learning boy

Hello brothers/sisters! This is a continuation to my first post, ' A Catholic belief-- Worshipping saints? ', as I can't post responses. Check it out here to get further information and not be confused : kwikphilly said: I was surprised to know that "most" of your friends are catholics,that's different.......so,may I ask,how did you come to islam?Or perhaps you asre referring to the acquaintances you made on the internet,just wondering? response: I was raised muslim by an Islamic family. To be more specific, I was raised Shia muslim, one of the two major denominations of Islam, the majority being Sunni Islam. As I grew up I did not touch on many other faiths but around 13 years old my curiosity finally sparked up a thought about our abrahamic religions. I began researching and studying, and my parents also did not mind it at all which was a blessing. And for catholic friends, I meant that in my life at the moment. Most of my school friends / community are catholics so I've learned a fair amount from them. Steven S said: Simply put, the catholics believe that they decide who are and aren't saints based on a process called canonization. This is done posthumously and involves a few steps, such as investigating the life of the person in question, how they lived, their deeds, etc.. It also includes beatification, which is basically a "verification" of a miraculous occurrence being attributed to their intercession after death. Basically, in lay terms, this means that someone was to have prayed for them to intercede with God, after they are dead, and then that prayer is answered, indicating, in the opinion of the catholic church, that the person is in heaven and that God is answering their prayers. This typically has to occur one more time and then, after this process, they are canonized. Not to beat around the bush, none of this is mentioned in the actual bible. The bible mentions saints many times throughout both the old and new testament, but it is either directly plural or in the plural sense with the one instance of the singular version being Philippians 4:21 (Php 4:21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you. ) The bible never mentions a process, at all, like the one mentioned above. The general understanding of the word as it stands amongst evangelical and most general protestant denominations is that the saints are followers of Christ, people whose ultimate faith lays in God. I believe that the greek root in this instance actually means something along the lines of "one who has been made holy" or something along those lines (I fully admit that I am no greek expert by any stretch). All of my brothers and sisters here are saints, as are all the ones who have physically passed on before me. .......... In short, this is a practice based on tradition that has been developed over centuries in the catholic church. There is no biblical basis for either the canonization process or prayer to saints. Whether or not it is idolatry in a technical sense, it is certainly not a biblically rooted practice. .......... response: Very good context! I also see this is how Catholics believe. Now I have one question: Even if intercession is not biblical, is it still fair to deem it wrong or idolatry? I am sure there are many Christian practices that may not be exactly biblical, but I still do not think it negates the idea of intercessions. Intercession may be inaccurate in terms of bible evidence, but is it morally wrong and/or religiously wrong? A fair and just God should say that it isn't; Jesus chose John as a disciple and apostle, John was steadfast on his faith and close to God both physically and spiritually (Jesus even personally praised him during one point in time in the bible), so If I asked Jesus, on behalf of your clean apostle John, to grant me a prayer, why is that wrong? John SAW Jesus and Jesus PRAISED him for his good intentions and motives. If I asked Jesus for something, and mentioned John, and knowing how close John was to Jesus, would that not further facilitate the granting of my prayer? I am reiterating the same question over and over again but I'm just trying to be as clear as possible. Sorry to get into detail, but if the majority Christian faith believe in intercessions (Catholics and denominations of), it gets me kind of curious as to why the minority (Christians; not by much though) would not believe in it. Is it possible to say that half of Christians would not be sent to paradise, even if they believe in Jesus as God and Savior, because they intercede with saints? That would definitely have an impact of how Christians view the atonement and salvation. ( See my first post about this topic)

Hello brothers/sisters! After a fair amount of time spent chatting about this idea with some members, I feel like It would be efficient if I made it a post. In the shortest way possible, the question is : How do Catholics actually view the saints? Some information: It seems that the Catholic belief of saints has been a little misconceived, but nonetheless very controversial. Before touching on how a Catholic 'worships' a saint, I think it is fair to point that some Catholics may have exaggerated their belief of what a saint actually is. If you look in Catholic churches, you may find candles mounted with statues of supposed saints ( reminding us very well of how idols were shown in the older times ) and these sorts. Now one can confidently say that in Christianity, the one lone person who deserves worship is God, our Jesus Christ. Although Catholics tend to observe this as well, I think it is fair to say that maybe we should look at what they actually consider what saints are? Most of my friends are Catholics, and information from them concerning how saints are went like this: Their general view tells me that because saints have a close relationship with God, It is possible to intercede from them, praying towards God, on behalf of them. Some members on the forum told me that this counts as idolatry, because only Jesus deserves to be worshiped and no one can intercede for Jesus Christ. Now I do see why this can initially show offense, but I, not being Catholic nor Christian, may find a better understanding of it. I will give an example of how a Catholic actually may perceive the intercession of a saint: We will have three people. Ben, Bob , and Bill . Ben is the moderator of a website, and Bob and Bill are sub-moderators. Now I come in, wanting to also be a sub-moderator of this site. I will say to Ben " Hello Ben! On behalf of Bob and Bill (the sub-moderators of the site) may I be a sub-moderator as well? " --- You will see I haven't actually asked Bob and Bill for anything. The question was entirely directed to Ben , but I merely referenced Bob and Bill because as they are sub-moderators to Ben, they will have a better name to themselves then If I used somebody like Bart( Bart is our fourth person, being a normal member). Ben chose Bob and Bill to be sub-moderators, for their knowledge and skill, and so referencing them may give me a better chance of Ben accepting my proposal of being a sub-moderator as well. Does this example above count as idolatry? I will appreciate feedback and criticism where applies. I will apologize beforehand for any Catholic who took offense to anything in this thread -- I do not have all the knowledge and I could have definitely misconstrued something. My aim is to clear up possible confusion with how Catholics view a saint, because in our Abrahamic religions, idolatry is not welcome.