seeking the lost

I understand your need to not have the people of God and the people of the evil one standing at the GWT. Notice the destiny of those who are being separated. 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Verse 46a goats eternal punishment, 46b sheep, righteous eternal life

Greetings Retrobyter, It is obvious that there are many different views of this time. As I look at the wheat and tares, I see a distinctive separation. The first taken out at the time of the harvest are the tares. I connect this with Malachi 4, Matt 3, and Revelation 14:14-19. I believe that this day will wipe out all people that do not fit into the wheat category. The thousand years will be inhabited by those who are categorically wheat. Concerning the coming of the Lord. 1] He is here. Rev. 1: 8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.. Do not neglect the "is". 2] He will come as a conquering king. This will be the time that the tares are taken out, and the grapes are CAST INTO THE WINEPRESS of his wrath. 3]He will come as judge of all the earth. This is at the end of the thousand years. All the dead are raised and the books are opened. That is the time of the separation of sheep and goats.

That is a very weak assumption. That they were not his does not say specifically that they are someone else sheep. When the separation is made on the last day The sheep will be those whose name is written in the book of life. Everyone is to give an account of what they have done. Humans are called sheep as an analogy, like sheep.

The second death not having no power over them refers to the time that satan is loosed for a period of time at the end of the thousand years. Satan will deceive many but will not be able to deceive those who have been raised to reign. All those that are deceived are those that have succumbed to the second death. The first resurrection as stated in Revelation 20 is for those who were faithful unto death. This does not include all that have named the name of Christ. The parentheses inform us of when all the rest of the dead will be raised. The second resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. This resurrection is described for us in Revelation 20. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This is the time when the books are opened and all are judged by what they have done. The book of life is opened, and those not recorded in this book are cast into the lake. The fact that some are raised to everlasting life and some to damnation does not mean that they cannot be raised at the same time.

Are you referring to this verse in John 10: 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd? This verse does not say that they are not his but they are of another fold. The first part of this verse says clearly that they are his.

There are no sheep among the unsaved.

Consider Matthew 25: The Sheep and the Goats 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Jesus comes in glory as the text records. All nations are brought before Him. Then there is a separation of sheep and goats. If there were separate resurrections as you say there would not be this separation. If the sheep and the goats are not there together Jesus's words become meaningless.

Consider Matthew 25: The Sheep and the Goats 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. The first words of this passage refer to the coming of the Lord. All nations are brought before Him. There is now a separation of sheep and goats. The destiny of each is now pronounced.

John, who is writing these things to us, is very aware of the resurrection of Jesus. Being faithful to that which is being revealed to him by Jesus, who is also aware of the aforementioned resurrection, he tells us this is the first resurrection. That would be a mistake on his part if it were not the first resurrection of those who will never die again. Those raised with Jesus at the time of His resurrection may have died again to be raised at a later time. They may have ascended with Jesus but that is not recorded. What happened at that time can only be known by revelation or by the record. All else is speculation.

This is interesting but contrary to the actual description of what is called the first resurrection. Clearly, those who are part of this resurrection have been killed during the great tribulation. The purpose of this resurrection is also declared, that they may reign during the thousand years. How do you discredit what is written? How is this description of events not the future?

The number seems similar or maybe the same. This is a further clarification of who they are and how precious they are to the Father. There is nothing in the text or context that indicate that they were raptured. Rapture is defined as those who have not seen death are caught up and changed. As significant as that is surely the Spirit would not leave that to speculation. As important as that would be it seems like the text would say clearly, "These did not die but were caught up". We do see things differently. My encouragement to you is to not see things that are not there.

Thank you for your response. The context of this passage refers to the 144,000 who are Jews. If I understand your position, you are declaring that the first fruit, rapture, is for Jews.

Playing find the rapture is a luxury that many in the world do not understand. I understand you have found many. I believe that it is dangerous to add things that cannot be there. No one can divorce the rapture from the resurrection and still have biblical integrity. The resurrections are fixed in time and cannot be moved to fit doctrine. How many mature people have been raptured as a reward to this point? I see none. Does that change for special classes? Regarding the first fruit, Jesus was that. Anything after that cannot be titled first fruit. That at best would be second fruit.

Coming back from the weeds. The issue of multiple raptures is a serious challenge. In many parts of the earth, the church is preparing for martyrdom. Those who have been at ease are engaged in recreational rapture finding. The beginning of days and the end of days are alike in this, there is a failure to pay attention to the curse. As satan did beguile Eve so today many are beguiled to add to the scriptures. Satan told Eve of the great things that were in store for those who would eat the fruit of the tree. Today satan tells the ready rapture finders, "God does not want you to suffer". The scripture says God has not appointed us unto wrath. Satan says that means God will take you up before anything bad will happen to you. The application of the curse was delayed for Eve which encouraged Adam to eat. When will the curse be applied? Perhaps the warning is meaningless and we can add as many raptures as we like. Every time we find the word UP that must be a rapture.

Thank you. The bema seat is no different than the last day judgment when all nations come before Him and the books are opened. Revelation 20: The Final Judgment 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This is the time the books are opened and the sheep and goats are separated. There is not a separate judgment for saved and another for unsaved. 2 Cor and Rev.22 both indicate that all will be judged for the things they have done. There is only one time that the books are opened and judgment is dispensed.

I knew a man who was dead, lying in the morgue. His brother prayed for him and he came to life after being pronounced dead. He has now died again and is in the grave awaiting the last day. A question for you. During the thousand years, what is the nature of the population? Are there any people that are not glorified?

To add to our conversation I will add my understanding of resurrection. If a person is raised from the dead and then dies again that is outside of my understanding of resurrection. LAZARUS was raised to life but I do not know what happened after that. I assume that he continued his life until he died again. I would not include this as being the same as what is spoken of as the resurrection with glorified bodies. My attention is to number 5 on the list. Those at His coming are those raised at the end as recorded in verse 24 places this at the end. I have been calling it the last day. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. Therefore I would combine 5 and 7 and renumber it as six. Concerning Daniel 12:1 &2 this refers to the time when the books are opened which is stated to happen at the end of the thousand years. 1“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.a 3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.

The bema was what I ask you for text. It is not that you made it up just that it has been repeated many times as an assertion to support a doctrine. I assumed you were repeating this again. Concerning the highlighted text. The first resurrection is a closed set. That means that only those listed as being included in it are part of it. Verse 4 is the total list of those that are included in the first resurrection. The parenthesis explains what happens to everyone not included in the first resurrection. Not included in this list are many believers that have not been martyred. They are raised one thousand years after the first resurrection

The reason that you do not have a text is that it is made up. If you would allow yourself to read the text of Revelation 20 without predujus you might be able to see that the first resurrection is limited to the martyrs. At the end of the thousand years, everyone else is raised. This is the time that the books are opened and everyone is judged. That is consistent with Matthew 25.

Would you show me the text that indicates a bema? How does this square with the description of the judgment of Matthew 25? Matthew indicates that saved and unsaved stand before the judgment and at that time are separated some to the joy and some to weeping and gnashing. Sheep to the right and goats to the left. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There is one resurrection of saved and unsaved at the same time. This is the time that the books are opened and everyone is judged. This is the time that the sheep go to the right and the goats to the left. The separation comes at the judgment.

There is a resurrection at the end of the thousand years. If you are to place this at any other time you do serious violence to the text. To add a resurrection or move the stated time violates the text. To add to the people stated to be in the resurrection or deny those stated to be raised is also a problem. The last day is the day of resurrection and that is not movable or subject to interpretation.

The farmer makes the determination. The Father is very good at determining the time of the harvest. With his determination, there is no need for multiple raptures. I realize that many have taught these things but they are not in the revelation. It might be fun to see all these things but it is also dangerous. We all are charged to keep the things that are written and warned not to add to them. Rev. 1: 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The martyrs are in the first resurrection but you have to add to the text in order to say that all Christians are raised in the first resurrection. There is nothing in 1 Cor 15 that indicates that to be true. There is nothing that says that only the unsaved are raised at the end of the thousand years. If only the unsaved are raised there would be no sheep to go to the right. To your last point, I agree that the martyrs are raised to reign. That is clear from the text. The addition to the text is the problem.

Interesting, that is how you see it. I see it in terms of the tares being taken out first. I realize that would not be consistent with your views.