Acadia

Agreed. Unfortunately many are being taught that personal experience and emotions are more important than sound doctrine and “rightly dividing the word of God.” There is so much man-centred doctrine being promoted and sought after today.

You have no idea who may or may not read this thread or others like it. Bethel’s reach is indeed broad and its growing. And just because you don’t believe it’s loving to warn of deception doesn’t mean it isn’t. Scripture is clear. Actually, massive deception is one of the key characteristics written about in regard to the “last days.” I for one am immensely encouraged that a significant number of my brothers and sisters in Christ are “earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.” Dismiss that all you like. I won’t.

He won't reply. And even if he did once or twice, you have already said it will take "many hours" of conversation to make a difference. Who here is going to get such an opportunity with a celebrity pastor like Bill Johnson? Also, you presume he hasn't heard these Biblical objections to his teachings before; that is most certainly false. He has been doing this for many many years. Meanwhile, Bethel has influenced thousands, and thanks to their "Supernatural School of Ministry" and their band "Jesus Culture", they are having a profound effect on the youth. (And this impact is spreading) Why should we stay silent? How can we say we truly love people if we don't warn them?

Actually, I don’t desire that anyone would go to Hell. It’s strange that you would think that, especially of believers who are trying to warn others about false and deceiving doctrines and practices. Have you forgotten that we’re in a spiritual battle and that the enemy is very real and seeks to destroy?

He was stating a fact. They were “very religious”. How is that Paul giving them praise? Also, most of the people Paul was speaking to were “everyday people.” They were not “prophets” or “apostles” leading thousands astray. Sorry, that scripture does not support your claim.

I think you need to go have a careful read of just what Jesus said about the religious leaders who were leading the people astray during His earthly ministry. Was He wrong to speak to them and about them the way He did?

No Godly person every praised false prophets. That is false.

You mischaracterize and misrepresent what fellow believers are doing here. No one is “shaking their finger” at anyone or calling them “everything negative they can think of to say.” It is truly sad that you so completely dismiss Biblical discernment.

Do you honestly think that we are going to be given the opportunity to sit down for “many hours” to “rationally” talk with them? In some cases they have had close friends try to warn them, and they haven’t even listened to the people they know and (hopefully) care about. Please tell me how I, or anyone else here, is going to be given the opportunity to spend so much time discussing Scripture with Bill Johnson or any other “celebrity” teacher or preacher. It’s not going to happen. In the meantime they continue to lead hundreds, if not thousands, astray. And you would suggest we say nothing.

Should we warn others about such practices? Yes or no?

Discernment and sound Biblical doctrine is never "a waste of time", contrary to what you would claim. It is unfortunate that you believe such things about Biblical warnings regarding false prophets and false apostles. You think Jesus would fail to warn of such? And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. - Jesus (Matthew 24:11-12) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Jesus (Matthew 24:24) And how exactly did Jesus "treat" the religious leaders who were leading many astray? Did He defend them?

The primary “fruit” of any professed prophet would be the teaching. (The same would go for any pastor or apostle or anyone who stands in the name of God). Let’s examine some of Bill Johnson’s teachings which go errant on so many levels that it is hard to decide where to begin. For the sake of brevity, I will address four areas of concern: a) The Word of Faith Movement; b) Johnson’s teachings on the Incarnation; c) the anointing (Holy Ghost); and d) his theology of experience. I urge you to be the judge according to the test in Deuteronomy 13. I. The Word of Faith Movement It doesn’t take long to see by reading his books that Johnson is a proponent of the Word of Faith teaching, popularized by Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. Therefore, it is necessary to give a brief overview of WOF teaching to be able to see where Johnson is coming from. In a nutshell, the WOF teaching is based on a gnostic interpretation of the Fall and of redemption. The following is my paraphrase of their explanation: When God created Adam, He gave him all dominion over the earth, to rule and reign as God’s regent. However, when Adam fell, by obeying Satan, he handed that God-given dominion over to Satan, who became the “god of this world.” God, the Father, couldn’t just come in and take the dominion back—Adam had given it away. God had to find a way for a man to come in, as a man, and undo the folly of Adam, gaining back the authority given to Satan by Adam. Jesus is that man. (The WOF teachers do acknowledge that Jesus is God but believe that He “laid aside His own Divinity” in the Incarnation). As a man, Jesus came into the world, resisted all of the temptation that Adam and Eve and the human race succumbed to, and died on the Cross as a sacrifice for our sins. But there is a twist, for the WOF teachers insist that salvation wasn’t secured for man in Jesus’ death on the Cross as a substitute for our sins. Rather, Jesus first had to descend into hell and suffer the torment of Satan and his minions until God was satisfied that it was enough and could legally raise Him from the dead. Of course, the Word of God says that Jesus’ death on the Cross was sufficient, and that when He said, “Telestai!” (It is done), it really was done. But Copeland and Hagin teach that it wasn’t finished until Jesus had literally “become sin” and endured demonic torment in hell. The Fall, according to WOF, was as much about the loss of power and authority as it was about sin and alienation from God. Therefore, salvation is about restoration of power and authority, as well as forgiveness of sins. We get the power back and can now exercise dominion over this life and take authority over evil. Because of this skewed view, WOF is a power religion. This is why WOF Christians frequently speak in terms of authority; they “bind and/or loose” angels and demons; they decree, rebuke, and otherwise speak in terms of “releasing” peace, grace, or mercy into this situation or that. The essence of this theology is the restoration and practical use of the “authority to the believer.” The ideal in WOF circles is that of the born again man of power and authority, the miracle man who has come in to the “revelation knowledge” of “who he is in Christ,” and demonstrates the power of “the anointing” to a lost world. There have developed extensive mythologies around truly historical figures such as John Alexander Dowie, John G. Lake, and William Branham. These are the men who really “took authority,” they say, and showed us all what any believer could do if he had but the faith and “anointing” to do so! The WOF is an offshoot of an earlier expression of these very ideals, the Manifested Sons of God (MSG), once repudiated by the Assemblies of God in the 1940s but now widely embraced in this new form. MSG is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Romans 8:19, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” Traditional Christianity has held that this verse refers to what happens at the bodily coming of the Lord. When Jesus returns, the curse on Creation will finally be removed, and the true children of God will be manifested. But the MSG teach that this verse means that the Creation is waiting for the church to attain to the knowledge of the power and authority, in order to “manifest” our Sonship to the world, through signs and wonders. All of this must occur before Jesus can come back! This is the context in which to understand where Bill Johnson, Jesus Culture, and the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry are coming from, as they seek to bring the church into the power and anointing of their “mystical revival.” II. Incarnation In his teaching on the Incarnation, Bill Johnson states, and rightly so, that Jesus Christ is God. But Johnson also emphasizes to an unbiblical extreme that Jesus completely laid aside His deity: There are several problems with this teaching of Johnson’s. For example, it is theologically inaccurate to say that “Jesus had no ability . . .” and that Jesus “set aside His Divinity.” It is dangerously close to being a denial of the deity of Christ, for divinity by definition cannot be “set aside” nor could God ever be said to lack ability in any sense. In the Incarnation, the eternal God became a man, though He never ceased being God. He always had all power, but restrained Himself, declining the prerogatives of power and majesty, which are inherent to Him, that He might live and die for us as true man. Another problem with this is that Johnson asserts that Jesus performed miracles to “set forth a model for us . . . to show us that we could do it (the miracles) too . . .” This is at the very heart of the Word of Faith teaching from which Johnson has emerged. Supposedly, we as individual believers can and should be doing all of the miracles of Jesus, in the power of the Spirit. To Johnson, Jesus came in the flesh, partly to show us that we too could do what He did! This quest for miracle power is misguided and has led many into deception. Jesus didn’t do His miracles to “show us that we can do it.” The miracles of Jesus are manifestations of the merciful God, whether they be the ones in the Gospels, or in the Book of Acts, or those done in His name throughout the world today. “These signs will follow those that believe.” We are not to seek them. It is only a “wicked and adulterous generation (which) seeks after signs.” Johnson actually posits that any believer has the potential to experience most of what Jesus experienced in the Gospels, even the Transfiguration! He states: Johnson seems to fail to appreciate that though Jesus became “as one of us” in the Incarnation, His uniqueness cannot be safely diminished. Imagine a spirituality spent seeking to attain a transfiguration! No wonder Johnson’s students go to such lengths seeking “glory” experiences. III. The “Anointing” The second aspect of Johnson’s teaching that is dangerous and has led to the reckless mysticism in which so many associated with Bethel are involved is what he teaches about the Holy Spirit, particularly “the anointing.” Johnson states: First of all, here is an example of a teacher setting forth an unbiblical separation between the person “Jesus” and the word “Christ.” This is a very dangerous thing to do; it is similar to what the New Age movement claims, and it is being done towards a similar end. New Agers want to establish the (false) idea that Jesus was merely an enlightened person, one who was anointed (Christed) at thirty years old, very similar to other remarkable human beings such as Gandhi and Zoroaster. This “anointing” is a self-realizing experience. Johnson seems to be trying to establish that just as the man Jesus had to be anointed with the Holy Ghost in order (as a man) to do the miracles He did, we too can have the same experience to do the same thing, for Jesus is our model. The Bible doesn’t do this with the word “Christ.” The apostles never relegated Christ as being a title, nor as being an experience. Christ is a designation of Jesus’ deity. Scripture insists that Jesus is the Christ, and it refers to Jesus as Christ, “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself . . .” Christ is an eternal person, the second person of the godhead, chosen of the Father, and thus anointed with the Holy Ghost. When Jesus came into the world, He already was Christ; he never had to become Christ, nor can anyone become Christ unless he is a false Christ (i.e., antichrist). On the same subject—the “anointing”—Johnson continues: Do you see the problems Johnson’s teachings on “the anointing” raise? For example, did Jesus become the Christ at His baptism? If “Christ” is only valid upon an experience, what was Jesus before the Holy Ghost came upon Him in the Jordan? Was He merely an unqualified “man with a title” up until then? Johnson’s view on the Christ is strikingly reminiscent of an error which emerged early in the history of the church and was repudiated as heresy. It is called adoptionism. It holds that Jesus was a devout man who did not become “Christed” until He was thirty years old when He was anointed of the Holy Ghost. It was by the Holy Ghost that He did His miracles, but the “anointing” left Him when He died on the Cross. If Jesus could do these things (through revelation knowledge and the anointing), so could any other believer. There is a passage in 1 John 5 that refutes this very error about the Christ: The heretics were teaching that Jesus was not Christ until He was baptized in water and anointed with the Spirit. He remained Christ until He shed His blood. But the apostle insists that “He came by water and blood;” that is, He was already Christ when He was baptized and remained so on the Cross, and through His resurrection. The designation, “Christ,” was and is more than an experience; it is inherent to Jesus, the Divine God/man. IV. The Emphasis on Experience, De-Emphasis on Doctrine Finally, Bethel (and Bill Johnson) is actually dangerous in its approach to doctrine and experience and has exposed its followers to the following practices: In addition to “normal” prophetic words, those who attended Bethel’s “Power and Love Conference” in February 2014 received readings based on their tattoos and piercings. Doug Addison can interpret the hidden messages on your body and even train you to do the same. You don’t even have to fly to where he is; for the reasonable fee of $150, he can tickle your ears over the phone for thirty minutes.6 Believe me when I say I have just scratched the surface of the irrational, unbiblical, and even anti-biblical practices of Bill Johnson’s influential ministry. How do confessing Christians become so undiscerning? There is one aspect of Bethel that is perhaps the most dangerous. Johnson, like so many Pentecostals and evangelicals who have preceded him, has a strong anti-doctrinal emphasis. To the neo-mystics of the New Apostolic Reformation, doctrine has a deadening effect and is valid only to the extent that it induces experience. Doctrine is “the letter which kills” and leads to “head knowledge” as opposed to the personal experience of God, based upon individual revelation. Those who insist on adherence to true doctrine are caricatured as Pharisees. There are familiar clichés in these circles such as “God is offending the mind to reach the heart,” and “a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with a doctrine.” These kinds of preachers often delight in saying, “I am going to upend your theology now . . .” as they unveil the latest nugget of their own revelation. Bill Johnson, in illustrating this, stated: Johnson is deconstructing those who seek scriptural knowledge as being in danger of “spiritual pride,” increasing in knowledge in order to “feel good about their standing with God,” and to be better able to win arguments with those who disagree with them! What a pastor! It is almost as if he would discourage the desire to grow in scriptural knowledge! But on the other hand, it is the ones seeking “deeper knowledge” (than that which Scripture reveals?) and a deeper “encounter” with God (experience) whom Johnson considers to be blessed. Imagine a young person sitting under a steady diet of this, and you will see why Bethel, Jesus Culture, and the School of Supernatural Ministry are given over to the most sensual mysticism! To order copies of Beware of Bethel: A Brief Summary of Bill Johnson’s Unbiblical Teachings, click here. (See related booklets.) I really appreciate Lighthouse Trails and their research team. They always take the time to carefully document their resources.

How do you know whether or not anyone on this forum ever listens to Bill Johnson? How do you know that no one who listens to Bill Johnson will ever read the warnings written here? And as to the assumption that those warning about the false teachings of Bill Johnson have not listened to him, you are incorrect. I have. I have watched/listened/read a significant amount of his sermons and teachings. So, your "confidence" that I have not is quite misplaced. Nor should anyone "sit under" or submit themselves to false teaching just to prove it is false. We must be careful to "test" all things, but not to subject ourselves (or encourage others to do so) in a way in which they give these false teachers authority and submit to them. That is how many are led astray. Do you think a Christian should go to a Islamic mosque and submit to Islamic teachings before they can warn that those teachings are false and dangerous?

I am not "trashing" anyone or "running him (Bill Johnson) down". Perhaps you believe Paul was doing so when he named names and publicly exposed and reproved false teachers and deceivers. Perhaps you would have told him not to bother warning believers of "wolves in sheep's clothing", false prophets and false apostles.

I have addressed his wife on her Facebook page. She blocked me, as she does all others who disagree with her. It’s her right to do so, of course, but the point is that these leaders will not listen to anyone who tries to correct or ask honest questions of them. Again, we don’t need to speak with them to publicly address their very public “ministries.” We are to “mark and avoid” those who teach contrary to the doctrine we have received.

Many have or have attempted to. This is not a private matter, it is a public one. Are you aware that Paul publicly confronted people, rebuked them publicly and named names?

Absolutely. I’ve read that quote and others myself. “The Physics of Heaven” is a New Age book and it is available (when last I checked) in Bethel’s online bookstore. There is no “taking back” things from the New Age, Eastern Mysticism, Gnosticism etc. We are to have nothing to do with “the unfruitful works of darkness.”

And yet, those who have in fact tried to contact these leaders are still accused of not going to them privately. This is not a private matter. They have very public ministries and they are very publically leading many many people astray. (And making tons of money in doing so).

I have commented on various posts of NAR leaders asking honest questions and lovingly warning people as well. Beni Johnson simply blocks anyone who questions her, regardless of whether or not they do so in a kind way. If you disagree with her at all, you’re blocked. She does not seem to respond to anyone’s questions or concerns if they have an opposing view. I have also commented on Georgian and Winnie Banov’s Facebook page. I did get a response, but it was nothing more than a clever explaining away of the issues and concerns. Many have attempted to reach out to these leaders, they will not listen.

Actually, the Bible exhorts us to “test all things” and to seek discernment. Paul warned about false teachers and deceivers and he most certainly named names. 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. - Romans 16:17

You can try to defend Johnson as having “untraditional beliefs” about God. It’s far more than that, let me assure you. His views on God and the Christian faith are quite often heretical and blasphemous. And yes, we are indeed to “earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.” There are not clever, new revelations being given as so many in the NAR claim.

Bill Johnson has specifically said that God is “in charge but He’s not in control.” He has also said that he refuses to permit a theology that allows for sickness. Seth Dahl, the children’s pastor at Bethel, claims he had a vision where Jesus asked HIM for forgiveness! The “Holy Spirit” of Bethel makes people thrash around, twitch, spasm, laugh uncontrollably, roll around on the floor, act drunk, become paralyzed and lose control. The true Holy Spirit, as Scripture tells us plainly, causes temperance/self control. The “Jesus” of Bethel died on the cross not simply to save those who believe from sin, death and eternal damnation, but to make believers healthy and wealthy. Kris Valotton recently released a book on this very topic. Go to his Facebook page and see how shamelessly he promotes it. Scripture warns us quite clearly of those who teach and promote “another Jesus”, “another spirit” or “another Gospel.”

I have to strongly and firmly disagree, as the article I linked states in part: A Need to Warn While I bear no animosity toward Mark Burnett or Roma Downey and truly love and care about them, I have great concern for their spiritual state. I fear that the likelihood of them finding the true Jesus Christ is greatly hindered by the evangelical leaders and pastors who have surrounded them, adored them, courted them even—without discerning whether they are of the biblical Christian faith. Questions are not being asked to uncover their true beliefs. If these leaders really care about Burnett and Downey, they would seek out the truth about their beliefs and warn them of the dangers of New Age thought Such forthrightness could potentially help Burnett and Downey come to find a relationship with Him that is based, not on the false premises of the New Age but rather “on the repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). When the History Channel movie series was first released, I had deep concerns because I knew where Roma Downey stood spiritually. Then when Son of God was going to be released, I saw the overwhelming acceptance and embracing of Downey and her husband. When a major Christian book retailer started stocking The Story of God and All of Us, a book based on the movie The Bible with Downey and Burnett as authors, I felt I needed to inform the bookstore’s representatives of my concerns. I received a brief e-mail reply in which the representative said, “yes, we are aware of some issues,” but they decided to release it “for the greater good” in spite of the issues. What he ended with completely floored me: I listened to Roma Downey tell about her involvement in making the miniseries and was impressed by her powerful Christian testimony. It was as if nothing I had brought to his attention made him think that Roma Downey was anything but someone “with a powerful Christian testimony.” It became clear to me that people were unwilling to consider these concerns. With all this in mind, would it not be of great importance, considering Downey’s vast influence on Christians, to ask some very crucial questions. Roma Downey says in interviews she loves Jesus, and that has been the basis of the broad acceptance of her and her movies by Christian leaders and pastors. Here is the simple truth: Either Mark Burnett and Roma Downey know exactly what they are doing and are aware of their role in bringing about synchronicity between Christianity and all faiths, or they do not know the difference between what they believe and what the Bible teaches. If it is the first, then Christians are in real danger in letting them even deeper into their circles of influence. If they do not, then Christians who are accepting them are indeed poor stewards of God’s things and God’s house. What’s more, if those in positions of influence know that Roma Downey represents another belief system foreign to the faith we hold dear and choose to ignore this for the greater good of spreading the good news, then they should be in great fear. For it is their responsibility to care for the flock: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (Acts 20:29) Last year at the 2014 National Religious Broadcasters Convention, I had a unique opportunity to personally hand Roma Downey a copy of my friend Warren B. Smith’s testimony book, The Light That Was Dark.26 I do not know if she has read it, but I do believe God, in His mercy, is reaching out and trying to save her and Mark Burnett. I have written this booklet with the understanding that these are people Jesus died to redeem, and He loves them. Scripture tells us: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) Questions for Roma Downey I have put together a set of questions that needs to be asked and answered by Mark Burnett and Roma Downey: Do you believe Jesus is the only way to God? Do all humans have the “Christ spirit?” Is every human being divine or containing a divine essence? Do you believe the Bible to be the infallible Word of God and the final authority of truth? Knowing that the Bible forbids necromancy, are you sorry you worked with John Edward? Is what you learned from John-Rogers University compatible with your Christian faith? Do you now see the error in endorsing New Age books that promote spirit guides and the divinity of man, two concepts clearly rejected in the Bible? These are reasonable and crucial questions, and it’s the responsibility of Christian pastors and leaders to ask them rather than continue to promote people who by all appearances are following another Jesus and another gospel than the one to which the Scriptures attest. In January of 2015, Roma Downey was asked to host one of the largest contemporary Christian music events in decades. Over thirty well-known veteran musicians shared the platform with Downey. Some of those performing included Michael W. Smith, Newsboys, Don Moen, Mark Schultz, Sandi Patti, Travis Cottrell (Beth Moore’s worship leader), Chuck Girard and Love Song, Steven Curtis Chapman, Steve Green, Dallas Holm, The Imperials, and Nicole Mullen. A Lighthouse Trails report expressed concerns over the implications of this event: It is a sad state of affairs when a concert, billed as “the greatest night in the history of contemporary Christian music,” uses a highly New Age- and Catholic-influenced celebrity to help open and close the event, which is basically making a statement to viewers as well as the church at large that Christianity is compatible with all beliefs.27 If we are willing to ignore or accept the clear biblical conflicts, which Downey has presented to us for the greater good, then how much more will we be willing to overlook next time? The evangelical/Protestant church is already on a steady slide to doctrinal dissolution and rejection of the biblical essentials of the faith through the “new Christianity” that has surfaced in countless churches, ministries, and Christian colleges and seminaries. Every compromise is a snowflake in the avalanche we are witnessing. The Implications What happens when the average Christian or church-goer goes to see a Downey movie and thinks, “I wonder what else Roma has done?” And then he finds himself getting Downey’s CD done with necromancer John Edward or reading Eckhart Tolle or Tony Robbins or heading to Della Reese’s UpChurch website and slowly becoming seduced by another Jesus? This will be the “fruit” of Roma Downey’s influence on millions of people, both Christian and non-Christian. Where are the warnings by Christian leaders and pastors about dangerous seductions coming into the church and compromising truth? The New Age that Roma Downey promotes exalts man to an equality in holiness, virtue, and essence with God. If indeed the New Age is right and man really is divine, then the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on the Cross would not have been necessary. And in fact, if man truly is divine, then Jesus dying for the sins of the world would be of no effect and would be in vain for He would have died for those who were just as holy and good as He was. Let us pray for Mark Burnett and Roma Downey, that their eyes would be opened and that they would come to repentance, turning away from the New Age “gospel” and to Jesus Christ wholly. Let us remember that we too were once in darkness and ignorant of the true Savior, and He redeemed us from a dark pit. Let us also do all we can to hold our leadership’s feet to the fire to ensure they do not promote those things which weaken and even destroy the testimony of God in the world today. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard (Colossians 1:21-23) NEW BOOKLET – Confused by an Angel: The Dilemma of Roma Downey’s New Age Beliefs It is not "a breath of fresh air" to mix truth and error. The "New Age Jesus" is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

Concerning Roma Downey, you may find this helpful: NEW BOOKLET – Confused by an Angel: The Dilemma of Roma Downey’s New Age Beliefs Unfortunately, she is a Catholic/New Age Mystic and there are numerous problems with her productions.

I do believe God has been and will continue to call all of His children out. They will hear His voice and follow Him, because they know their Shepherd.