He was the life. We don't have it. We don't have it within ourselves for good and we don't have it within ourselves to suffer beyond the grave. We have only death as an inheritance of life. As any secular person will tell us, death is part of life. But Christ has come to grant life to those who accept HIM. Its as simple and wonderful as that. For sinners, there is no hell. There is only destruction without hope of parole - ever. They will die like animals - 2 Peter 2:12b that's me, hollering from the choir loft..

They aroused the LORD's anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them. - Psalm 106:29 Covid-19 has become a global plague. That’s not a definition I’ve cooked up or something invented by the lunatic fringe. Medical experts and politicians in every nation have admitted we are in the midst of a dangerous plague upon mankind. Governments are struggling to get a handle on it and fear, irrational personal fear, is everywhere. Covid-19 is global, not localized at all. Despite the publication of the gospel of Christ everywhere and perhaps because of massive indifference to God’s provision for living a life free of disease we have continued to invest ourselves in SIN and wickedness. The Bible explicitly states God will not sit idly by and allow such conditions to proliferate. It's my belief we are experiencing a global judgment. Even some journalists and politicians will admit in unguarded moments this thing is Biblical in nature because of its reach into every corner of the society of man. Consider also that the fear being experienced by the general population is irrational - verging upon madness. Almost every conspiracy scenario being thrust into public awareness suggests the action of some international power. Every nation is busy pointing the finger of guilt at others. China now blames the US Army, Italy blames its immigrants, Europe blames America and the American media blames the general population as well as China. Some voices on the internet suggest a global conspiracy by some shadowy power group. For what purpose I must ask? To what ends is it promoted? The only scenario that makes logical sense is that it’s an act of God. What's the response? The response is to close all our churches and synagogues. On rare occasions empty prayers are requested. Current prayers are intended to invoke God’s mercy, but without the Biblical prerequisite of repentance and confession of sin. God does not hear the prayers of sinners or of unconfessed sin from anybody. Will God hear prayers asking for mercy when such prayers are not preceded by confession of and a desire to depart from the works of sin? He will not. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9 Pay attention to the first five words of the above quote from scripture. "If we confess our sins..." comes FIRST. If the current wave of illness is indeed of God, then repentance is of primary importance in treating it. I am convinced that if a sufficient amount of penitent prayers are heard in heaven the plague will disappear overnight. The question before us all is, how much is enough? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You are justifying Roman Catholic doctrine supported by the Jesuits and by Francisco Ribera, who penned the first interpretations at the end of the 16th century. This dogma attempts to distract obvious Biblical references to the Catholic church as the anti-christ system and the pope as its head/horn. Specifically your (a) question - verse 13:3 says "one of the heads was mortally wounded". You ask a question the Bible does not specify - ie: which man was wounded. History has shown us the man, the wounding. b: I answered this question in a previous post with specific names dates and events. Please refer to that post for your answer. c: The Sea Beast in Revelation refers to a religious system that arises out of "peoples and multitudes and tongues" (Revelation 17:15). The sea beast is a religious system as explained in Revelation - NOT a financial cartel and NOT a military dictatorship. Identification of the sea beast as a religious system is clearly made in the book of Revelation. I will not entertain a lengthy discussion of its identity because participants on these pages have difficulty accepting simple Biblical terms (beast = system & horn = system leader). The earth-beast is created in the image of the sea beast. It isn't a robot or facsimile of a military dictator as represented by popular myth and tabloids. The image of a system or individual is similar to the original. In the case of Revelation the earth beast is identified as the United States. The US has an identical religious component to the sea beast - meaning Roman Catholicism. The only difference between protestants and catholics is that protestants claim autonomous religious jurisdiction separate from the Vatican. This is false, however, as protestants follow in lock-step with almost every tradition & date Rome has endorsed - contrary to the Bible and accepting of paganism. Beast of the sea which has 7 heads for now is a reference meant to confuse the issue. I will not respond to hypotheticals. Finally, Revelation suggests a curious turn of future events - our future. The horn upon the sea beast will be betrayed by the world and destroyed or dismembered. You will not find this assertion in most tabloids BECAUSE they follow the Jesuit pattern for interpreting End Times events, again in lock-step with Vatican policy, the dogma of the anti-christ system. For further clarification by SCHOLARS please refer to the writings of Martin Luther and John Calvin - fathers of the protestant reformation 500 years ago who both identified the Catholic church as the anti-christ system and the pope as the horn. Since the mid-19th century, however, Protestant leaders have been demonically drawn to accept the Catholic interpretation of End Times events and personalities thus diverting Bible studies away from Rome to some fictitious unBiblical and non-Catholic authoritarian figure. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

In Revelation 13:3, one of the heads of the beast is mortally wounded and healed again. The HEAD refers to a man - a person in authority as leader of the beastly religious system. In Revelation 13:6, the beast NOT THE MAN opens its mouth to utter blasphemy against God. The beast represents a religious SYSTEM. It's important to get the interpretation correct and not vacillate between words and terms. If we get the interpretation correct and preserve the definition of terms we learn what scripture means when it identifies the beast and the wounded head. The wounded head: In 1797, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and seized the property of the church in Rome. The head was cut off. Pope Pius died in prison two years later. In 1929, Benito Mussolini restored the Papacy and 110 acres of land in the city of Rome to the Catholic church. Thus Papal authority was reestablished. The head was healed. Blasphemy of the beast: "The Pope and God are the same. So he has all power in heaven and on earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII p. 218 Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V If the above statement by authority of the Roman Catholic church isn't blasphemy on the part of a religious SYSTEM exalting itself against Almighty God, then please inform us what other example or definition does indeed constitute blasphemy. We cannot accept a different definition or application because there is none other available. The marvel of all this, the absolute marvel, is that the Bible predicted these events and actions over 1,700 years before they happened - EXACTLY as they happened. The devil would have us believe otherwise and seeks to cloud our minds. The best way to do that is to confuse words and meanings. The Lord Our God is not a god of confusion, but of faith and good courage and hope. Hope this helps. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I cannot acknowledge error - or agree with your apparent confusion of terms as demonstrated in your previous posts. Again - a beast in the Bible represents a system organization or kingdom. Agree or disagree? Let's come down on one point at a time, sir. A horn in the Bible represents a man, a single leader, who arises out of and is supported by his respective system organization or kingdom. Agree or disagree? Let's come down on another point. The beasts are not literally both kingdoms and kings, but a leader may be interpreted as having the authority of a beast. As such he will carry the beasts' name. A leader can not be the beast itself. Its a literal and figurative impossibility. To clarify: Another example may parallel Daniel 7 by explaining the historic meeting near the end of WWII between the Eagle, the Lion and the Bear. The eagle would be representative of US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, the Lion would represent British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and the Bear would be the leader of the Soviet Union Joseph Stalin. Biblical beasts always represent systems organizations or nations/kingdoms. A horn or leader of a kingdom sprouts out of a beast or represents a beast. A man cannot be both except in figurative language, which we do have in Daniel 7 and at the Yalta conference. THE COMMON MISCONCEPTION by extension is that the anti-christ beast is a man. He isn't. The anti-christ beast is a system. Popular tabloid literature has confused the minds of simple people to accept their fantasy as a correct interpretation of prophecy. It isn't because a beast in the Bible always represents a system an organization or a kingdom. The employment of figurative language in the Bible has been a source of confusion for many - especially those who refuse to accept common definitions of terms as a basis for interpretation. One can NOT reasonably approach a consistent interpretation of Biblical prophecy without the consistent application of definitions.' Can we agree on the application of "beast" as system organization or nation? Can we agree on the application of "horn" as representative of a leader of the beast its attached to? Yes or no? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Lecturing, however futile it may be, is an attempt to transmit accurate knowledge. It is indeed a virtue as every institution of higher learning demonstrates. If the reader has ever attended one he or she will testify that lecturing is a proven and accepted method of teaching. Those that are unfamiliar with education beyond the elementary school level will certainly find lecturing a foreign and unusual process. It is valid nevertheless. * * * In Daniel 7 is related the dream of beasts. In the Bible, beasts ALWAYS represent systems organizations or nations/kingdoms. Here are the four beasts and their representation in history. The great sea is representative of multitudes and peoples and nations and tongues (Revelation 17:15). Four great beasts arise out of the sea in Daniel 7. LION - the first beast described in the dream represents the Neo-Babylonian Empire. This is also linked to the metallic statue wherein Nebuchadnezzar is the top or head or beginning of empires. BEAR - Median Empire. LEOPARD - Persian Empire. TERRIBLE - Selucid Empire. The forth beast isn't described as an animal in the traditional manner, but instead conveys danger and power by means of iron teeth and strength. Nevertheless Daniel does refer to it as a beast, meaning a kingdom. Consistency of interpretation must be preserved if any sense is to be made from prophecy. Rulers and kings, who arise and are described as horns, are in turn supported by their respective systems or kingdoms. Verse 17 states the four beasts are four kings who arise. A king is representative of his kingdom, a representation which continues to this day. A beast is a kingdom. A horn is a leader or king of that kingdom. The images are not interchangeable so much as they are linked to one another. For instance, when an announcement is made that the United States is arriving it is the President of the United States who walks into the room, not 325 million citizens all at once. It is important to keep the standard of interpretation intact so as to avoid confusion. The problem with popular tabloid interpretations today is lack of a qualifying standard. Anyone with a subjective opinion can make a fast buck provided they are good at story telling. Leaders are represented as a horn of the beast, or as you pointed out they may also be given the name of the beast as in Daniel 7:17. The same principle of objective interpretation also applies to politics, which is one reason so many subjective explanations of current events are associated with the lunatic fringe. FINALLY, you seemed to initially agree with me that Daniel's beasts represent kingdoms. Continuing on, you appear to reverse your statement and insist they are men. Your own posts indicate confusion and inconsistency on your part. Which is it? Do you agree with me or are you just being argumentative? My persistence in 'lecturing' is an attempt to clarify terms and interpretations of those terms. They are repeated because they are basic principles of Biblical interpretation. If one can't use basic principles of interpretation in a consistent manner he or she will appear to be confused. Why are you opposed to your own words? Please be consistent with your remarks else the argument will continue - abated only by the censors who constantly peer over our shoulders. I feel the need to lecture so as to explain Biblical prophecy in a meaningful logical fashion. You feel the need to pontificate because of your dogmatic and inconsistent interpretation. Beasts always represent systems organizations or nations while horns out of the beasts head represent men in a role of leadership. Why is this so hard to understand? It's not rocket science, you know. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

YOU DID NOT READ DANIEL 7. "And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom." - Daniel 7:24a How clear does it have to get? Horns represent human leaders that arise out of the beastly kingdom. That's what the words say. Read them. The Bible interprets itself. Read the Bible. You are hung up on preconceptions, forced upon us by tabloid rubbish. The Bible represents beasts as systems, organizations or nations. In Daniel 7 scripture speaks of kingdoms. The horns that arise out of the beast are leaders. The Bible is very specific about this especially in Daniel 7. All you have to do is read the words. Tabloid literature interprets the End Times European power as political. The Bible refers to it as a religious system. The Bible doesn't refer to the EU. Revelation speaks to a religious system, drunk on the blood of the saints. The Catholic church has murdered in excess of 55 million people over its long bloody history. The EU has killed no one. All you have to do is read the words. The Bible interprets itself. All you have to do is read its words - inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16) not the ilk of Hal Lindsey, Jonathan Cahn, Joel Richardson, Jack Van Impe, John Nelson Darby or others all of whom were inspired by money rather than God. The end game of the end times is that the Bible identifies the Roman Catholic church as the sea beast of Revelation 13, the United States is the earth beast created in the image of the sea beast (*) and the Pope as the anti-christ figure head leader - who died and was raised again in its office. Its really quite simple. The problem is that most people who adopt an End Times scenario in their minds don't bother to study the Bible to see what it says about its own prophecies. They prefer to read trash instead because such garbage doesn't require additional study. The Bible always does. Study to show yourself approved. Or don't and look like a fool. (I know you are not and that you are struggling to understand. Beware tabloid lies and seek the truth for yourself.) that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) An image of a thing is a copy of it. For example, a child is the image of its parents. The United States began its history as a Protestant movement. Despite its intimations as being different from Rome, all the Reformation succeeded in doing was changing the jurisdiction of its religious leaders. The Protestant church remains bound at the hip to the Roman Catholic church in every way except apostolic succession. For example, Rome declared Sunday to be the day of worship contrary to the 3rd commandment (Saturday). Protestants happily follow Rome's lead. Daniel says the anti-christ power would seek to change dates and seasons. The EU makes no such claim to religious authority.

In the midst of your worship of Hollywood you forget one primary principle of movie making. Not for nothing is it called Show Bu$iness. The purpose of making movies is to SELL TICKET$, not to convert sinners or inspire saints. The purpose of the Bible epics of the 1950's was to get people to come into the theater and not stay at home watching TV for free. The Bible stories did absolutely nothing to promote repentance, without which no one can be saved, nor did they promote moral Godly living. They were entertainment - nothing less and nothing more. Nothing is more educational to one's faith than the enduring Word of God - stained glass and movies notwithstanding. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the light." John 14:6 The way to God is via Jesus, not Hollywood boulevard and the walk of fame. Scripture is indeed gold. It lasts forever. Movies are cheap celluloid. The material is easily combustable and lasts only a few years until it crumbles away. The themes that entertain populations aren't anywhere close to being silver or bronze. They are closer to bovine excrement than precious metal. Upon what do you base your reality? Comic books and flickering images in a dark room? "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse!” - Matthew 7: 24-27 In case you weren't aware, Hollywood is built in the vicinity of a major earthquake fault. One shiver of the earth and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. The Word of God is permanent and cannot be shaken by anything - including stale popcorn. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Beasts in the Biblical prophecy are NEVER representative of individuals unless specifically stated. Beasts are representative of systems organizations and nations - always. The sea beast of Revelation 13 arises out of the sea, meaning multitudes of people (see Revelation 17). The leader is a horn that arises out of the beasts' head. Leaders always arise out of an organization, not the other way around. Your concept of the beast as a man is derived from tabloid novelizations of prophecy meant to garner money from ignorant readers, not to support truth. To get truth one must study the Bible, not TV preachers. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Unbelievably stupid interpretation of scripture. In Daniel as well as Revelation a beast is representative of a system, organization or nation. In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of the sea. Revelation 17 defines the waters as being 'nations and multitudes and peoples'. Therefore the beast, which is further defined as a religious organization, arises out of a population of people. The image of a thing is a representative copy of the original. A child is the image of its parents. The earth beast described in Revelation is the image, or copy, of the sea beast. As the sea beast arises out of a huge population of people the earth beast, a copy, arises out of barrenness. The Bible nowhere suggests robotic technology, holograms or sci fi special effects. It speaks to organizations, systems and nations and the populations that support them. Read your Bible. You will not get proper interpretation of scripture from comic books or Hollywood movies. READ THE BIBLE. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The common definition of pestilence is of infectious disease. An uncommon reference may also be stupidity, which appears to have infected Americans long before Coronavirus appeared on the scene. I refer here to those inconsiderate fools who don't inoculate themselves or their children. Thus it grants them the ability to infect innocent members of the community with their diseases - the fruit of their stupidity. The Biblical usage of 'pestilence' suggests a divine visitation for the purpose of judgment. In either case, the definitions also apply to Americans. Divine visitation of judgment also consists of the delusion that prevention of disease is a bad thing. Stupidity is not a virtue. That too appears to be a form of pestilence in the USA. The nation has turned its back upon God who alone can save us from many things that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

OK. You asked for it - Rapture it is. Blind acceptance of false doctrine like the rapture isn't weak, it's an exercise in stupidity of which American Christians boast a monopoly. Snake-oil salesmen, like Hal Lindsay, write copious novelizations about the poof doctrine and End Times events. All of it is for profit, not prophet. Case in point is that Mr. Lindsey took profit$ from his early work and built a home in California near the San Andreas fault line. Does the reader know the significance of the San Andreas fault and its relation to Mr. Lindsey's frequent dire predictions of the future? The man doesn't believe his own tripe, yet he continues to produce it because fools buy it - figuratively as well as literally. The modern form of the rapture isn't promoted anywhere in the Bible. It's a doctrine of cowards and fools who refuse sound teaching. Does it matter that the Master Himself said it wouldn't happen? Certainly not. Fools, taking direction from satan, call God a liar and claim it doesn't apply to them. Quoting Jesus on the subject is an effort ignored by pretentious types that attend worship (on the wrong day) and agree or disagree amongst themselves on the details of an illegitimate and confused dogma. Nevertheless I'll quote Christ once again. ""I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 Which part of NOT do rapturists NOT understand? Jesus' prayer is consistent with Biblical context, which is one of courage in the face of potential disaster. Did God poof the Hebrews out of danger when they stood with the Red Sea before them and pharaoh's army behind them? NO. Moses encouraged them with words of faith followed by a deliverance that allowed them to WALK through to safety. Did God send Captain Kirk to beam Daniel out of trouble when he was thrown into the lion's den? NO. God stood with Daniel in the midst of potential death and dismemberment and saw the prophet through it? The same is true for Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, who stood at the edge of the fiery furnace and faced death with stout hearts. God walked with them that day IN AND THROUGH the fire. The Bible is full of examples and statements of courage from cover to cover. God WILL be with those who have faith in Him. God laughs at fools who are expecting a vertical deliverance that will never come. (Prov 1:26) "Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil." - Psalm 23:4a King David meant the above words to be a source of courage and direction in the midst of trouble/tribulation. The coward seeks a way out. The courageous believer takes God at His word and relies upon his own courage and God's promise to deliver as the believer walks through it, NOT FLIES from it as cowards do. "It is time for judgment to begin in the house of God;" - 1 Peter 4:17 Today modern Christians have believed the lie of a 19th century spiritualist (John Nelson Darby), a consort of witches, and embraced a cowardly doctrine that provides not a dot of courage to see anyone through the trials and tribulations of life. THEREFORE GOD HAS JUDGED THE CHURCH AND ALLOWED THEM TO BELIEVE THE LIE. They shall stumble in their SIN and surrender to the clouds in their mind - knowing nothing of God's will for them. When asked to defend their false doctrine, rapturists will usually point to a passage in Luke so as to justify their idiocy. Consider it again for the first time; "It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind..... I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” - Luke 17:30-31 & 34-37 The key point of the rapture is that some folks will be taken out of the world in the flick of an eye. These fools assume they are saintly types who will enjoy early excusal from tribulation. Stupid is as stupid does and none of them, absolutely none of them, actually READS the Word of God and interprets its' words in a logical fashion. Read it again, losers. The people who are TAKEN do NOT go to heaven. They DO NOT ascend into the clouds for a dinner with Jesus at a heavenly Golden Corral. THEY GO TO HELL. Read it again. Where do they go? They go to the place of the dead. Carcass is a dead body and the place of the dead is littered with carcasses. Vultures doesn't describe cute little pink angels with harps. The passage describes DEMONS OF HELL. Read it and try to learn something. Please. Because the church has become a community of fools who justify their delusion with religious slogans and empty buzz words (and do NOT rely upon experts), God has given them over to a depraved mind. The church now embraces all sorts of wickedness and SIN. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie - 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Welcome to the leadership of satan, ye church. Will you stiffen your necks, as the ancient Hebrews once did and suffered residence in the wilderness of SIN for the rest of their natural lives, or will you REPENT. Now is the time for us all to repent of our sins and wickedness. And so I declare with all good courage that God will provide to all who come to Him for it..... BRING ON THE TRIBULATION, BABY. God will be with us to WALK THROUGH it. Cowards who hope to fly out of it will end up IN HELL. That's Jesus talking, not me. If that thought upsets you I suggest you fall to your knees and repent of your cowardly foolishness and abandon the doctrine of the rapture forever. Jesus did. So should you. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your retort that you doubt the efficacy of scholars isn't unusual. Most Christians today prefer to stand on the ground of Biblical illiteracy to defend an illogical and uninformed opinion. Question: If you doubt the studied opinion of those who've delved deeper into history culture and Biblical narrative than you, then what criteria do you use to justify your own subjective, albeit uninformed attitude? Do YOU study the Bible? Do you know how to do so? Do you read it from time to time or do you rely upon religious slogans and buzz words (as the majority of intellectually lazy Christians prefer to do)? [*] Again, I'm not accusing you personally. Your words are consistent with many Christians who don't have a clue what they're talking about, but they're absolutely certain of it nonetheless. Do you see a person who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. - Proverbs 23:12 Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. - Proverbs 15:22 According to the Bible, inspired by God, one's own opinion is a dry well. It is foolish to rely upon it. According to the Bible, inspired by God, an appeal to many experts is a good idea. In the American church everyone is wise in his own eyes. That's why Christians are regarded as a pack of fools these days. None will take good teaching to heart and few walk in wisdom. The foundations of the church rest upon sand. (Matt 7:24-27) The rest of the structure has corrupted itself and is rotten to its bones. It's like a shredded flag whipped by storm winds that will soon blow away what remains of its recognizable design. Set emotions aside and dig into the issues? You've already testified you don't accept what is 'dug up'. I have already provided evidence for my statement of the fatal head wound to the beast and its miraculous recovery. What additional documentation do you require? Your attitude suggests you only want to argue. You aren't interested in facts figures or logical conclusions at all. To that end I can only advise you to do your own homework - or not - as the case may be. Most folks who go about in denial of scholarly opinion do so because they despise truth. (John 3:19) I'm glad we agree on Darby. That's a good thing. Few would agree with either of us on that point. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... [*] Reliance upon religious slogans and buzz words are fine for greeting cards and poor back-woods preachers who want to make a living in the god-business, but it's extremely DANGEROUS with regard to cohesion of the gospel message. It's impossible to defend Christianity against encroachment of heretical religious systems like Islam when buzz words and slogans can so easily be adapted by them so as to attack the gospel. I have also studied Islam and was shocked recently when I sat in a Baptist congregation and listened to the sermon of a substitute preacher who quoted Muslim principles to support his theme. Members of the congregation sat in their seats and bobbed their heads - ignorant of the fact the man had succeeded in subverting the gospel in their hearing. Stupidity is not a virtue.

Not off topic. AGAIN, your posts are all over the place and not focused at all. I attempted to address a single issue. You are unclear about my response and reacted against it without consideration - a clear indication you speak from dogma and not from study. Since you are unwilling or unable to follow my explanation, allow me to go to the nut of the issue - the post modern heresy of the rapture. Rapturists, of which you appear to be one, exhibit considerable confusion about their vertical fantasies. They don't even agree with each other about when their supposed poof event is supposed to happen. For instance, scripture indicates the advent of the Christ will happen three times. [1] One has already happened and two are in human future. Rapturists are unable to correctly formulate or agree amongst themselves as to when their cloud party will happen - advent #1.5, #2, #2.5 or #3? Heretical interpretations abound and no rapture fan is really certain of a party line on this issue. They are all very certain of their uncertainty. What actually will or will not happen is outside the realm of accepted thought to them. It's outside and beyond their understanding because they are hung up on DOGMA, not plain text of scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:33 says God is not the author of confusion. Rapturists are confused about their dogma because it doesn't come from God. What follows is an example, taken from Luke 17:20-37 description of the coming of the kingdom. First, though, let's look at Matthew 3:12. It describes the process of harvesting the saints and cutting out the tares. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire. - John the Immerser as quoted by Matthew 3:12 John is telling us here that two groups of people will be dealt with separately. Sinners will be collected, taken to an unknown location, and destroyed. The Just, described here as useful wheat, will be collected into the Master's barn. A similar description of the judgement of humans is told by Jesus as related in the gospel of Luke. "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left. Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” - Jesus as quoted by Luke 17:34-37 Rapturists take the above portion of scripture out of context, not to glean truth but to justify their heretical version of Judgment Day - to justify their false ascension. They do NOT read what the scripture really says. Read it again for the first time. Who is taken and who is left? Rapturists would have the world believe it's a good thing to be "taken", but they don't read to the end of Jesus' story (or John's). Those who are "taken" go to a place of refuse, a dump, to gehenna also called the Lake of Fire or the Second Death. Read the last words. Do they speak of a banquet in the clouds surrounded by angels or do they speak of rotting dead bodies and demonic creatures? THINK, MAN. What do the words actually say? Does proper interpretation require substitution of lies and innuendo for clear and simple language? Read the words. They say that those who are left upon the earth are the blessed of God. Post modern Christians have chosen to believe the dogma of a 19th century spiritualist, who was the consort of witches [2], rather than the Bible. Clear language, interpreted clearly and simply, results in truth - however uncomfortable that may be. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... [1] Jesus is described as messiah. Messiah means "anointed one". Only three types of men were anointed in the Bible; prophets, priests, and kings. Jesus came to us two thousand years ago as a prophet with healing and good news in His hand. He will come the second time as priest - as judge of mankind. He will come the third time as king to rule the earth with a rod of iron. [2] John Nelson Darby, the father of modern Dispensationalism and the author of the Rapture heresy as we know it today.

I don't know you. I cannot have a problem with you personally because of that lack of personal contact. I do, however, have problems with your logic references accusations and assumptions. Your perspective is erratic and uninformed with regard to accepted scholarly method and interpretation (not unusual for post modern Christians, btw). Your attack upon me, saying I was lying about the events of the head injury and healing of the beast, is that of ignorance and presupposition arising from a flawed frame of reference. For instance, when you asked about "age" I assume you were referring to the vagaries of Dispensationalism as formulated by John Nelson Darby, a heretic of the 19th century. Darby attempted to interpret history in the form of "ages" as in the "church age", "age of grace" as in Supersessionism and as in a flawed and confused idea of the End Times among other "ages". In point of fact, there is no separation of ages as man defines them. The Bible indicates a divine aggressive refinement of redemption. There is no basic difference between how a man got saved in the days of King David and today - according to the LAW. Once again, I apologize for misunderstanding your confusion on the subject. I didn't dare address your other concerns because I knew you wouldn't get to first base on the first discussion. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

DID YOU READ MY POST AT ALL, because your post reads more like a knee-jerk response than anything approaching thoughtful consideration? AGAIN - your post was a mess. I responded to only one issue because of lack of space - and it looks as though my own post was wasted on your refusal to accept wisdom. AGAIN - when the Bible uses textual imagery of an animal, as in Revelation 13's beast, it is speaking to a system an organization or a nation. Consult ANY scholarly work on the subject and you'll find most of them agree on this definition/interpretation. When the Bible speaks to a beast it is speaking to a system, organization or nation. Look it up. Learn something. Your reference above to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a reference to a man - not beast, not system, not organization and not a nation. AGAIN, the "man" of lawLESSness arises out of a religious system. Revelation 13 says so. You say differently? You are WRONG. This man is described in Revelation as seeking to CHANGE times and dates (as when he changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, as when he changed most Jewish holidays and God-ordained observances to another day another name and changed names as in Christmas and Easter, which are now commercialized pagan holidays no longer even a shadow of religious significance). The statements about the fatal wound to the head of the beast DID HAPPEN as I related. [*] Did you look it up? It's true. Deal with it. You speak of the age of Jesus' return? Exactly what age would that be according to your expertise? I have a question to ask of you, since you are hung up on ages. WHICH AGE OF JESUS' RETURN ARE YOU REFERRING TO? According to the Bible Jesus will come to earth THREE TIMES. The Hebrew word "messiah" or more correctly "ha-mashiach" means 'the anointed one'. Look it up - unless you're afraid to learn something. Open your Bible and try to learn what sort of men were anointed. There were three types: prophet, priest and king. Jesus came the first time as prophet with healing and good news in His hand. Jesus will come the second time as priest with judgment as his office. (tribulation era) Jesus will come the third and final time to rule as king. (at the absolute end of human rule on this planet) Jewish priests had a problem with Jesus' first appearance because they assumed He would come as king. They wanted a warrior to liberate them from Roman occupation - on the order of Judah Maccabee. Instead they got a prophet on the order of Ezekiel. They, like Protestants today, couldn't see the difference because of their lack of orderly scholarship. They, like many Protestants today, FIRST formulate a doctrine and then use scripture to shore up their weak argument - INSTEAD OF - digging through the Bible to glean truth as a result of what scripture says. Instead, Christians follow their religious celebrities and lazily depend upon them to tell them what to think. Jews didn't see the vast gulf of time between the prophecies of arrival of prophet and king. They didn't consider an advent of a priestly judge either because they thought they owned that office themselves. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Man, you are all over the place with misconceptions and misinterpretations. You are using scripture to support religious slogans and buzz words - pure hokum. To point out just one of the major difficulties you are having with interpretation, I need to rectify your definition of THE BEAST. I refer the readers here to Revelation 13 where the beast and its primary horn, or leader is featured. THE BEAST is not a man. That's something cooked up by Christian novelists and people who haven't read the Bible. A prophetic beast always indicates a system, organization or nation. The horn of the beast in Revelation 13 is a man, or more properly an office held by a man who in turn is an officer within the confines of a religious system. Revelation makes it perfectly clear the Beast is a religious system. Rev 13:1 says the Beast rises out of the sea. What's the sea? The Bible interprets itself in Revelation 17:15 “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." The Beast is a religious system that arises out of a massive number of people. Got it? The small horn that rises out of the beast is the Pope. In Revelation 13:6 is stated that the Beast would open its mouth and utter blaspheme against God. To be guilty of Blaspheme one must claim to be God. The Roman Catholic church has officially stated that the Pope is God on earth. Therefore the Catholic church commits blaspheme when it claims the Pope is God. The very words of anti-Christ as predicted by the Bible two thousand years ago. "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous” In verse 13:3 is stated that one of the heads of the beast would suffer a mortal wound, while later in verse 12 the mortal head wound is healed. In 1798, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and put him in prison where he died two years later. All the Catholic real estate in Rome was confiscated. <-- fatal wound In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was commissioned by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. The treaty restored 110 acres of real estate in Rome as Vatican City and made it a sovereign city-state. The Pope was restored to his religious office of leadership of all Roman Catholics worldwide (the sea of people). <--- the fatal head wound of the anti-Christ was healed. There's a great deal more correction to be made to your post, but this is by way of fixing a little of it. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quite simply - nothing at all, sir. I'm responding to the question at the head of this thread, "What arguments do you use for God's existence?" You may respond or not, as you choose. You are not headmaster here. You do not dictate the terms of the discussion or the direction it may take. I've made my argument for the existence of God. In addition I outlined how such belief is opposed or accepted as well as the logical problems with each assertion. These are matters of fact. If my methods are not palatable to you, that is your problem not mine. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Evidence for God is consistent with objective data - mathematical operation/intelligent design of the known universe, testimony of millions of people, historic records, accuracy and truth of Holy Scripture, and unchanging values of Mosaic LAW. MY POINT is that scoffers utilize subjective opinion to deny the reality of God. Present day subjective (changeable) opinion originated with the Enlightenment and takes two forms. The first form is hedonism while the second form is denial of the divine inspiration and veracity of scripture. Obtuse references to science are used to justify illogical assumptions and conclusions that God does not exist. If God doesn't exist, then neither does a divine spark exist in man, which in turn provides political justification for infanticide, euthanasia, and genocide. I SUPPORTED my assertion by stating that science has degenerated into a profiteering false religion which now embraces an inconsistent method for weighing and measuring the physical world. Appeals to science to justify anti-religious attitudes are therefore inadequate to the task. Those who defer to pseudo-science to justify disbelief also appeal to philosophical illogic and confusion so as to create an artificial environment within which personal faith in the personal God (as well as morality) can be assaulted by the academic community and those who do not respect the rights of others (or due process of law). The consequence of our failed educational system has resulted in a generation of students who cannot and will not reason. "It hurts to think," as a they've told a high school teacher I know. When a generation is taught to react without reason they are fit for nothing less than robotic allegiance to an autocratic government and a society that respects neither God nor human life. THE ISSUE isn't adequate proofs or explanations, sir. The issue is suppression of them. I believe I've made my initial points clear enough. If you cannot or will not understand the manipulative nature of philosophical argument and its religious cousin (apologetics), then I refer you to that department of your nearest library and/or seminary. Courses are offered in seminaries and Bible colleges that teach manipulation. (I've been there & done that too.) Apologetics and propaganda (*) are primary tools of the curriculum - NOT scripture. My purpose is and was to contrast the defective nature of philosophy used either to support religion or to oppose it as contrasted with the objective nature of Mosaic LAW. The house of American society now stands on shifting sands that are being washed away beneath us even as we argue amongst ourselves. It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness. Perhaps we may find individual forgiveness from the merciful hand of God. It's too late for our country. Judgment is already upon us. A religious slogan mindless puppets like to quote is that, "God is able". The intent of the quote is to imply God will bless us and our country even when we sin. I submit that "God is able" also to judge, which indeed HE is in the process of doing - proof positive that there is indeed a God of justice. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Religious propaganda is here defined as religious slogans and buzz words, few of which may be found in the Bible.

I have big problems with Christian apologists like Strobel. For the most part their rhetoric is intended to manipulate rather than to instruct - to resort to clever philosophical anecdotes rather than references to Mosaic LAW. Christian apologetics has degenerated into an intellectual chess game where words and phrases are employed to counter a debaters assertion rather than to instruct. The really good ones, like Ravi Zacharias, have a wide philosophical background and are entertaining to watch. They use clever philosophical phrases to counter an opponents' argument or to back their opponent into a corner. The really inept ones, like Kirk Cameron, are embarrassing to watch. Despite Kirks' sincerity the poor man hasn't a clue as to what he's doing. Arguments pro and con concerning God and creationism are usually based upon philosophy. Atheist philosophy grew out of the European Enlightenment and relies upon the new religion of science to validate their assertions whether those arguments are true or not. Additionally they rely upon secular hedonism and a general admission by current Christian leaders that the Bible is NOT the inspired Word of God. Therefore, passages of the Bible aren't accepted as a form of validation for any philosophical argument by either atheists or Christian apologists. This is why certain atheists now refuse to engage a Christian apologist in debate. It's also why Zacharias is so good at using philosophy to make a point and why Cameron is so terribly bad at it. Ravi doesn't rely upon scripture to make his point. Cameron does, but he's not an accomplished scholar and consequently falls on his face when he uses it. Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse! - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:24-27 The parable of the spiritual real estate debacle is an example of the relationship between differing schools of thought. One method is philosophy and the other is the LAW of Moses. Philosophy changes like the wind. Today one thing is popular and tomorrow it's out - replaced by an upgraded version. This is equivalent to a life, or house, built upon shifting sand. One cannot build one's life upon changing values or goals. Before the goal is reached someone changes it on you and all your efforts are for nothing. The house built on solid rock is tantamount to a value system built upon God's unchangeable LAW. Philosophy changes, but the LAW does not. Some things never change and the LAW is one of them. I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it. - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17 Despite the popular Christian phrase 'saved by grace not law', Jesus did NOT destroy the LAW. Everything God has established in it still stands. Christians are notoriously opposed to Jews and Jewish LAW and claim it leads to legalism. Even as they reject God's LAW they establish their own legalism and fall into the same trap ancient Israel once did. Legalism, whether its Christian or Jewish won't save anybody. It is nothing less than overt rebellion against God and satanic lawLESSness. Science is no longer based on physical laws. Its based upon philosophy. Few know this truth, but it is being forced upon students in the halls of our universities. I retired from one, so I know the game plan. Textbook publishers change their books every year. This results in confusion and extra work for instructors and the inability of students to sell their old books for money. The trend is getting worse. A friend of mine, who was an instructor in our chemistry department, confided to me that publishers are even working to alter the Periodic Table of Elements to such a degree that it can be edited every year - thus requiring newer more expensive textbooks to be purchased by students. Science doesn't get more basic than the Periodic Table, but its being changed as often as secular philosophy. Publisher profit is the motivation, but the result is the same - intellectual and spiritual darkness. When intelligent design is promoted the certainty of God's mind is argued. What isn't argued is the method by which He performs it - the hand of God so to speak. His 'hand' as it were, is the LAW. I submit to the reader that without this actionable component no divine purpose can be ascertained. Is there a purpose to God's plan and work? Philosophy does not know. Science is silent because it can only watch. Christianity is mute - silenced by self-imposed Biblical illiteracy. The LAW gives us a pattern by which God designed the heavens (all three), what He expects of us and how He plans to implement the redemption of man. Christians deny the LAW and as a result have no idea what their religion is about. They stumble about in the darkness of their own confusion looking for answers in religious legalism and find nothing. Apart from the LAW there is nothing to discover. The face and hand of God remain hidden to them. The church thus falls into a kind of hypocritical obfuscation and cannot successfully mount an argument against atheistic philosophy. Both wander in the darkness of their own minds and neither knows the nature of truth. The atheist denies it exists and the Christian mingles it with hedonistic deceit. Both wander without purpose and neither can claim hope apart from their own slogans and buzz words. It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness and to humble ourselves before God - who IS able to execute curses as well as blessings. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...