seeking the lost

Hi Marv, I do believe that there are only two resurrections as they are recorded in Revelation 20. Those that are raised in each resurrection and the time of those resurrections are very specific and not to be messed with. Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and before the thousand years. The martyrs are raised to reign upon the earth. (They are not going up) The second resurrection is titled the rest of the dead. This means that everyone that is not included in the first resurrection are included in this resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

There is no such thing as a pre-resurrection rapture. You keep trying to add a resurrection in order to match your theology. There is a warning against that. The first resurrection is of the martyrs. That does not include all believers because not all believers are martyred. I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.

Could you show the scripture that says specifically that the gathering comes before the wrath? The teaching and prayer of Jesus seem to lead otherwise. Jesus taught that the tares or weeds will be taken out first. Matthew 13: The Parable of the Weeds 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” The prayer of Jesus from John 17: 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. The answer to this prayer is found in Revelations 9: 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. The seal of God marks and protects from wrath.

Thank you for your question. The words of Jesus are very important, it does seem that He has a say in this. His words from John 6: 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” From these words we learn that the believers are raised on the last day. The only possible resurrection that matches or even comes close to fulfilling this word is at the end of the thousand years. That is without question the last day after which there are no other days. The last day means this is the end or culmination of all things and a transition to the world to come. Revelation 20: affirms the resurrection, 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. This clearly identifies the time of each resurrection and those that are raise at which time. Revelation 20: beginning in verse 11 speaks of the judgement and who will be there when the books are opened. "11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Matthew 25 gives us a clearer picture of that day when all will stand before Him. 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Believers and non believers are there at the same time and this is the last day. The reason that this is the time of the rapture is because the scripture is clear that we will not precede those who are asleep in Christ. There can be no other time for the rapture. There are many last days but there is only one LAST day.

You might be aware that the wrath has already begun. According to Romans 1 the wrath of God is being revealed. God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. How does He do this without taking the Church ot of the world? You do realize that the first resurrection is about reigning on the earth. This is not a resurrection to go up. But that is just according to the text. What do I know?

Greetings Diaste. Do you have a source that gives an account of those who were raised at the time of the resurrection of Christ? Did they ascend with Jesus? Did they die again? Are they still alive on the earth today? It seems the Bible is silent on this point. The first resurrection does contain the martyrs but beyond that it will be projection of theory and not sound doctrine to add to the list. The time of this resurrection is set at the end of the tribulation and is no movable.

The primary texts that teach us of the rapture are 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, and 1 Corinthians 15. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Chorinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Both of these texts link the rapture with the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians specifies that the dead in Christ must be raised first. This resurrection happens at the end of the thousand years. This is when Jesus comes as judge of all the earth and all will stand before Him. If anyone teaches that this rapture can happen at any time they must also be willing to add a resurrection at any time. That is not ligitamate Bible study. The resurrections are clearly defined as to the time and those who take part in each. This is in Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is only those who lost their lives for Jesus. The first resurrection does not include all the dead in Christ. The second resurrection is when the rest of the dead are raised. That is the only time that the rapture can occur and be faithful to the Word of God.

The purpose of the rapture is not to escape the wrath of God. The mark of God takes care of that. The purpose of the rapture is to take the christians who are alive and remain to the new heavens and the new earth. It is imperative that the rapture is linked to the resurrection of the dead in Christ. They must be raised first.

No fight but contending for the faith once delivered and warnning of the curse that is added to those that add things to the word that are not present. If the scripture offends you I am sorry.

The rapture is after the dead in Christ are raised. Do you not know the scripture or do you just ignore it? 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Jesus said that the belevers would be raise up at the last day. And there is a resurrection at that time not by coincidence.

Before the rapture there will be seven years of tribulation. After the tribulation there will be one thousand years of reigning and then the resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the rapture.

Does this mean a rapture pretrib is impossible? Not at all. That is not the intent of this verse. Do people suddenly disappear the moment they are born again? No, God leaves us here to work. Where one's work is finished, then they die and still end up in heaven. I don't think this is a good argument against a pretrib rapture. Greetings iamlamad, The rapture is only possible after the resurrection. Biblical integrity does not allow the addition of a resurrection and therefore does not allow a pre trib rapture. The purpose of the rapture is not to take christians out of the world but to take us to a new heaven and a new earth. The last day is a day after which there are no more days. 2 Peter 3: 10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Sorry, but the resurrection after the 1000 years would be the "second Death" resurrection. Certainly NOT the "first" or primary resurrection (Rev. 20:4) You have picked the wrong "last day." There is going to be a "last day" of the church age, then a last day of the 70th week - which will also be the last day of the Jewish age. Then there will be a last day of the millennial reign also. And then their will be the last day of this old heaven and earth. Iteresting twist. Jesus said He would raise believers on the last day and lok at this there is a resurrection at time. Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This is the time that the books are opened and a seperation is made. Jesus spoke of this time. Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Sheep and goats are there at the same time and then they are seperated.

Are you saying the resurrection is past? Have you considered this verse? 2 Timothy 2:17-19 King James Version (KJV) 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The rapture and the end are at least 1007 years away.

The words of Jesus seem to be different than your words.

Yes the last days are described in the book of Revelation. Jesus was more specific when He said last day singular. These are the words of Jesus, " 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Different views are fine as long as someone does not have to add to the text in order to arrive at the view. The threat is not mine it is the warning of the text. The resurrections are clearly defined and numbered which leaves little room for speculation. Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. The first resurrection does not include all the dead in Christ but only those who have been beheaded. There are two things to be observed here, 1) There are no resurrections before this, 2)Everyone that is not raised in this resurrection will be raised at the end of the thousand years. The dead in Christ are to be raised first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It seems you are trying very hard with all kinds of mental gymnastics to come up with a cunningly devised story while ignoring even Jesus Himself. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will be raised on the last day. John 6: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is not appropriate to change the meaning of the last day. That day is well defined as the rest of the dead. Revelation 20: 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) It is very important that all of us pay attention to the promise of all plagues of this book are to be added to those who add to this book. Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Interesting calculations but this question will remain. How do you find a resurrection at this point, MID TRIB? Do you calculate that or just make it up to accomidate a theory?

Thank you. I did not catch that from the post.

Truth is not determined by the number of degrees that a person has but only if it lines up with the Word of God. The will of Jesus is revealed in John 17 as he prayed. Jesus prayed to the Father and said, " 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." What does the one with degrees do with that? The rapture can only take place after the dead in Christ are raised. This is the Word of the Lord, 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. Jesus told us that those who believe in Him would be raised up at the last day. John 6: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. The last day resurrection is at the end of the millennium. That is the last day. The only way that there could be a rapture at the time you indicate would be to add a resurrection before the tribulation. We have been warned that adding to the word will bring a curse upon us. The warning is given of the last days. 2 Timothy 4: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. The teacher may have it wrong or you have made it seem that he is wrong.

At a very intense time in His life, Jesus, prayed to the Father that believers not be taken out of the world. The prayer is recorded for us in John 17:. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. Does the Father not listen to the prayer of Jesus and make Him come and take us out of the world? The protection that the Father gives to believers is the seal of God. Revelation 7:2-4 New International Version (NIV) 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. The teaching of Jesus indicates that the tares are taken out first. The view that you have seems to take the wheat out first. The Parable of the Weeds. Matthew 13 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Peter probably spoke in greek which was the trade language of the day. Do you believe that the foreigners have the gift of translation? The Holy Spirit gave the non believers this wonderful gift but would not give believers the ability to speak in other languages. Is this what you believe?

Mankind will not be eliminated but will be changed.

This question is different than the question of, "When is the end of man history?"

"History"? You do mean the past do you not? History can be revised and lied about and even studied as the philosophy of history. The future is what many are fussing about.