JesusisGod2

Hi JC, Praise the Lord!!! I have heard that Autraila has some pretty harsh country. I attend a "Jesus only" church and we most definitely have some disagreements. And I must admit it is sometimes hard to attend, I also see many good things as well, although I feel God is now calling me to move on. We believe in a lot of the same things, such as the power of the Holy Spirit, The gifts of the Spirit, etc.. but there are definite issues that I am really troubled in my heart over. And yet there is a lot of good I see as well. Because we differ on certain doctrine I am sometimes made to feel "second rate" and even to the point where it causes one to doubt their salvation,and this is where I must draw the line, for whatever is not of faith is sin. They also seem to believe in replacement theology, do you get this opinion when you have spoken with them? Don't get me wrong, I have been fed there, but I Don't get out of it what I once did. I do not understand why some want to take away the simplicity of the gospel! I have this felling in my heart or should I say drive to move on start attending a Messianic fellowship, but the closes one is about an hour and then some. But I feel this is where I will be heading. Ever been to one? I cant help but feel God has something there for me. May God richly bless you in your pursuit of Him. By The way, your english is great, you should hear my Italian In Jesus Kevin

You say this as if there are no arguments, disagreements or confusions in interpretation of what Scripture teaches on this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Neb, I believe that there are a few references to out of the body experiences in scripture. I really don't feel that it is so much off topic either, for it does give us a look at the spirit and the body and the separation. The following seems to refer to it, or at best spirit travel of which they have a name for it that doesn't come to mind at the moment. Now whether Philip found himself in the eunuch in body or simply in spirit, one things for cartain, he was snatched away and the eunuch saw him no more. Can you picture that Acts 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea. Its not really a good argument for an out of the body experience, but it is something out of the ordinary. The following seems to be more on this level: 2 Cor 12 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- Many believe that if this was indeed Paul, that it happened when he was stoned: Acts 14:19 But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 20 But while the disciples stood around him, he got up and entered the city The next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe. Now there are two assumptions on this 1) that the person who went to the third heavens was indeed Paul 2) that this was the timing of it in acts 14. Either way, it seems to some what support at least one out of the body experience. Another that seems to imply an out of the body experience can be found in Revelation. If you look in chapter 1 we see John is still on the Island and has a vision or just plain sees Jesus: Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, We see at this point John is still on the island and is full of the Spirit of God. 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, John at this point is still on the island and still in his body when he fell at the feet of Jesus, its interesting that this is when he recieved the revelation about the seven churches he was still on earth. Now here in chapter 4 is where it seems to imply that he left his body and entered into heaven: 1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. This is after he received the revelation of the churches and was very clearly in the body, in chapter 4, it appears to me anyway that he was in spirit only and not body. I am sure there are more scripture that can give hints to the same. Whether these support out of the body, I dont know, to me they hint at it anyway. In Jesus Kevin

Hear! Hear! I am in agreement as well, and also agree that we need to remember to pray for Her In Jesus Kevin

Hi Jc, Great post, I haven"t had time to look up all the references of scripture you gave, but I thought it was very good. Have you studied Hebrew? Just curiuos. In the very beginning during creation God diplays Himself in plural form Elohim. How is the weather in good ole Austraila? My brother in law is from there and now lives in Puerto Rico. God bless and G'day Kevin

HI Omega, You are right as far as in Revelation it says nothing to that effect and I myself just assumed that to be the reason that God commissions them. They will be the first fruit from among the Jews during this time and from other scripture elsewhere where it mentions Israel turning back to their God is what gives me the assumption that these are those who do the evangelizing.. Me too brother. I guess thats why all the questions. I most definately believe in post-trib/pre-wrath rapture, but Revelation is a book that the more you read it the more it helps to understand other books. I believe it is a book that God wants us to embrace and read prayerfully and He will supply the understanding. There are some things that we will not begin to understand until they start to unfold. I think I'll just sit back and read yours and others responses for a while. In Jesus Kevin

Interesting response Fisher of men, But its just not as simple as you have tried to portray it. John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. Here Jesus asks of the Father to keep us in His name that we may be one even as they are one We are made up of many individual persons and yet we are one in Christ, the same applies to the Godhead, 3 individuals, one in thought, action, purpose, etc. Paul throughout the Epistles addresses both The Father and Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit, and in individual manner. Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [/COLOR] Romans 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), Its just not as simple as you portray it to be. What is so "non biblical" see God as three individuals and yet understand them to be one? I understand that the title of "trinity" is found no where in the bible, however, it does show three individuals of the Godhead. Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; We see here God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit pictured here in the stoning of Stephen. No where in the scriptures does it say that God is one person, it says that the Lord thy God is One, and I don't believe that anyone who believes in the "trinity" claims three individuals to be one person. We believe three individuals to be One God. The very first mention of God "Elohim" allows for the trinity, the form of the word is plural and would explain the let Us and We, mentioned in Genesis. Your teaching sounds Apostolic. In Jesus kevin

Wow, I just dont see that happenning for some reason, do you?

Hi Biblestudent, Please understand that I am not out to gain any "triumph" save that triumph over death that comes through Jesus Christ at the resurrection. I come to these boards to gain understanding and to fellowship with believers who share in the same joy salvation through the Lord Jesus! Let us lift Him up!!!!! As far the work you suggest and the pattern you suggest I follow, I have done that and understand how a sentence is structured and I believe that Romans is pretty clear on the issue. To disagree on an issue is no big deal, however, rudeness is never acceptable. In Jesus Kevin

Old Timer, Interesting post-very good stuff, Did you do the research yourself on this? However, I still dont know if I can quite agree with all of it. I am inclined to believe that the soul does sleep, but as I mentioned, it is the spirit I am wrestling with. Romans 14:5 .............Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 2 Corinthians 12 1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. Most believe that it was Paul himself that was caught up into the third heavens, of which he also states that is where whomever it was, was caught up in paradise, the same place that Christ had promised that the theif would be that very day with Christ. Christ Kingdom will indeed be set uo here on earth during the millinal reign. But in the above scripture, it does not equate paradise with the kindom and it most definately states that it is located in the third heavens, while the kingdom will be set up here on earth. The theif ask of Christ to remember him when Christ entered into His Kingdom, Christ does not say that today you will be with me in the same, he says today you will be with me in Paradise. Paul for whatever reasons is not permitted to repeat what he heard and does not elaborate on what he saw (assuming of course that it was Paul). Here are a few interesting scriptures that I found as I am starting my Study on the spirit. Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Isa 26:18 We were pregnant, we writhed in labor, We gave birth, as it seems, only to wind We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth, Nor were inhabitants of the world born. 19Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. Now I could be reaching here and probably am. But what I see in these scriptures is that the spirit returns to God and at the resurrection it is reunited with the body Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;In that very day his thoughts perish. So again I see good arguements for both sides of the debate. It isnt crystal clear thats for sure, at least not to me. The important thing is that we be included in the first resurrection, whether we completely sleep, soul and spirit or not. And of course this can only be accomplished through Jesus and the faith that He has supplied us with to believe in Him. I just had a hernia operation and they gave me a spinal and something of a drug that all I remember was them sticking the needle in me, me laying down, and them cleaning up after the operation. Perhaps it will be just like that. Thanks for sharing Old Timer, I will continue to research this, but must admit, as I mentioned it isnt really crystal clear in scriptures to me. In Jesus Kevin

Hi Rob, Thats Ok, just as long as you aint lookin for change

hmh, You out there?

But unfortunately even then there were divisions, which is why Paul addressed it and ther always will be until the return of our Lord. Not to say that we shouldnt strive towards unity and perfection. Look at each of the epsitles and you will see Paul addressing different issues where there was obvious differences of opinion. Sometimes differences are healthy and are necessary The problems arise not really as much from interpretation as from application. Each of us are different and have lead different lives, so will see a different application of the scriptures that speak to us, that we understand and apply to our to reasoning. Some see going to movies as ok, some see it as very harmful and it very well may be to them. Some see having a beer as ok, some might have been a former drunk and see it as very harmful and so on. it appears that the gray areas more than anything are what cause divisions. this why Paul says: 1 Cor 8:9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble. Even when Jesus walked there were divisions, even amongst the Apostles. Paul and Peter had differences. We will one day be perfect.

Hi Old Timer, Wow neat, this has been very fruitful OT I appreciate your patience. Amen, this is where I am having trouble as well, perhaps our whole being does sleep, but then I am confused by the references that imply otherwise. In Jesus Kevin

The problem here is that we have different people using the same Scriptures and coming out with different conclusions. So, when you are talking about "what the Bible teaches" - well, which conclusion is what the Bible teaches? So, the only correct conclusion has to be the one that actually is found to be true, to actually work in actual life, wouldn't it? So, if it is true that people do leave their bodies upon death, and have conscious memories of things they did, some even describing accurately what they've seen (unlike what would occur in a dream) - than how can "soul sleep" be true? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello Neb, I know what your saying, and I will try to explain why I have come to the conclusions that I have. Although I am not set in stone that these are in fact correct, it is just what I see today and could be totally wrong.. As far as the example you have given of the soul leaving the body, I don't think it was the soul at all, but the spirit. And I believe that this is where the confusion of the subject of this thread. I had an out of the body experience and I was not dead. I would go further into it and I'll keep that as my own treasured experience for now. I guess what I mean by the soul sleeps is that this is the part of us that is in need of redemption, our spirit has been born again. Also the ay we understand sleep and the reference to sleep in scriptures could be different, I don't know. David makes mention many times of the soul and redemption, I have posted some in my last post. We all agree that there will be a resurrection of the death as a matter of fact there will two resurrection, one to life and the resurrection to judgement....pray that we are in the first Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. It also appears to me that soul is what is resurrected and given a new body at the resurrection and rejoined with our spirit which is what is with Christ. In any respect, the body that dies is not the body that is resurrected. 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. So if it is not our body that sleeps, for it returns to the dust, I am assuming it is the soul, again this is just an assumption what does? I agree that no where that I have read does it specifically say that the soul sleeps but something does sleep and therefore this is just my thoughts and not doctrine In revelation 20 it seems to point to the soul: 4a Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded John says here that sees the souls of those who have died in Christ 4b because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; 4c and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. They came to life, what came to life here? It appears to be saying the soul came to life. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Above we see that the souls came to life and now it gives the timing "This is the first resurrection" Again this is not gospel nor doctrine, I am just showing where I have come to the conclusion that I have about the soul. I could be totally whacked, I don't know. Now where my confusion lies is about the spirit and I plan to do a study on this and perhaps it might even change what I think I know about the soul All in all, the more I look into this, I am just fascinated and in awe of how we are so carefully and wonderfully made. God is just so Awesome Praise You Jesus. Kevin

Hello Old Timer, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond. I think this has been a very interesting and fruitful study thus far. I would like to address the following:

Hear! Hear! To believe in God is not a religion, its called faith.

Hey Steve, I looked at your website, (Your not as tall as I pictured you Just kidding) looks good. As soon as I return to work I wlll consider it, looks good and as you say they are questions that come up frequently and I would be interested in what you have to say. Hope your book does well!! God Bless, Kevin

Who's Pastoreric? Just kidding. I also read the Good News Bible once in a while (Any one remeber that one?), I also like to read the the Living Bible once in a while as well especially the Psalms. If we read with prayer and a view to truth, God will reveal this to us. I would agree that the Living Bible shouldnt be used for proving doctrine though. In Jesus Kevin

Hi Sheya,,, Actually you are correct the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are titles and yet Jesus said be baptized in the Name of. (I dont want to get onto the topic of baptism here, but do want to point out the power in the Name of Jesus.) The deciples seemed to understand this, if you look through the book of acts you see that they wre all baptized in the Name of Jesus , not one plkace does it show that they were baptized in the titles of Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. Jesus appears to be the Name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirt: John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. NASB Notice Jesus ask the Father to keep us in His (The Fathers) Name, The Name which The Father has given the Son, that Name being Jesus. Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 3:16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. Acts 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. I appreciate what you said above, but He really wasnt pointing to the title as much as the emphasis is on the Name, Be baptized in the Name of the Father Son, And Holy Spirit. In actuality, this isexactly what He was saying and the deciples seemd to understand it in this light as well. I dont want to get too far off topic here, I just wanted to point out that the whole of the Godhead is realized and seen in Jesus Christ. John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Godhead is not a simple thing to understand as some would lead one to believe, However, I tend to agree with you on the "trinity" There is God The Father, God The Son, god The Holy Spirit and yet They are One.

Hello Hmh, I attend an Apostolic Pentecostal church where they believe in "Jesus Only". I myself believe in the "Trinity" of the Godhead. We leave our disagreement with God and depend on Him to change our way of thinking to one or the other, so far that has not happened. there are other views we disagree over as well, but not to the point of breaking fellowship. On the other hand there is so much we do agree on such as salvation through Christ, The power of prayer, the ressurection, love for those who come in the name of The Lord, etc... This church is filled with the Spirit and Christ is worshipped here, truth is spoken here, God is worshipped and praised and offered sacrifices of thanksgiving here. The Holy Spirit convicts, edifies, loves, and directs our attention on Jesus. God is either there or there is a pretty good imposter I have been to some "Trinity" churches who say they believe in the Holy Spirit and yet deny His power. They sit alll quiet afraid to sneeze and yet will go horse rooting for their favorite football team. And have been to some on fire Pentecostal, "Trinity" believeing churches as well. I love celebrating the victory Christ has won on the cross Thank you Jesus!!!! This to me is something that is not an important issue to seperate over. Jesus Himself said that those who believe in the Father, will be led to the Son. God has bestowed all honor to the Son. I do not believe that one is unsaved if they do not believe in the "Trinity" as long as one believes in Jesus. Paul states this in Romans 10: 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Now I will again state that I myself believe in the "trinity" and see evidence in scripture that indicate as such. Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal by the way? In Jesus Kevin

I have been through this debate more than once and will only comment as to why I believe it will be two people and not two testaments or groups such as Christians and Jews who have converted to Christ as some in other debates have speculated. Who it will be, I have no idea and will not speculate. Rev 11:7-9 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." They will be prophets and there will be two of them. "Clothed in sackcloth" typical dress of prophets in the old testament in particular. John the baptist was dressed in like manner. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth. Completely takes away the mystery of the candelsticks and olive trees as to who these two are. If you look the two candlesticks and two olive trees they add up to four and yet there are only two prophets. They are symbolic of these two prophets. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. They will have supernatural powers from God. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. This is why many speculate that the two will be Moses and Elijah. they performed these same feats when they walked the earth, however, I don't think this is the case or at least the scriptures aren't specific as to whom they will be and I don't want to speculate. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. The beast would never be able to overcome and put to death the testimonies of our God, but he will be able to overcome these two prophets and kill them. The church will face similar fates, but not all will be put to death, nor will all the Jews. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. This says that their bodies will lie in the street which shows they are human, they are not called groups or testaments It specifically mentions bodies and street, not streets, of the great city. The great city being Jerusalem. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. Here again it refers to the dead bodies that they would not let be buried in a tomb. If it were two testaments of God, there would be no death and need of burial. Nor does it mention two groups. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Here they are called prophets and again it specifically mentions two of them, not two groups. 11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. The breath of life from God came back into them and they stood on their feet, again showing it is two actual people and not something symbolic. Some try to always see something that has spiritual meaning to it when the literal meaning is right before ones eyes. I am not saying this is the case here. But in order to understand the spiritual applications, one must first look literally at what is being said. I do feel however that the scriptures are pretty clear here as to the fact these will be two actual people, prophets in the streets of Jerusalem, perhaps trying to win the Nation of Israel back to their God, witnessing to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah Which in itself is pretty amazing. If I am not mistaken, you cant do this today in Israel and this could be why people want them put to death. Just my two cents. In Jesus Kevin

Amen, isnt this how this whole mess started anyway? with one person using the courts to rid the schools of religous influence?

Hello Old Timer, As I was studying this subject last night and asking God for answers, one more question came up. The question I have is concerning Pauls letter to the Phillipians, What do you suppose Paul meant by the following? 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Paul knew to remain here on earth meant very rewarding labor, but he also mentions that to depart from this life means that he would be with the Lord. What are your thoughts on these verses of scripture? In Jesus Kevin