OldCoot

Whatever you say. The guys who knew the Apostles or where closely associated with those who know the Apostles wrote that they were resurrected and taken to the Father. And nothing you provided is definitive proof to the contrary. So I will have to go with the testimony of those guys back then compared to folks 19 centuries later, totally removed from the events of the time. Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Now, that means specifically that JB is greater than Moses, Aaron, Adam, Noah, Abraham, King David, the Prophets, and on and on. He is surely redeemed. But his position in that redemption is not in the Ekklesia of Messiah. JB is the last of the OT Prophets. He will still be rewarded for faithful service, but he is not in the unique body called the Ekklesia of Messiah. One cannot read the epistles of Paul, John, Peter and not see that the unique assembly built around Messiah is different than any other that preceded it. Well, not unless they have an agenda. And I disagree with your interpretation of Hebrews 11:40, Hebrews 11:39-40 (NKJV) And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. It does not say that no one is made perfect before or after as in a resurrection, it says apart from.... that means by no other means. Just like if I get a flat tire on my pickup truck, there is no way I am driving it down the road again "apart from" changing the tire. The context of the passage of Hebrews 11 is our perfection made thru the promise of the Messiah by our faith in Him. It is not talking about resurrections at all. The entire chapter is talking about the faith that leads to redemption. The Faith of the Patriarchs, the Faith of Moses, etc. A redeeming faith, not a resurrecting faith...which sounds kinda weird as it seems to put the cart in front of the horse. We need to have a faith that leads to redemption before we stand any chance of putting on perfection (resurrection). Context is everything in hermeneutics just like location is everything in real estate.

Well, I didn't change my mind. In my original post referring to this issue, I said literally.... Daniel 11 into Daniel 12. You just took the opportunity to haggle over a specific piece of Daniel 11. That there is a dual reference is pretty clear. Many prophecies have dual fulfillments. But it is abundantly clear, Daniel 11 into Daniel 12 is talking of the end, and it ties into the 70th Week in Daniel 9:27 as expounded upon by Yeshua and Paul.

I would agree with that observation. But where folks get all goofed up is "what law"? And for many, there is only one law and one covenant in the OT. They fail to differentiate the various covenants and who they apply to. When one says "the law", they need to delineate what law they are talking about.... the Noachide Law or the Sinai/Mosaic Law. The first applies to gentiles and the latter applies to Hebrews. Even gentiles living in Israel back in the day were only required to adhere to the Noachide Laws. The Mosaic Law was not binding on them. There was even a specific Noachide court that would handle gentile issues that came up. Stuff like non kosher meat could be given to gentiles with no violation. Even in Israel, if a gentile wanted to eat shell fish and have a bacon cheese burger, it would be proper, even though it was forbidden for a Jew under the Mosaic Law . The early church got this goofed up also. The early church was comprised mostly of Jewish believers. When the gentiles started coming in, it was argued that they were the same as Jewish proselytes and had to conform to the Mosaic Law. Well, the Council of Jerusalem headed by James emphatically said no, the gentile believers do not have to conform to the Mosaic Law and that they are still under the Noachide Law. Paul makes that abundantly clear throughout his letters as well. He tells Jewish believers to not give up their Jewishness, and he tells gentile believers to stick with their position under the Noachide Law. Paul doesn't use the literal term "Noachide", but if you look at what James and Paul tell the gentiles they must observe, it is requirements of the Law given to Noah in Genesis 9. The "Noachide Law". Puts a stop to all the guilt tripping and such that goes on about having to observe the Shabbat and whatever.

Some of Daniel 11, but from verse 36 onward into Daniel 12, it takes some real scripture gymnastics to not equate it with the antichrist character. While there was an abomination of desolation done by Antiochus, that event has a dual fulfillment per Yeshua (Matthew 24:15) Daniel 9:27 (NKJV) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 11:31 (NKJV ) And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. Daniel 11:36-37 (NKJV) Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Matthew 24:15-16 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Seems pretty tight to me. One can fit Antiochus into Daniel 11 up to a point, but then the text is clearly referring to the end times. And it ties into Daniel's 70th week along with what Yeshua and Paul were referring to.

I have been free from the Sinai Covenant since before I was born. I am not Jewish nor am I a proselyte to Judaism. If one studies it out, I as a gentile am forbidden to do what is prescribed in the Sinai Covenant. What I am obligated to keep is the Noachide laws. And the Council of Jerusalem headed by James affirmed that and Paul also taught that. The Sinai covenant also makes that clear. So, Yeshua did free me from the penalty of the Law, tetelostai.... paid in full. But now that I am a believer, nothing changes in regards to what law I am to observe. Just like before, I am obligated to stick to the requirements of the Noachide Laws just like James and Paul laid out. Life is so much simpler when one just studies the scripture.

I just finished watching a 3 part investigative series on One America News done by Chanel Rion. Man, if you haven't, you need to see these reports. What she uncovered in corruption between Bidens, State Department, and the stealing from the Ukranian people and the U.S. people is monumental. The level of corruption with the Bidens, the Democrat National Committee, the State Department under Obama, the lies and deception is totally off the charts. It solidly shows the real corruption is not with Trump.

I am not convinced of quite that tight of a conclusion. The first seal, the rider has a "bow". Many of the Greek dictionaries are a little vague on what that implies. So, using the hermeneutic principles of "law of first mention" and "expositional constancy", if we look at the first occurrence of a "bow" in scripture (Genesis 9) it is associated with a covenant. And given that it is a covenant that is affirmed that seems to be the trigger point for the start of the 70th week of Daniel, it seems closer to the idea that the 1st seal is the start of the period. And It seems that it is that affirmation of the covenant that ties the revealing of the son of perdition / antichrist character. Daniel 9, Daniel 11, 2 Thessalonians 2. So I would see the removal of the righteous as being before the covenant is affirmed as you state, but before the 1st seal as opposed to before the 6th. Doesn't mean I am right, just that the ties are there.

It is a spirit of antichrist, that is no doubt that has been at work since before the ink was dry on the NT. But given that the scripture talks about a real individual in both OT and NT with a long string of various titles, I would tend to doubt that the "antichrist" is just a force, spirit, whatever. And the trigger of when this guy is revealed is when he affirms the covenant with Daniel's people.... the Hebrews. Given the turmoil in Israel, there are many there that have stated they would make a pact with the devil if it guaranteed peace and safety. And they weren't being facetious about it either. And according to Daniel and Revelation, it is a pact that "guarantees" their safety. But is will be deception and will be broken.

It is true that we will suffer persecution, but nowhere does it say we are to suffer the indignation of the Lord. After all, anyone who is redeemed is already bought and paid for and has passed from death to life. There is no condemnation for those in Messiah. And the persecution and tribulation of those days, it is of the Lord. That it it is a psychotic individual infused by Satan who is at the helm down here doesn't negate that. The Lord has used despots in the past to bring forth His judgements and wrath. Sargon of Assyria and Nebechudnezzar of Babylon come to mind. Many early church writers, some of who knew the Apostles personally, claim a removal of the righteous that will occur before the tribulation that comes upon those who are on the earth. Irenaeus who personally knew the Apostle John clearly stated that in his treatise "Against Heresies" While not a canonical text, the Book of Enoch is quoted in the NT so it is a credible text to glean little nuggets from. It says that the removal or "rapture" will occur before the tribulation of the end time. And it even gives the reason why.... to be a warning sign to those on the earth to cause many to repent. (Ancient Book of Enoch 50:1-2) And a copy of Enoch was discovered in the Qumran Scrolls dating to around 150-100 BC. So it was not influenced by Christian thought on the issue. As far as suffering persecution, one of the signs that some of the early church writers wrote about was the increase of persecution of Christians by other Christians that will immediately precede the end time tribulation. Just going thru many threads on this forum, especially those dealign with eschatology, and seeing the level of attacks some folks who claim to be Christian level against others, those early church writers may be right.

Daniel expounded upon it in Chapter 11-12 talking about much of what Daniel 9:27 is, even saying it is the time of the end, especially Daniel 11:20 onward, tying the two together with the Abomination of Desolation that occurs at the mid point of the week in verses 30-31. Also talking about Michael the archangel standing up which ties into Revelation 12. Continuing along that line, this abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and Daniel 9:27 (the 70th week) is linked to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, a clear reference to the end time and clear tying the ribbon of the 70th week..... Daniel 9:27 (NKJV) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 11:31 (NKJV) And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. Daniel 11:37 (NKJV) He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. No one did that before the temple was destroyed in 70AD. And no one since because there has not been a temple standing since. So the entire reference of the 70th week of Daniel 9, amplified in Daniel 11-12, and Paul showing that link in 2 Thessalonians 2, it has to be tied to a future end time period.

Well, saints are mentioned 34 times at least in the OT. Do those make up the body of Messiah as Paul frequently refers to the unique Ekklesia / Church established by Messiah? I don't think so. John the Baptist, I would consider him redeemed and therefore a saint. But Yeshua said.... Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. That means John is considered greater than Abraham, Moses, David, the Prophets, etc. Yet, he is considered less than even the lowest in the kingdom. That is the clearest example showing that while all are redeemed by Yeshua, they are all not of the same group or classification. John was the last of the OT Prophets. He is not of the unique Body of Messiah Ekklesia. And what of the "saints" of Matthew 27 that rose shortly after Yeshua's resurrection. Were those of the Body of Messiah, the unique Ekklesia / Church that was established 49 days later? Again, I don't think so. Especially from the comments about these from many early church writers. There are saints from the time of Adam thru the GT period. They are all redeemed by the sacrifice and redemption of Messiah. But they are all not of the same group. And that seems to be the problem. It is a matter of ecclesiology, the study of the Church. What it is, who it is, and what is unique about it. And when one gets a real grasp on the ecclesiology, then it is not a stretch to deal with the idea that the Body of Messiah / Ekklesia / Church is not who the "saints" of Revelation are a part of. If they were considered that, we should see some reference or illustration in Revelation that equates them with the Body of Messiah. But there is none.

What is being revealed in many of the manuscripts finally being disclosed and translated from the Qumran discoveries (Dead Sea Scrolls) is that the Essenes of that community also seem to hold to many NT Christians concepts, including a pre time of Jacob's trouble gathering of the righteous. More ancient pre-Yeshua scrolls are coming to light that also imply a pre-tribulational view of a gathering/rapture. Including one that is estimated to have been originally written around 1000 BC around the time of King David. The terminology is a little different in some of these scrolls for sure, but it is interesting that since the Essene scrolls are circa 100-150 BC and definitely have the old Hebrew style script, they were not influenced by any early church writers thoughts on the matter. Even Darby was not involved. It is not proof positive of a pre-trib position, but it does shed light that even before Yeshua the idea was well known and written about. It really shoots down the idea that it is a recent invention or it is so far out in left field that it qualifies as a hallucination. And given the other writings of the Essenes and their view of the coming Messiah and other doctrine, I feel real good about being aligned with them. There is quite a bit of reasoned speculation that John the Baptist hung out with these Essenes frequently.

That letter was written to Hebrews, not the church. The name if the book says that. If you think it is for the believing church, then you feel that if someone turns from the Lord, they can never be renewed again. That is not so. Yeshua was always talking about lost sheep, prodigal sons, etc. there is always renewal available for one who turns away. If you look at the preceding text of Hebrews, the writer is taking great pains to explained how Yeshua (Jesus) is greater than Moses, the Torah, Angels, the Patriarchs, etc. if these folks were already believers, they would already know that and it would be silly to explain it in such detail again. what is going on in Chapter 6 is quite simple. The writer is Hebrew. The audience is Hebrew. What he is explaining is that Yeshua is greater than all these things and now that they have been enlightened and know this, if they turn away from that truth there is no other means of redemption. It is their one shot. Nothing else will save them. ”tasted of the heavenly gift” is similar to Yeshua “tasting” the wine/gall offered Him while on the Cross. He did not take it in. Likewise, these Hebrews the letter had been written to had not taken in or accepted the Gospel of Yeshua, the Heavenly Gift. the book is an exceptional example of scripture apologetics. It makes one of the best cases for who Yeshua is and how the Hebrews should turn to Him. I am convinced it will be one of the foundational books during the tribulation period or “time of Jacob’s trouble” per Jeremiah

Only a distinction.

The point was that “after these” (meta houtos) of Revelation 4:1 matches the outline established by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19 since the Ekklesia / Church is not mentioned again in Revelation till the final salutations. while everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is “for” the church, not all of it is “about” the Ekklesia / Church. As so aptly outlined in a Doctrinal dissertation by Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology), Israel is the focus of 5/6ths of the Bible. The Prophets and the Revelation after Chapter 3 centers on Israel and this climatic end time that is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” by Jeremiah. All redeemed are done so thru the redemption of Messiah, but not all redeemed are Ekklesia / Church. That unique body of redeemed that constitutes the Body of Messiah. Job is redeemed, but is not of the Body of Messiah. Yeshua said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, but of all those that came before him, there is none greater than John. That would include Abraham, Moses, and David. It is not a redemption issue, it is a positional classification issue. And nowhere in scripture does it place those who become redeemed during the unique end time tribulation period as part of that unique Body of Messiah. Even the judgement of the nations in Joel 3 and Matthew 25 does not equate those declared righteous as being part of the Body of Messiah as the Ekklesia / Church is. So, it is more of a ecclesiology issue than a eschatological issue.

Addressed in previous post discussing 2 Thessalonians 2

Except you didn't bring the Torah into it. The passages you quoted are from the Tanakh. Daniel is not in the Torah. The OT and the NT are those two witnesses as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17. We can't just decide for ourselves who the two witnesses are to support any matter. The passage from Daniel you use and with Matthew is correct. I am convinced that they are addressed to Daniel's people, the Hebrews. Can you provide a verse from Revelation that mentions the Church after Chapter 3? None except the final salutation by John in the Book. Christians don't need to be made white, they already are. It is unredeemed that need to be made white, and that comes by belief and trust in the Messiah. What makes Christians white? By your assertion, it is what we do or have to go thru. I would contend it is what Messiah has done. A believer is made white by the blood of the Lamb. Anything else is some sort of purgatory type of view that is totally unscriptural. Like we have to prove we are worthy. Well, the scripture says none of us is worthy and none of us can make ourselves worthy. That would be a works based righteousness. Only the Messiah who can cleanse the individual and make them white. It is because we are unworthy and only He can save that we run to Him. It goes to my point in an earlier post that determining the Ekklessia / Church in relation to the Great Tribulation period is a matter of ecclesiology more so than eschatology. If one does not have a clear understanding of who the church is in relationship to the Messiah, then it can lead to all sorts of distortions. The outline of Revelation is laid out in Chapter 1.... Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. What John had seen was the vision of the Son of Man, and then was told to write. What John wrote about regarding the things which are is the churches. Never mentioned again after Chapter 3. So the "things which take place after this (these)" meta houtus is tied to Revelation 4:1 "After these things" meta houtus. The letters are not only to real individual churches in John's day, but the order in which they are presented in Chapters 2 and 3 seem to lay out the history of the church. Each one a description of the major characteristic of a period of church history while still all the churches of each period exhibiting some features of all the churches mentioned. Will there be believers after the ekklesia / church is removed? Of course! There have been believers since the dawn of man on this planet. But they are not all the ekklesia / church / body of Messiah / the royal priesthood etc. They are all redeemed the same way, but that doesn't mean they are in the same group. In chapter 4, the 24 elders are shown at the throne room of God, sitting on thrones of their own. The only other mention of 24 in scripture is when David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24. 1 Peter 2:9 states that we in the body of Messiah are a royal priesthood [ kings and priests ], a holy nation, His own special people. Isaiah 26 is about as clear as it gets that the righteous, both dead and living at the time, will be removed and hidden in their chambers that I believe are being prepared by Yeshua now (John 14) in the House of His Father [ heaven ]. And they are hidden there before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. The Isaiah 26 passage, the timing of these events is the great tribulation period when it ties into the Jeremiah. The focus of the entire period is national, corporate Jacob / Israel. Not the church. The two witnesses are not of the church. The 144,000 are not of the church, they are of Jacob/Israel. Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child Is in pain and cries out in her pangs, When she draws near the time of her delivery, So have we been in Your sight, O Lord. Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's [ Israel ] trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. Matthew 24:21 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" Yeshua (Jesus) cannot return until national, corporate Israel acknowledges its sin of rejecting Him, turns to Him, and petitions for His return. And it is the GT period that is what drives them to that point. And the ekklesia / church is not even factored in. The church is not the focus, even any who are redeemed during that time is not the focus. it is national, corporate Jacob/Israel that is the focus. In Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, Matthew 24, and on and on. I still contend that how we approach these things and how we line them up is a matter of ecclesiology as much or more than eschatology.

And I addressed that with the post that included comments from Greek Scholars. Prior to the NT period, apostasia could mean "departure" or "distance" in some contexts (Liddel and Scott). After the NT period, apostasia can mean "departure" also in some contexts (Lampe). There is no justification to assume that it doesn't carry the meaning of "departure" in the NT depending on context. Only one time in the NT does the noun apostasia definitively mean a spiritual departure, Acts 21:21. In 15 times, the verb form of apostasia, aphistemi, only 3 occurrences imply a spiritual departure. 75% of the time it refers to a spatial, distance, physical departure.

Well, let's look at daily use of "run". Jane went on a "run" (noun) See Jane "run" (verb) Both have equivalent meanings. The key in real estate is location, location, location. In scripture hermeneutics, it is context, context, context. And the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 as well as the general contest of both of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians is our uniting, gathering, etc to the Lord. Paul does not discuss one time in both letters about a departure from the faith or rebellion. He does in other letters, but not in the same context as the 2 letters to the Thessalonians. He tells the Thessalonians to "stand fast", but he does not warn them about spiritual departure in the church.

Your contention is overruled by the following. I did say Dr. Woods said "game, set, match" , but I also said many Greek scholars also side with "depart". Here are a few of them, all recognized and respected leaders in their field of study...... In actuality, the Greek noun apostasia, can in some contexts refer to a physical departure. We know this to be the case since Liddell and Scott, a well-known Greek lexicon, uses the following terms to define apostasia: “rebellion against God, apostasy, departure, disappearance, distance. The noun form allows for apostasia as a simple departure in the classical period, proved by examples from Liddell and Scott...If one says that this is not important because the meaning is only classical or ancient and thus lost its meaning by the time of the New Testament, then I may turn to the same root meaning of apostasia in the patristic era immediately following the New Testament period, as indicated in the definitions for the noun form in Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon. Although the noun used in the sense of spatial departure is not the normal meaning...during New Testament times, the word is found with this meaning in time periods before and after the New Testament era, and it is likely to have been understood this way at least sometimes Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following... The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13) Paul Lee Tan stated the following.... What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Kenneth Wuest, a premier Greek scholar of the 20th century and chair of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades, added the following contextual support to taking apostasiaas a physical departure: But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period

do you actually read the scriptures posted? Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. the only thing I stated is that this entering their chambers has to occur before hand. I also stated that we can debate the merits of a pre-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath position, but the fact remains, before the indignation (judgements) come upon the earth, the righteous are hidden in their chambers being prepared by Yeshua as we write these things (John 14). How long before, look two posts preceding this one.

Elect in Christ, that is true. But the Hebrew people are also the elect of the Lord per scripture. elect does not mean justified. It means set apart. Messiah is also called the Lord's Elect in the OT. So then, is Yeshua (Jesus) a Christian? No. But is He the Lion of the Tribe of Judah? Most definitely.

This passage of 2 Thessalonians 2, the wording is not a "rebellion" or "falling away" as is shown in most translations since the KJV. The "apostasia" in verse 3 simply means departure. Without a subject to describe what is being departed from, it stands on it own. As per.... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. And Paul emphasized this further later... 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. Every English translation prior to the KJV used departure. Nothing about what is being departed from. The context of the passage is laid out in verse 1.... 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that is the specific context. In the general context of both 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians combined, Paul doesn't even discuss a rebellion, falling away, or similar. In fact, every chapter of 1 Thessalonians concludes with a reference to our being joined with the Lord, especially in.... 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV Strong's) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. Paul didn't really start to address falling away, departure from the faith, etc issues until later in his ministry. The Thessalonians letters were early in his ministry. But more on point.... The noun apostasia is only used twice in the NT. In Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is shown... departing from the Torah (Moses). The verbal form of apostasia, "aphistemi" is used 15 times in the NT. In all but 3 of them, it refers to a spatial, distance departure, not a spiritual departure. 75% of the time it refers to a spatial, physical departure. Bibles that only use departure... 1560, 1599, 1608 Geneva Bible 1583 Beeza Bible 1576 Breeches Bible 1539 Crammer Bible 1535 Coverdale Bible 1526 Tyndale Bible 1384 Wycliffe bible And even the Latin Vulgate (approx 400 AD) uses discessio, which is simply a departure with a implication of a spatial, distance departure not a spiritual one. Many Greek Scholars concur with this analysis. Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Dr. Ken Johnson, Dr. J. Dwight Pentacost, et al. Dr. Andy Woods has stated that this passage is a confirmation of the pre-trib position... "game, set, match" (his words). Also, there are several examples from the early church writers that imply a pre-trib position. Even Gad the Seer, first mentioned in 2 Samuel, a scroll from him was discovered in the Qumran scrolls. It has since been translated and published. He implies a pre-trib removal of the righteous 1000 years before Yeshua came the first time.

See previous post. I gave the verses in Isaiah I and the "old coot" Hippolytus are referring to.

the address is given to the Hebrews. All thru Matthew 24, the events are the ones those in Israel will experience first hand. Also, the "elect" of Matthew 24:31 is more likely a reference to Jacob / Israel. From Isaiah... Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. And these "elect" being gathered from the four winds... Ezekiel 20:34-38 (NKJV) I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God. 37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord. Ezekiel 20:41-42 (NKJV) I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. confirmed in Isaiah.... Isaiah 11:12 (NKJV) He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 43:5-6 (NKJV Strong's) Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth—