seeking the lost

You do know that the only one going up in chapter 4 is John. He is only going up in the spirit and remained upon the earth. The message he received was of the things that are to come. The first resurrection is clearly stated. The time and those included in the first resurrection are clearly defined. The time is at the beginning of the thousand years. Look carefully at those who are included: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20: 4) If you add a resurrection before the stated resurrection identified as the first resurrection that is not seeing what is there. That is making stuff up. Because the time of the rest of the dead being raised is specific the rapture can only happen at that time. That is at the end of the thousand years. Rev. 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. There are only two resurrections clearly identified with time and content. Going beyond the text is adding to the text.

Yes, there are two resurrections. They are clearly described in the twentieth chapter of Revelation. The first is only of those who were killed during the tribulation. The second, last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. That day is the last day. This day is described in 2 Peter 3: 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The last day is the day after which there are no other days. Peter describes that day. That is the day of resurrection for the ones who believe. The unrighteous are also raised on that day. Revelation 20 identifies the participants of the last day as the rest of the dead. Matthew 25 gives a very clear understanding of the judgment of that day. The righteous and the unrighteous stand for judgment. At that time the sheep and the goats are separated. Both sheep and goats are raised on the last day at the end of the thousand years. Matt. 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You have said that the rapture is before the seals are opened. The problem with that is that there is no resurrection there. Do you feel comfortable adding one there? There are consequences for adding to the book.

The scripture is very clear. There is a tendency to add to the text to make it say other things. The first resurrection is only of the martyrs, all others are excluded from this resurrection. The resurrection at the end of the thousand years includes everyone not included in the first resurrection. Just let the text define the content of each and do not add to the description. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

No. The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is not movable.

This is the very thing that is the most important thing concerning the rapture. The rapture is dynamically and inextricably connected to the resurrection. The problem with your interpretation is that the first resurrection does not occur until the end of the tribulation. This resurrection is limited and not inclusive of any who are not mentioned. They do not ascend to heaven. They are raised to reign. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The tares have been removed and satan has been bound. The thousand years begin then shall the righteous shine in the kingdom of the Father. The rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time that it can be said with certainty that the dead in Christ are raised. Satan would have you believe that it is ok to add to the text and change the order because God loves you and does not want you to suffer. His motivation is the same as in the garden, he is driving people to the curse. Do not add.

Are you saying that the words "swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." is the rapture of the Church? I have failed to see a resurrection, which must precede the rapture. Is it OK to add one here for convenience? '

Many Christians will be killed just as he said. They are subject to the rage of satan. All those who have the seal of God are protected from the wrath of God.

The primary text is Matthew 13 with the parable of the wheat and the tares. This states clearly that the tares are gathered out first and burned. I recognize the book of Revelation as the teaching of Jesus recorded by John. Consider Rev. 14: The Harvest of the Earth 14 And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man,c with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16 So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia. To be consistent both the wheat and the tares have grown together to this point. Malachi 4: The Day of the LORD (Zephaniah 1:7–18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11; 2 Peter 3:8–13) 1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3 Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts. Ezekiel 9 is a foreshadowing of how the Lord will handle the last days. The righteous are marked and all that are not marked are wiped out. Revelation is similar in these verses; Rev 7: 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back its four winds so that no wind would blow on land or sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Rev. 9: 3 And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. This seal is the protection from the wrath of God.

For this discussion, the position of the group is not as important as the description of who they are. Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They came out of the great tribulation. These are the ones spoken of to the ones under the altar. They were told about the day of vengeance that will come after others that should be killed will be killed. Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The group under the alter asks a question, "How long?". The answer is often overlooked. Rev. 6: ...and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. The great multitude of chapter 7 are the ones he spoke of. They came out of not before the tribulation.

According to the teachings of Jesus and many others, the wicked are taken out first and the righteous are left behind. Looking forward to being left behind.

Those described as alive and remain are in the time frame at the end of the millennium. Satan has been loosed and will deceive many. Remain refers to those who have not been deceived. The resurrection is followed by the rapture. Both of these events happen at the same time after the thousand years.

You are correct that the weeds/tares are taken out first. They are not caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye and will not ever be with the Lord. The rapture is found in connection with the rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years. Those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed. Looking forward to being left behind.

So much weeping over a nap. You may be as confused as the disciples. Jesus said to them, "Lazarus is asleep and I go to wake him up." They say, "Lord if he sleep, he shall do well." Jesus then clarifies the situation for them and maybe for you. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him Did you miss the part about Lazarus is dead?

In the Jewish understanding, it was after the third day that the spirit left the body. Jesus waited until the fourth day so that many might see the glory of God and believe. If he was just disturbing a long nap there is no glory in that. Why are you trying to deny a miracle? Are you trying to make a point of once to die and that is all and therefore Lazarus was not really dead? Consider Hebrews 11: 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. What happened to them?

You might want to take another look at the story of Lazarus. 12 His disciples replied, “Lord if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus. 14 So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” After he had been in the grave for four days and decaying Jesus came. John 11: 43 After Jesus had said this, He called out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The man who had been dead came out with his hands and feet bound in strips of linen, and his face wrapped in a cloth.e “Unwrap him and let him go,” Jesus told them. There are many throughout the Bible who have been raised to life and there are many today that are being raised from the dead and have died again. Death is certain and judgment is to follow. Consider the scripture: IITimothy 2: 16But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some. These are the words of Jesus said to John; Rev. 20: 4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Why do you say that he did not say this? One last thing. Eph. 4: 17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more. Do not turn away from the revealed Word of God in favor of your own thinking.

Graves were opened and many came to life from the dead. The Bible does not say what happened to them after that. As the disciples watched Jesus go into heaven there is no mention of anyone else with Him. In Revelation, Jesus told John about the first resurrection is at the beginning of the millennium. Adding a resurrection or adding to the record leans into the curse.

I am still trying to understand how you have found or created a resurrection that would include all of the dead in Christ at that point. It is absolutely bible truth that the first resurrection is at the beginning of the millennium. Only those listed are raised. They do not ascend to heaven. They are being raised to reign. These things being true and recorded in the Word of God will not allow any rapture before the beginning of the millennium. Wisdom is obeying the Lord and not adding stuff to what He said not to add to.

I am just looking at the text of Rev. 7 and Rev. 9 and the command not to hurt those that have the seal of God. Being protected by the command of God is more likely than a rapture. That is true without a resurrection of the dead in Christ being raised first there will not be a rapture. That resurrection happens at the end of the thousand years. The warning of the curse is clear do not add or take away. Rev. 22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

The problem arises after you add to the writings of this book that you also must take away from what the revelation says clearly to make it fit a narrative. Take a close look at these texts. Rev7: God's People will Be Preserved 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev.9: 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. These texts clearly give the means of God's deliverance for His people. Everyone who does not have the seal of God will be harmed. Those with the seal of God are not raptured but they are protected from the wrath of God by this command, do not harm them. There will be believers present that on the earth if this were not true there would not be any tribulation martyrs. Martyrs are the result of satans rage. They are not protected by the seal of God from this but they will be rewarded. Our narratives are different because I see God protecting His people from Wrath and you seem to believe that they are taken up to be protected. Did Jesus teach that the tares would be taken out first? Matt. 13: 24Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared. 27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ” Who are the ones taken out first

Greetings Montana The tares are evidently present in your quotation. there is a teaching of Jesus that the tares are to be taken out first. You do know that the wheat and the tares grow together until the end. The harvest begins with the tares being gathered and burned. Is this hard to understand? Looking forward to being left behind.

I see you are struggling with my concept of resurrection. You have stated the scriptures accurately and that is truth. The dead in Christ must rise first. Where we disagree is in the timing.. The only time that the rapture can take place is after the dead in Christ are raised, which happens as stated in Rev. 20, at the end of the thousand years. The rapture is at least 1007 years away from now. before that happens there will be tribulation for 7 years. Many believers will die for their faith. The days of the tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. If those days were not shortened there would no flesh be saved alive. There will be Christians that survive the tribulation. During the time of the tribulation, those outside of Christ will experience the wrath of God. Believers will be protected by a seal as stated in Rev. 7, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. This is followed by the instructions in Rev. 9, The Fifth Trumpet 1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. This is the time that the tares and the wheat are beginning to be separated. The seal will be similar to that described in Ezekiel 9, 1He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. Judgment begins at the house of God. You might remember the parable of the wheat and tares. The tares are gathered first and burned. Jesus will come and clean house. Looking forward to being left behind. Those who live through the tribulation are now going to enter the millennium. They will be joined by those who have been killed for their faith as described in Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There are many last days but only one has a resurrection connected with it. Your reasoning is in line with a cunningly devised story. Have you found a key to add a resurrection before the first resurrection? The Bible is clear that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is not to protect us from wrath. The dead in Christ are raised up on the last day. That day is described in the text, Rev. 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They a had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. The last day is at the end of the thousand years and that is the last day. After this day there are no other days on this earth. That is the time of the elements melt with fervent heat. The first resurrection is limited to those described for the stated purpose. They are raised to reign on the earth, they do not go up anywhere yet. Because of the warning contained in the revelation, it is not a good idea to add resurrections and raptures wherever you think it fits.