seeking the lost
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Hi Psalms 37:4, The Pre-Trib Rapture requires a resurrection to precede it. There is not a resurrection before the end of the tribulation. Revelation 20 gives the time and those included in the two resurrections. The first is of those who have been faithful unto death, those who have been beheaded. They are raised at the end of the tribulation for the purpose of reigning. 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Do you really want to add a resurrection? For God it is not necessary to take the Church up to avoid wrath. 7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Notice the seal of the living God is upon those who are His upon the earth. The seal is for protection from wrath not a ticket to exit before wrath.
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Hi Zoltan777 welcome to the forum You make some good points. There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. Jesus said in the world that believes would have tribulation. He said this to prepare them for what was to come. The Christian life is not without difficulties. Christians will experience the rage of Satan and there will be many that are killed for their faith. This is already happening in many parts of the world. The great tribulation is not yet. Those who believe in the pre-wrath rapture do not believe that God can pour out wrath upon the earth while believes are present. The separate the wheat from the tares which is backwards. The separation is first the tares are gathered and burned then the wheat is gathered in this is at the time of the harvest. Before the wrath is poured out there are angles that mark the people of God. The instructions are do not harm those who have the seal of God. Rev. 7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” The deliverance from wrath is not an exit such as a rapture is the the seal that protects. The protection at this point is not from the evil one. It is protection from the wrath of God.
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Do you know what the disciples were doing to try to cast the demon out? What did Jesus do to cast the demon out?
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Yes, this is true. Everything that you have pointed to is accurate. The Millennial reign is of the King who is a Judge. Revelation 20 relates the time when the Judge of all will open the books. The Judgment of the Dead 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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While we wait for His coming let us be aware that He is already here. From Rev. 1:8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”. The one who promised that He would be with us always even unto the end of the earth cannot be absent and be truthful at the same time. He will come as King to rule for Thousand years at the end of the tribulation. He will come as Judge at the end of the thousand years.
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Who says I have to convince them? Who says they are the arbiters of what constitutes the Great Tribulation? And who says that their suffering just because it's horrible makes their suffering THE Great Tribulation? Is their suffering more terrible than all the other forms of torture used throughout the millennia by man against man, woman and child? Was their suffering inflicted in accordance with Revelation 13:14-17? No? What about Mt 24:15? No? Well then - it's not part of the Great Tribulation! So you do not care that your fake doctrine has disillusioned them and they being lied to turn their back on the Lord. Go to the Chinese who felt betrayed and now win them back to confidence in the Lord. Are you so uncaring about people that you cannot be sensitive to their suffering and their perception of the truth? I know it is not part of the Great tribulation but in the same way they are offended now, What do you mean - "That hurts, right?" I give you no power to hurt me. You can do whatever you want to do. Sometimes, depending on what you do, you can even do it again; and then again, other times you can't! Perhaps you are adding to my text? Is this a guessing game? I don't know, but we will see how you change the text later on in this post... Who says I have to convince them? Who says they are the arbiters of what constitutes the Great Tribulation? And who says that their suffering just because it's horrible makes their suffering THE Great Tribulation? Is their suffering more terrible than all the other forms of torture used throughout the millennia by man against man, woman and child? Was their suffering inflicted in accordance with Revelation 13:14-17? No? What about Mt 24:15? No? Well then - it's not part of the Great Tribulation! Who said anyone was captured? I said: killed. How do you go from killed to captured? Where in conjunction with the Great Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse did Jesus say the Elect were just captured? Where, in conjunction with the talking image and the two laws of Rev 13:15-17 does it say to capture those who transgress? Ah, this must be a reading thing of yours... The spell check must have changed raptured into captured. They in the safety of heaven would not need those days to be shortened.
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That's quite an assumption you make from reading. You forget your challenge to me of reading skills. Perhaps I am adding to your text. That hurts, right? I know that and you know that but when your family is tortured and killed before your eyes and you are being challenged to forsake your faith, it may be hard to convince them of that. If the elect have been captured why would the days need to be shortened? I reject any teaching that is not included in the WORD of God but is made up of enticing words of mans wisdom without solid foundation. The rapture occurs after the resurrection and not before the Wrath.
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I am not a novice and the post tribulation rapture was not my first doctrine. I have had to study all the different thoughts concerning eschatology. Your representation of the doctrine that questions my reading ability sets a contempt. I must assume that you do not want me to come out of ignorance. Pual had something to say about ignorance. He said: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Your treatment of the wheat and the tares ignores the ancient near east practices of the harvest. I understand that when you approach scripture with bias that all you can see will support your bias. You have proven that. In China American Missionaries taught this doctrine of the pre-wrath rapture. The missionaries were kicked out by the communist. Many millions were killed for their faith. Many more fell away because they felt they had been lied to. The missionaries told them they would escape. The fruit of this doctrine is bad all the way around. I place it in the category of doctrines of demons and seducing spirits.
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Your arguments are clear but the premise I do not think is in line with scripture. Your tone causes me to not want to listen to you even if I thought you have something legitimate to say. There is not a pre-wrath rapture because there is not a pre-wrath resurrection. How does your pre-wrath doctrine preach in Iraq where Christians are already being killed for their faith. Go preach it to Egypt, India, or the Philippines. It surly will be an encouragement to them that they will miss the tribulation.
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Do not worry about your reading skills. Your lack of ability is made up for by your ability to read things that are not there. If you can show me a specific test that expressly identifies a resurrection (like the sea giving up its dead)then I will not say that you are in danger. If you are reading into the text because you do not want to suffer a greater suffering awaits you. It was the foolish virgins that were not ready for the delayed coming. They did not prepare with or for patient endurance.
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Yes reading skills. The Parable of the Weeds 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” The fullness of this is Revelation 14. Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress 14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great wine press of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c] The tare are dealt with first. The wheat is not lifted up for the burning to occur.
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No doubt the Greek is correct. It is the order that is important. Tares are collected and burned first. After this the wheat is gathered.
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Revelation 20 is a very defining WORD. First is First. Rest of the dead is everybody else.
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If they have been martyrs they will be raised to reign. These are the number and they may include those you are referring to but there is not a separate resurrection for them at another time. This is the First Resurrection, I take this literally. This means that there were no resurrections before it.
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Jesus said the tares are the first ones gathered out at the time of the harvest. For you to say that Paul said we are to be saved before the coming wrath does not square with that. Thessalonians teaches that we the living will not precede the dead. The dead must be raised first then we who are alive and remain. The first for the living and then for the dead, which you mention, does not even come close to the nature of a resurrection. The first resurrection as described in Revelation 20 is of people who have had there heads removed and I think that is a resurrection of dead people. You say, "Neither places the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive after the Millennium Reign of Christ." The words of the Revelation describes the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium. It very definitely describes those who are being raised and for what purpose. Before this there have been no resurrections of this nature. That is why John says this is the first resurrection. The other statement is the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years. The rest of the dead includes everyone who was not raised in the first resurrection. It is not a good idea to add resurrections because you believe we will not suffer. If we suffer with Him we also will reign with Him.
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Hello Davida What order would you suggest for me? When do you suppose the resurrection will occur? The resurrection and the rapture cannot be separated.
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Hi missmuffet The first resurrection is limited and specific. All will be raised but only those who have remained faithful unto death are raised in the first resurrection. It is a closed set resurrection. That means only those specified are raised at this time. The rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years. Be careful about adding to the text.
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Hi Davida, Yes and this happens at the end of the thousand years. There is not another time that the dead in Christ are raised that will allow the rapture.
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You may be aware of this scripture. I Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. This places the rapture right after the resurrection. The rapture cannot happen before the resurrection(the second resurrection). Thessalonians gives the order, Revelation gives us the time.
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I believe there will be 7 years of tribulation. I believe that Christ will reign on the earth for a thousand years. I believe there will be a resurrection at the begining of the thousand years and one at the end. The amillennialist does not believe any of this.
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Yes, I do believe I am. Do you want to add to the first resurrection? Do you want to add a resurrection before the first resurrection? It is best to order your doctrine by what the Word says rather than what you want it to say.
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The first resurrection is specifically stated, as you have adequately quoted, to include only those who have been beheaded, they have not worshiped the beast, they have not received his mark. This resurrection does not include all saints. It is a closed set. Only those stated are included in this resurrection. It is only those that are raised to reign with Christ. The rest of the dead that did not live again until the thousand years were ended is the general resurrection. This one is inclusive and includes all those who have died up to this point only excluding those who were raised in the first resurrection. There are those who are alive and remain these will be caught up at this point.
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Would you agree or disagree that the resurrection of the dead is at the end of the thousand years? Rev. 20:5, The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
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That is what I was going to suggest to you. Not to add or delete to Scripture. I do not believe you are getting your view from reading scripture literally. Would you please state what it is that you disagree with and reject and why?
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It is very easy to reject this or that interpretation but be careful of the interpretations that have to add to the Word. Adding resurrections or raptures where it may seem to fit is way out of line and dangerous. Be sure of this that the dead in Christ must rise first before the rapture and the end of the thousand years is the only time that can happen without adding to the Word.
