markdohle

No, Matt 25 deals with the end of the world where all will be brought forth for the final judgment.

God purifying fire is not condemnation but healing and mercy.

Well St. Paul says we will all be judge on what we have done or failed to do, all of our actions, it does not just deal with those outside of our faith. Though the judgments of God are true, not to be feared, there will be no doubt. St. Paul when he talked about the purifying fire meant just that, it is part of our judgement where all that is dross will be burnt away so that there will be no obstacle to our loving God fully and completely. It is pure grace for we cannot do that ourselves.

What does judgment mean?

Until the 17th century the Book of Maccabees was consider scripture, that is a fact. Did Luther have the authority to take them out? I would say no to that. So to say that the early church did not accept it is not true. If you don't agree with that, then you bring the whole early canon into question.....the Catholic church put the canon together, so how it is interpreted if goes against the church, is probably being used in a way that it was not intended. In the early church people were not running around with the New Testament lining up quotes to back up their own understandings.....the New Testament is part of the tradition of the Church. You need both, tradition and scripture....though I know you will not agree my friend ;-).....don't expect you to. Peace mark

Actually both books of Maccabees are scripture. Catholic Bibles contain 46 books in the Old Testament, including seven (Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch) which were part of an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. These books were better known among Greek speaking Jews in the Mediterranean world around the time of Jesus. Today these seven books are variously referred to as the “apocryphal” or “deuterocanonical” books and are usually placed between the Old and New Testaments. At the time of the Protestant Reformation, Protestant leaders decided not to include these seven Greek books in the Old Testament (because they weren’t written in Hebrew like the rest of the Old Testament) while Catholic leaders decided to retain them since they were important to our Jewish ancestors.

Thousands of years......the RCC makes no claims, what happens after death is between God and his beloved child. The scriptures tell us that God is love, it is a relationship, it is something that grows, like the mustard seed. There is no time after death, time is only here.

One thing I don't understand is how you know she is in hell? If Christ died for her, perhaps like St. Paul who had his Damascus experience is not as uncommon as we think. Like the many Muslims who are now having visions of Jesus, even if they have never even looked at a New Testament. I do believe that we equate God's love and mercy with our own understanding, yet Christ Jesus forgave all on the cross. I to believe that people go to hell, who, I have no idea. I am sure you prayed for her. Jesus talked about people being called at different times in their lives.....perhaps she was called as she was dying and then she would respond.....how....I don't know. I often pray for the dying, lifting them up to the Infinite compassion of Our Lord, deeper and more all encompassing that we ever understanding. Jesus is the Word, the creator of the universe, so I do not believe that he lets souls go as easy as many on this site seem to believe. You are a kind and loving man, I believe you were in her life for a reason..... Peace Mark

Paul's use of fire as a purifying process is what is going on, purgatory is merely a term meaning healing finished by God's love. The Trinity is not in the bible either, that came later. The 'Trinity' is nowhere mentioned, yet it is central to our faith because of long reflection in the Church.....

Trying to bring in another perspective which is valid I believe.

Thank you, I understand your point, but I do believe the scriptures I posted do point to a time of inner healing, all healing is painful, or most of it. I guess I will erase the links, thank you. Peace Mark

Thank you, just sharing don't expect many here to agree with me ;-). Peace Mark

Thank you Wayne. Peace Mark

I believe some form of evolution has taken place.....yet it also shows an intelligence behind it. Peace mark

The reason I love this place is the level of charity that is here.....thank you. peace mark

Purgatory again (another look) I am shy being here. Though I do post, I do not use scripture the way many do on this site. It seems that each person has their own string of scripture quotes and they then face off with another opponent with their grouping of scriptures and then talk or argue and at times scream at each other over each ones interpretation. I think that is fine, it is how things are often done when talking about the bible. Though here the level of charity seems to be very high, so I have come to respect everyone, even those who disagree with me for we are all one in Christ Jesus….or least I believe that. I tend not to us scripture that way; I feel that it is a waste of time and effort, since it is not possible to change anyone’s mind on just about anything. However people do mature and change over the years. Those who do not, their rigidity can isolate them in their surety and they in the end do little good to reach others. We can fail to see others if we think we are in some way infallible in our interpretation of scripture and those who disagree with us simply do not have the Holy Spirit and perhaps they are on the way to hell. How we love to send others to hell. It says something about the human heart, its inner conflict to actually love as Christ tells us, yet to use hell as a way to dispose of those we don’t agree with. I find it a horror if truth be told. Christ Jesus came to save, yet often, Christians want to make hell as full as possible…though Christ told us not to judge for a reason, because we really, really suck at it. To me the term “Purgatory” represent a state of being and not some place of imprisonment. ““The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence”--- John Paul II. God the Father in Christ Jesus is calling all to a loving relationship. All relationships that have any real love in them, and even those with those we struggle with have a purgatorial aspect to them, they bring out our own inner wounds and struggles to be able to love and to be present with others. The more self centered we are, for instance, the deeper the struggle to become free enough to have an actual loving contact with others. This takes humility, the letting go of blame and a radical acceptance that we are not victims if we choose to understand that most of our problems are based on an inability to love. So it is with our relationship with God the Father as revealed to us by Christ Jesus. I believe that like Jacob we wrestle with God. And like Jacob we are wounded when we do that by God, it causes us to limp. We are made aware of our fragility when God slowly heals us of our self centeredness; we are lead to make choices that cause inner struggle and conflict with ourselves. This is another form of purification and death to self…..this is another purgatorial state. In the Gospel of Luke Jesus says this: Luke 3:16-17 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." This verse can be looked at on different levels. One level is that in our own souls, the chaff will be burned away (be healed) by the infinite fire of God’s love, which is unquenchable. St. Paul talks about that as well: “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — each man’s work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) So the experience of purgatory is in actuality Gods love continuing the work of salvation in the soul. As we suffer in this life in the dying to self, so it continues if we do not trust or allow God’s love to fill us. If we fear the letting go, it is grace that allows this to continue in purgatory “The fire of loss is the fire of Hell. The saving fire is the purgative fire of Purgatory. The purgative, saving fire brings a soul to full holiness; for “without holiness, no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14). This is why a soul who desires to dwell with God and glorify God desires to be purified before seeing the face of the Lord. A soul burden with the residuals of sin is encumbered in its ability to glorify God. Through His infinite mercy, God purges the residuals of sin with fire and lovingly draws the soul in. Oh, how our souls should yearn for the fire of Christ’s scared heart, a heart that burns with love and mercy! Oh, to be consumed and purified by the fires of His heart.” I don’t expect this to change any ones mind about the reality of purgatory. However purgatory is still based on God’s saving grace. Souls still being purified are saved by Jesus Christ, it is God who heals and brings his work to completion. I pray for the souls in purgatory because they are still on the way, as I pray for all my brothers and sisters in this world…..Christ calls us each to grow in love and compassion. We are a royal priesthood and Christ Jesus also works in and though us. We are his hands and his feet, his mouthpiece, for we have died and it is Christ Jesus who continues his saving work in our souls, all we need do is to open our hearts and that will lead to praying and loving all others…..judgment is God’s alone, for he is infinite truth and love. So I pray for the salvation of all and am at peace. In judging others, I am only judging myself.

Thank you. Many people and not just Catholics for whatever reason do not deepen their faith through study and prayer. I find it strange that reality. Our faith is our skin, who we are, our souls connection with God. I have always been taught that Jesus is my savior from the beginning. I won't go into sacraments etc., not worth the bother ;-). There are some here however who do believe that because I am Catholic I am going to hell. I don't get upset about it, just sigh and go on. Peace Mark

Arabic-speaking Coptic, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Maronite, evangelical, and Reformed Christians worship Allah, which is simply the word or term for God in another language. Islam does not hold a copyright to the term. In fact, Arab Christians existed before Islam appeared on the scene. Christians who worship Allah number in the millions, and their biblical version of Allah differs from the Qur’anic version. To demean or demonize the word for God in another language does a great disservice to believers who speak that language. Opportunities to win a hearing or dialogue between Christians and Arabic-speaking Muslims vis-à-vis Jesus Christ are also minimized. It is time for all of us, especially Christians, to exercise caution when it comes to attacking the term for God in a language foreign to most of us. No other term exists in Arabic for the God Christians claim to be the one, true God. Western Christians do not normally use Hebrew terms for God in their languages. They cannot expect Arab Christians to use any other term or word for theirs. Allah is equivalent to the English God, the French Dieu, or the Spanish Dios.http://www.equip.org/article/allah-does-not-belong-to-islam/

Well said, thank you. Peace Mark

Lifting quotes out of context is dangerous. Here are some below that state otherwise to what you have said. I am not trying to convince you about what you think of Islam, not my place, nor is it possible ;-)......yet there is always more to be looked at so that our judgments may be fair. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This verse is often quoted to show that Islam is intolerant. O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51) Quran is a complete book of guidance and while studying various issues it should be kept in mind that a particular issue may be discussed over several chapters or several verses in the same chapter. A complete understanding can only be achieved by understanding the whole issue as presented over all the verses and chapters and not by looking at only part of the Quran. God specifically warns us against doing just that, upholding part of the Quran while disregarding the rest. .. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do you reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? – and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Quran 2:85) To understand the issue of befriending the Jews, Christians or people of any other faith, we have to study all the concerned verses from the Quran collectively. Let us look at some other verses about this issue. The following two verses regulate relations with any people, regardless of faith: As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8) God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! (Quran 60:9) From the above verses, we learn that we are only discouraged from befriending those who fight Muslims because of their religion. Now let’s go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it sheds some further light on the issue. And yet you can not see how those in whose hearts there is disease vie with one another for their good will (the hostile Jews and Christians), saying [to themselves], "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." But God may well bring about good fortune [for the believers] or any [other] event of His own devising, whereupon those [waverers] will be smitten with remorse for the thoughts which they had secretly harboured within themselves- (Quran 5:52) During the time of the Prophet when the Jews and Christians were in open conflict with the Muslims, there were some Muslims who were more concerned about maintaining there alliances with the Jews and Christians at the expense of the Muslim community. The above verse is referring to such situations where Muslims with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy. Chapter 5 Verse 57 of the Quran makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends; O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but remain conscious of God, if you are (truly) believers. (Quran 5:57) God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. As such there is no prohibition for Muslims to be friends with Jews, Christians or people of any other faith who are of good character. Quranic verses referring to the righteous Jews and Christians: Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159) And We caused Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those (earlier prophets), confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We sent him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious. (Quran 5:46) Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62) Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114) And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199) The following verse from the Quran capsulates this issue: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

Look to Christ Jesus, have your feelings and fears but don't believe them. Pray about that. Like Peter when he got out of the boat, as long as he looked to Jesus, the waves and winds and lighting did not affect him (you inner emotions etc. are that ocean), but when he looked at his feet he started to sink.....yet when he called out the Lord lifted him up. Jesus is not issue, nor your love of God, it is your self centeredness that is keeping you from having a deeper trust and love of the Lord......be patient, but trust in the end is a choice fueled by grace. Your struggle is a common one I believe.

Allah simply means God. In the East, Christians call God Allah. As for the God question, there is one God. We do have our ideas about God, even Christians seem to worship their own ideas of God. Yet God exist in His own right, no matter what we project on to Him, or even if we do not believe in Him. No one owns God, nor is He some piece of property owned by any one religion, though Jesus is Lord, people who do not this, still worship God, just not in its fullness I believe.

Thank you for your post. I find silence the better course, probably because I am so old. As a Catholic, like Mother Teresa, I am used to being told I am a reprobate and do not seek to defend myself anymore, it is not worth the energy in any case......It gives me something to pray about, you know pouring hot coals my enemies head LOL......Even though many on this forum do not believe it, we are in reality brothers and sister in Christ Jesus, human judgement or simple opinion has nothing to do with it, it is based on the Infinite love and grace of Jesus Christ.....thanks be to God. Peace Mark

The Spirit blows where it will ;-).....her art work is beautiful of course......yet, who knows my friend, discernment is always needed. Peace Mark

People are at different levels of self knowledge. Jesus talked about removing the log in our eye, instead of calling attention the splinter in the eye of the other. The less we know ourselves, the more we can take it out on others. I think you need to stay, work it through instead of seeking to escape. People can be rough, don't you belong to a church ;-). if not , I would recommend it, talk about rough seas. Read the books of acts, there were lots of problems, Paul had his share. Grow where you are planted my friend......you do have a sensitive heart, use it to grow in understanding and compassion. I will pray for you and your ability to grow in patent endurance. peace Mark