Marcus O'Reillius

Oh, I did say that. Political debate GOTCHA? Yeah, so what. It doesn't change the underlying point I made. But I did not say that they SAW the Lord, which is what I think you're trying to imply. This is the version I read: "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;" So I looked at what you said, and because I was not implying that they "saw" God but rather that they could not face Him, they cannot withstand His Presence, and found this relevant portion of the verse where they did reference Him. They know - because they have been told by the third Angel of Rev 14 - that God is coming for them! HOWEVER! They do NOT KNOW God, nor do they even infinitesimally understand what He is going to do NEXT! What God is fixin' to do NEXT - is the Harvest gathering of the Elect in Rev 14:14-16 which is just like 1Th 4:17 and Mt 24:31.

The purpose of the trumpet blast is singular. Jesus blows the named, assembly Trumpet. An Angel blows the numbered, announcement Trumpet. Spin as you like, you have not addressed this central set of facts which differentiates the two.

No, I didn't say that at all. I admit nothing of the sort. Where do you get that? They don't even say that in the Bible... Look, if you want to teach that ~ well! You're on own! I presume nothing! I deduced it, and I stand by it. Your protestations, and you seem to have some personal problem with what I post, do not include any specific reason to refute the parallel account construction found within the book of Revelation. To whit, if you think the whole thing is over as per Revelation 11:13, and 11:18-19 BEFORE the first half of the one 'seven' in Revelation 13:5 and the one 'seven's midpoint at Revelation 13:14-15, well then, you certainly have one of the strangest ways of interpreting the book of Revelation I've ever heard! So staff, please note: WilliamL is no longer a member in good standing of the Marcus O'Reillius Fan Club, and we won't be sending him a Christmas card this year.

Because it conveys a bit of information which is important. It is part of the protection afforded the "woman" which figuratively is Israel in chapter 12's dual parallel accounts, and she represents the Remnant Jews God says actually survive the wholesale (ALL) death and destruction which awaits man in the end-times. Context-context-context. In the book of Revelation, we have parallel accounts. Many divide the book because it cannot be read like a novel from end to end as one account. So what I do is not new. What I do, which is different, is to look for a change of both scene and focus to differentiate different, parallel accounts. The break from the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) to chapter 12 takes us from a scene at the end of the one 'seven' after everything is over, and we go "back" to the time of the birth of Christ on earth. Likewise, we go from focusing on unsealing and what happens afterward with the Scroll, which I think contains the desolations God has decreed from long ago as told in Daniel 9:26. The twin aspect of Revelation 12 is that we then go back to the time of Christ in 12:7 - which I think is the aftermath of the Father's role of Judge in admonishing -twice- Satan in his role as prosecutor in Zechariah 3:1-8. I think there is simply no place for Satan in Heaven with the Risen Lord. The two cannot coexist in one place together; they are in complete opposition and the later has been twice-over rebuked. While everyone predominately puts Satan's fall in 12:7 very close time-wise to the "end," I would note that for an immortal being, 2,000 years, is but a couple of days. AND I would note that the active persecution of the Jews began soon afterward even by our time frame and has continued for all of these 2,000 years. Now going back to parallel accounts, the period of one-half of the one 'seven' found in Rev 12:14 is the same period of protection found in Rev 12:6. Both accounts, the first focusing on Israel, and the second focusing on the dragon Satan - end up being the same. They are set in parallel. Furthermore, by putting together a sequence-of-events (a thread I am locked out of, but still available for reading) I determined this half of the one 'seven' relates to the second half. So getting to context ~ when we start chapter 13, the half here is found in 13:5 is set BEFORE the midpoint abomination revealed as the talking image of the beast of a man - the anti-Christ. This time shift manifests a change of scene. Likewise, the focus shifts from the dragon Satan, to the beast-of-a-nation and the beast-of-a-man. The dragon of Rev 16:13 is not the same dragon as Satan, unless you want to say that Satan himself can be possessed by a still greater, more evil spirit. No, I think the dragon of Rev 16:13 relates to the fourth terrible beast-of-a-nation first shown in 13:2 and later in the explanatory chapter of Rev 17 with the Harlot. This is a long-winded explanation to say that I view Revelation 13-16 as one narrative: the detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the full range of the end-times presented with the Seal/Scroll chronology. Rev 13-16 details the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in the one 'seven'. God is the best story-teller after all. _______________________________________________________ Now with that said, Revelation 13 chronicles the first half of the one 'seven' leading up to the midpoint abomination: the talking image. In addition, we see WHY the Great Tribulation, which Jesus told us happens right after that in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:15-31, is so terrible for the Elect. WHEN we move to chapter 14, what we are seeing here is God's Response. Absent is any mention of God's First Responders: the Two Witnesses. That was already covered in the "Sidebar Account" of Rev 11:1-13. However! We DO see a replication of two aspects of the sixth Seal from the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology: the 144,000 AND the Harvest which results in the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17. Additional information is provided by the revelation of three Angels. The FIRST Angel completes the condition Jesus gave in the opening broad overview of the end in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:4-14 ~ The gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. And I think that "end" He is referring to relates to the end of the Church Age: the ability for the selection of souls based upon their faith in Him. The THIRD Angel tells the world what will become of them who worship the beast or took his mark. This bit of information in Rev 14:6-11 gives the reason WHY the "kings of the earth" etc, etc, KNEW Jesus was coming for them so as to compel them to save their own skin by hiding deep underground in Rev 6:15-17. AFTER the three Angels proceed- then we get to the Harvest, which again, I think is the end of the Church Age. Now, some might beg difference that chapter 14 is not consecutive with 13 based on scene and focus. However, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus goes from the midpoint abomination to the shortened Great Tribulation to the gathering of the Elect as one narrative. Likewise, when viewed within the context of the one 'seven' a sequence-of-events approach in analysis provides, I see a differentiation of action whereby chapters 14-16 chronicle the FALL of the anti-Christ. So there are two different halves of the one 'seven' with two different outcomes. __________________________________________________________ Now that I have laid a basis for my context, and it's not easy, but then neither is the book of Revelation: here is my answer: . When we move past the Harvest, God's Wrath starts immediately with a second Angel appearing with a sickle. This is part of the Wrath of God which ALSO occurs ON the Day of the Lord. This Wrath is perfectly aligned with the first Trumpet in the Seal/Scroll account in that is deals out fire and blood. These are two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath found in the OT. (Smoke is the third.) In chapter 15, we see a quick advancement to the last of God's Wrath: the Bowl or Vial Judgments. The preceding Trumpets are omitted; that information has already been provided. We can "fit" the second through sixth Trumpet in and now we can see what the Third Woe might have been as announced by a mighty Angel and the seventh Trumpet: The seven Bowls or Vials. In this whole time - which is part of the second half of the one 'seven' - the woman Israel is protected. Remember her? From chapter 12, we know she is protected. Jesus also implored those in Judea to flee at the midpoint abomination; they would be the initial cadre of the Remnant. In Zechariah 14:5, a second contingent of Jews escape Jerusalem when Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives.; this would be an addition to the initial cadre. These refugees are hidden by God as indicated in Isaiah 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them. It is in this light that I look to Rev 16:15. Now "coming like a thief" is not specific, nor unique. It is descriptive. Jesus comes like a thief on the Day of the Lord. He "steals" the most valuable thing in all the world right out from under the thumb of Satan and the ant-Christ: US, the Elect. The ones they are trying to eradicate, and would have (or will have?) had not God the Father intervened in setting this Day so that the Bridegroom no longer "tarries." Jesus comes like a thief on the Day of the Lord's Wrath. His Army climbs over walls and through windows, which is also what a thief does. Jesus also comes like a thief to the Remnant Jews that God protects through the second half of the one 'seven' in Rev 12:6, 14, and 16:15 - He comes unexpectedly. They are "blind" because they do not yet "see" Jesus as Christ. Had they, they would have been rescued with the Harvest. Still, God knows their heart and He will not forsake them because of it. So they must "make it" for 1335 days to His Millennium Reign and so have the veil of Moses lifted from their eyes and then Zechariah 12:10 will be accomplished! (...so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him...) NOTICE: those who are not clothed - are not kicked out of the wedding ceremony nor are they locked out of the house! They continue WITH everyone else, and only suffer the shame of being seen naked. This is not like what happens to the tares of the field who are left behind when the Harvest comes to suffer destruction. ______________________________________________ The great day of God is language John uses which can be interpreted as the Day of the Lord. After all, that Day is great to us, and Jesus is fully God. However, the triumphant conclusion of the one 'seven' is not called the "Day of the Lord" by John. He makes this distinction. IF it were the same - I think he would have called it so, but he doesn't. There are TWO battles which are said to happen ON the Day of the Lord. The first in Jerusalem, and the second in the Valley of Decision. Scholars peg this second location to Jehoshaphat to a area around Jerusalem. Armageddon, or better, Har Megiddo is a broad plain in the hill country of Ephraim around the mountain (Har) Megiddo. It is an important battlefield from the time of ancient Israel and where they scored significant victories over the nations. It is THIS area which is the site of the final battle of the one 'seven' which concludes all war as per Daniel 9:26. This final battle, which Jesus and His Army prepare to go out to do battle from Heaven with the sound of the cheering from a Great Multitude - is a fixture of the Epilogue of Revelation in chapter 19, beginning the final parallel account of that book. The Day of the Lord is fought around Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The great day of God is fought at Armageddon. The two are not named the same, nor are their battle fought in the same area. ______________________________________________ Thus, Rev 16:15 does not concern the Elect, nor is it indicative of the Harvest which was previously accomplished BEFORE God's Wrath goes forward. In a Pre-Wrath model, Rev 16:15 concerns the Remnant Jews God marshals through the utter destruction upon the earth which occurs during the second half of the one 'seven.' I'm sorry for the long-winded answer, but your question was sincere, and it deserves a full answer. Thank-you for your time in reading all this.

Oh, for crying out loud. Shofars do NOT play NOTES. This whole criticism is a non-sequitur and a fallacy in argument. I am amazed how much you "know" about what I know! Such an attribute is usually reserved only for God! What lengths you will go to win an argument! This is the worst feature about these message boards - when one side attempts to "trump" (I love that pun, especially after the debate last night) the other side with some senseless side issue where they think they have the other side off-balance. So some little crack that they perceive becomes the whole focus for saying "GOTHCHA!" and they "win" by default. Nothing could be further from the truth - and as Christians, we ought to be concerned about getting to the heart of the matter: Is the Last Trumpet the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath? By many measures, we can say they are not. Now to your silly criticism. Modern trumpets are not shofars. A modern bugle has about four tones varying on the way the sounder purses his lips and the initial pitch he uses on the mouthpiece; a feature lacking in simple, natural animal horns, reeds, and wooden tubes, commonly used to make trumpets in ancient times. In the OT, the silver trumpets had a mouthpiece. This is an advancement in trumpet making over natural horns, yet all available information from that time, is that they did not employ notes in their signalling. In the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance, trumpet making advanced to where they could actually play "music" of a sort, (which is not what we're used to at all) and still, these natural trumpets were very limited in range. The advancement in technology coming into the Industrial Age of a reed allowed better vibration so as to make notes, and then the circular reed came into play - all before the addition of tubing, valves and slides to vary the length of the tube, so that actual notes in a chromatic scale can be played. Biblically: Trumpet blasts were not differentiated by tone. This is because they lacked the modernization we have come to know. In ancient times, as in when the Bible was written, the Priests used TWO different lengths of breath to differentiate the blasts. But the whole litany of modern Jewish worship has doubled to a whooping FOUR. That's it. And NONE of them differentiate on tone, even though there is a slight variation in tone available in the start (and end) of each sounding. These variations are not variable in pitch like a bugle which can produce four distinct notes ~ so it is not surprising that they aren't used. They are simply too close to the primary tone to be discernible. We're not talking about modern trumpets. We're talking about the Last Trumpet and the seven Trumpets which are revealed when the Scroll is finally unsealed. While Moses designed the two silver Trumpets, which were fixed in length and had no reed system (but did have a separate mouthpiece) - they were also "tuned" to sound the same. This tuning is done in the manufacturing because length and diameter are key to the pitch of the natural (not modern) trumpet. Now we don't know if the seven Trumpets the seven Angels blow are silver or not. The Bible is silent on this. Likewise, we don't know how the Last Trumpet is a Shofar or not as well. So we can't differentiate on that basis. We can say though, on the basis of how any ancient single metal trumpet or shofar was made - that any single trumpet could NOT play different notes! However, we can still differentiate on WHO blows the Trumpet AND the PURPOSE of the Trumpet blast. What you have tried to muddy, and are not deflecting is that any trumpet signal, no matter what its blast pattern is, is SINGULAR. THUS: Jesus and the Angels differentiate WHO blows their respective Trumpets, and the PURPOSE: His is an assembly Trumpet and theirs is an announcement Trumpet. And modern trumpets range of notes has NOTHING to do with it. So much for your "GOTCHA."

I don't trust the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, who are hiding from the face of Lord because the third Angel tells them He is coming for them - to tell me at that specific point what is actually happening. They are on the wrong side of God and they "get God wrong!" (Job 42:7b ...the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.") It is important to "get" God right, and the wicked NEVER DO. So why would you trust them to give an accurate assessment of what part of God's Plan in the end-times is happening at the moment they are in hiding? I DO TRUST the 24 Elders to accurately relay what has happened at the end of the one 'seven'.

I don't have one on the short list of what I study. Mostly, I look at linear narratives along my sequence-of-events analysis approach. I do not focus on single words so much. I am wary of using a simple word search to link Scripture together: context-context-context. To that, I had to go to the Jewish Festivals and study them. The Last Trumpet is blown on Rosh ha-Shannah. I took his reference to be indicative a "pointing" to an "Appointed Time" (which is what "Festival" means) which also is referred to in Jewish literature and study as "The Returning Anew" ~ I think that is a wonderful term which they unknowingly use which also points to what we await: Jesus' Coming. The Last Trumpet is one of two shofars made from the Adekah ram used on the previous Yom Kippur sacrifice. The First Trumpet is blown on the next Festival of First Fruits. The Last Trumpet is blown on the next Festival of Trumpets. They are bookends to the growing season. To me, eschatologically, they are also the bookends to the Church Age. That is a great reference, and not one I have used previously. I will use it in the future. Thank-you! Zechariah has SO MUCH to say about the end times! However! What he says is, like much of Isaiah, NOT in linear narrative form. So the problem with using Prophets besides Daniel for me in my study, is that they rarely form long, linear narratives with specific and unique events so as to include them in the formation of my Pre-Wrath eschatology, which again, I base on a blended sequence-of-events so as to form a holistic outline chronicling the end-times. This approach, mirrored by another Pre-Wrath adherent, Cameron Fultz, in his book: Prophecy's Architecture - does not incorporate all the sundry and various passages in the Prophets besides Daniel. Daniel's book, however, is part of the basic column and beam structure with which I base my resultant outline. Isaiah and Zechariah then "flesh out" the framework provided by the book of Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, the book of Daniel, and Paul's letters on eschatology. I simply cannot put together a holistic timeline of the end-times based on Isaiah and Zechariah and/or other Prophets because their visions are so disjointed. However, they provide great detailed insight once a basic framework structure is in place. I like the opening to this particular passage: Zec 9:11 As for you also, because of the blood of My covenant with you, ~ has SIGNIFICANT implication for US because we wash our robes clean in the Blood of the Lamb. Yes, I think there is. I look to the Great Trumpet of Isaiah which I peg to the aspect of Yom Kippur when the "Atonement", or as one Jewish author puts it: the "At one moment", when the Lord assembles the Remnant and the Meek who do survive the one 'seven'. I am not alone in looking at this as the third named Trumpet of God.

I don't think you understand what I understand. You cannot show God's Wrath upon the earth at the sixth Seal like with the Trumpet Judgments, which are desolations (not plagues). You did not address the issue of WHO said Rev 6:17, and the veracity of their statement conveyed truthfully by John.

No. The purpose of any particular Trumpet blast is singular. Jesus blows the Last Trumpet. An Angel blows the seventh Trumpet. One is an assembly Trumpet The other is an announcement Trumpet. Those are inconvenient facts you don't address! Yes. It is a single note with a "starting" tone, a primary tone, and an optional "ending" tone depending on the use of the sounder's breath. It cannot change its tone. It has one note. That is why the only differentiation comes with the timing of one's breath, or limiting of one's breath, or the acceleration of one's breath. You just went through the series of modern uses of the shofar. To equate the series of blasts that are used in the Rosh ha-Shannah ceremony which has NINE repetitions of 11 different variations with one final blast - as ALL being the SAME BLAST ~ is pure SPIN. I'm used to your tortured rationalizations which allow you to make a pyramid on the earth for the New Heaven and New Earth's dwelling place we are to have with God. I'm used to your various renditions of the Hebrew language which differ from every recognized Hebrew expert. I'm used to your use of them to such an extent to be as legalistically precise that you actually fail to communicate. However, I will never be able to convince you of anything. Likewise, your equations have little effect upon me because I don't automatically jump down each and every of your rabbit holes. Now, here is something: In the scriptures however, thetekiah or tekiah gedolah is simply referred to as a long, sustained blast. This simple call was the signal to Moses and the people of Israel to come to the base of the Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19:13) and the call sounded by the priests at the famous battle of Jericho (Joshua 6:5). The second of the Biblical calls sounded by the shofar is the teruah. In this instance, the underlying etymology of the Hebrew word appears to be its apparent mimicking of the verbal shout of war. Unlike the single tone of thetekiah, the teruah consists of short (i.e., staccato), rapid blasts on the primary tone (Leviticus 25:9). So let me ask you some questions: Have you ever heard the Lord blow the Last Trumpet? Have you ever heard an Angel blow any Trumpet? Seeing that you have heard neither: How can you say the two trumpets, blown by different individuals ~ is the SAME BLAST?

It could. I am not one to destroy another's belief structure. There are people who are out to do that. I understand that those who post, hardly ever change what they think. I have seen folk be refuted point-blank with an error they have committed in reading and interpreting a single verse - and subsequently they refuse to budge from their error. So I understand that I am not going to force anyone to change their eschatological thinking/belief structure. All I can do is link Scripture together to try and show you, that the sole mention of the Last Trumpet by Paul in 1st Corinthians is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, and that is revealed as being coincidental with the events which transpire when the sixth Seal is opened by Jesus. I can (again) post a paper making the linkages from 1st Corinthians to 1st Thessalonians to the Olivet Discourse, to Revelation, if you desire. The Last Trumpet happens with the Day of the Lord. As a Pre-Wrath adherent, I place the unknown Day of the Lord as happening: After the midpoint After the SHORTENED Great Tribulation BEFORE any of the Trumpets sound. Well before the end of the one 'seven' I do NOT name a day. I do not "time" the Day of the Lord. I think that the classical Post-Trib eschatological view's of a "last day" Day of the Lord does that. I think that is a internal inconsistency of their Scriptural interpretation in forming their eschatology. ~ This criticism has never caused such a person to change their position... I look to the Great Multitude assembled in Heaven before the Father as representative of the end result of the Harvest of Revelation 14:14-16, and the gathering of the Elect in Mt 24:31. Thus, I say the Last Trumpet cannot be part of what happens after the seventh Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet. We're not on the earth during God's Wrath; Rev 3:10 is often cited as saying we could be, but a close examination of that verse does not warrant such an interpretation.

WHO says: "for the great day of their wrath has come" BEFORE any of the seven Trumpets sound? The kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man. Who says: "and Your wrath came" AFTER the seventh Trumpet sounds? The 24 Elders. Now who are you going to trust to convey what is happening with God's Plan? ~ The ones who have taken the mark of the beast and worshiped the talking image, who were told by the third of three Angels (Rev 14:9-11) that they were going to suffer for it, ~ or 24 Elders who have preceded us into Heaven and have been the Father and the Lamb for some two thousand years now? The wicked of the earth will mourn on the Day Jesus comes! Why? Because they only care about themselves and their wickedness. When Jesus comes, they know they have a price to pay because on the waiting portion of the Day of the Lord, when the sun is covered by clouds starting at noon, the third of three Angels tells the wicked what will soon come to pass. That's why they "know" 'God's Wrath has come' -- the sun/moon/star event is unmistakably from God and they fear losing their lives - they're only interested in saving their butts at this point. But that's not what happens first when Jesus comes.

Mostly correct? What I said WAS correct. Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet and those who hear, awaken from death. And Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet and the Third Woe begins. However, to say God's Wrath came with the events of the sixth Seal, is not quite correct; which is a nice way of saying it is incorrect. The Aorist tense in Greek is not simple past tense. The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense. http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm So it has not already begun by the sixth Seal. The only physical, earthly event which happens with the sixth Seal are two earthquakes; one to shake things up before the sun/moon/star sign, and the second when Jesus alights upon the earth. Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. This second one reflects what is revealed later in the detailed, parallel account of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13 to 16 (inclusive): Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty- four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. ~ This happens before the Harvest just as the 144,000 are mentioned with the sixth Seal as coming before the Great Multitude are before the Father in Heaven on His Throne (in the Temple). And this sighting of Jesus on the earth was seen by the prophet Zechariah (and Isaiah) in the Old Testament. (Isaiah omits the splitting portion which displaces every other reference point on the earth.) Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. Now how does that move everything? Here is a scientific geological study of the earth's displacement of every single point of the entire earth that happened with a significant earthquake underneath the Indian Ocean. Sumatra Quake Shook Earth’s Total Surface By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer May 19, 2005 WASHINGTON - December's great Sumatra-Andaman earthquake — the most powerful in more than 40 years and the trigger of a devastating tsunami — shook the ground everywhere on Earth's surface. Weeks later the planet was still trembling. They said the higher sea floor displaced so much water from the Bay of Bengal and the Andaman Sea that sea level worldwide was raised 0.004 inch. "No point on Earth remained undisturbed," wrote Roger Bilham of the University of Colorado. Indeed, ground movement of as much as 0.4 inch occurred everywhere on Earth's surface, though it was too small to be felt in most areas. And the temblor "delivered a blow to our planet" that was felt for weeks, noted a team of researchers led by Jeffrey Park of Yale University.

The point of the "Charge!" bugle was to sound the charge! The reaction of the people is totally different and apart from saying the TRUMPET does and means two things at once! When Jesus comes, we are to look up for our redemption is nigh. When Jesus comes, the world (wicked) will mourn. There is one initial coming after a long absence - but it is singular. Paul wrote about difference between Righteous and Wicked with Jesus as comparing it to the smell of the incense at the Roman army victory march. - To the victors, at the head of the procession, it was the sweet smell of victory. - To the prisoners at the tail end of the procession, it was the smell of death. BUT - it is not a case of one incense doing two things. It was the same incense which was doing one thing for their pagan temple ritual from two different perspectives. It is NOT that two things don't happen when Jesus comes again. It is whether or not a single Trumpet can do two things at once. It cannot. Remember: Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet. An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet And: Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet to awaken the Dead in Christ. An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet to announce God's Wrath. A trumpet can mean different things to different people, but that particular Trumpet has only one meaning.

America is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture outright. However, I agree it is alluded to several times. While commentators have long taught, as was I, that the four beasts of Daniel 7 are a 1:1 correlation to the four parts of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue representing the Kingdoms of Man to the end of the Age of Man's rule ~ I note two important differences. All four come out of the sea. This alludes literally to the Mediterranean, and figuratively to Europe as a 'sea of peoples'. The first three survive the destruction of the fourth. This is not the case with the first two Kingdoms of Daniel 2. That second fact ought to eliminate an interpretation of Daniel 7's four beasts to ancient, long-dead empires, but belief can trump logic when it comes to interpreting Scripture. The transformation of the first beast also marries well with the history of America's founding: In the manner of the first beast, England was represented by the lion. Wings can demonstrate its strength. England was the predominant world power in the 18th century. When the colonists became organized, they found they could not affect the power they felt they had as English subjects; they were given no power in government. Thus, their power was stripped. However, when they overcame the odds, and became independent, they 'stood up on their two legs' as a man, America being the First Nation of its type in the world, with hardly any other like it even today. We do put humanitarianism first, even in war, and we have been a champion of human rights. I put it to you, that the brief description in Daniel 7, succinctly describes the evolution of English people, to Colonists, to Americans. I also think the reference in Isaiah 18 also describes America in a post-apocalypsistic world entering the Millennium. Furthermore, in pursuing the Gulf Wars post 9-11, America has acted very Romanesque and sent out ships like the ones of Kittim in Daniel 11. Finally, with our moral authority, we become the "mouthpiece" of the fourth terrible beast in Revelation 13:2.

Well we can put anything together, and there are as many ways to put Scripture together as there are people to form them. We literally have kooks and kooky ideas here. Want to get a wayward eye in an intelligent gathering? Let them know you're "into" eschatology. Now when I studied trumpets and how they were used, they are simple signaling devices. They cannot convey complicated commands, nor are there examples of multiple commands with a single signal, which might be a series of blasts. There is nothing to suggest what you propose in historical and cultural use. That we don't use trumpets means we are at a disadvantage in understanding them, which can lead to your supposition. What we do have is a whole set of differences which buttress a determination to separate the two. The Last Trumpet is: Blown by God A named Trumpet An assembly trumpet The "last call" for Salvation The seventh Trumpet is: Blown by an Angel A numbered Trumpet An announcement trumpet Announces the final desolation against the wicked So, no, in this specific instance, the same action cannot have two different results.

No credible debate? Who is it that declares God's Wrath has come? What evidence for God's Wrath coming in the way of physical desolations are there beside their testimony? Considering who it is that declares it is coming, how much of an expert are they on God? Do they indeed "get" God right at this time? Or do they miss the mark yet again?

Revelation 1:7 describes the same event as Matthew 24:30 unless you want to say there are two times Jesus appears to the whole world - the whole way around the world! And remember, the Greeks had already calculated the diameter of the earth! It was not until the Dark Ages that flat earth Roman Catholic clerics took a small bit of Scripture and made a whole culture live in ignorance. It would a colossal presumption to insist everyone beforehand was also under this delusion. John wrote Rev 1:7. (Jesus is not quoted until verse 8.) He is introducing the Lord with the greatest moment of joy Christianity could know: the long-awaited Return of the Lord. Jesus taught that His Return in Matthew 24:30 would also be witnessed by all. This on the Day of the Lord. The same precursor sign of the Day of the Lord is given with the sixth Seal. And with that event, as from the detailed parallel account of the Harvest in Revelation 14 comes with 3 Angels, and they are the ones who warn the wicked their time is up. That is why the wicked mourn. And Isaiah saw this event as well. They're all related to the Glorious Return of Christ Jesus, the most momentous event of Christendom.

Brevity, Roy, brevity. Your obtuse reply is unreadable and will go unread. My point is the Father, Son, and Spirit lived in Heaven before the sky was created.

Fragments? Roy, it's more than that, now be fair. The disciples were familiar with the book of Enoch. It's in the Bible. I read it once and I did not find anything heretical in the Ethiopian book upon a casual reading. It's not my imagination. You're not being fair here either. It's a fact that where God is, was there before here was here. And some of that IS described in the Bible. Some more is described in the book of Enoch.

Are you going to tell me that you can't figure out "they" are the triune godhead? Where were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost before the Father brought time, matter, and space into existence at once? Are you going to insist they were in a vacuum unable to move about? I didn't think so.

Where were they before there was a sky? They most certainly were before the Father formed time, matter, and space.

MY thinking did not come from Ancient Greece, or mythology, or popular conception. My concept of Heaven is drawn from what limited information there is in the Bible, coupled with an image from the Ethiopian book of Enoch, and in light of the fact that before there was a sky, Heaven was. As we are created in His Image, and even the Temple is a poor copy of what is in Heaven, Heaven to me is more "real" than this real world. So the place where Jesus is now, cannot be the sky, or space, or anything of this world you like to point to with your word study, because where He came from and returned to existed before there was any sky or space at all. And that point is something I think you miss about what I am saying in my rejection of your interpretation.

Marilyn, What is your opinion on the woman in the Songs of Solomon chapter 5? Does the appearance of her love unrequited remind you of anything about Jesus' coming in any way as it does to me? Does her impatience and irritation concerning getting up out of bed remind you anything about the self-sufficiency of the Jewish people today, and how they could "miss" Jesus yet again?

Ignore function: engaged. Serenity: returning.

You really are not understanding this, are you? There I fixed it for you, and now its applicability is correctly addressed.