JoeCanada

T7, You stated .... " when Jesus returns (The Day Of The Lord).......... " death is swallowed up in victory, judgement is complete, eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, it's that simple" The above is what you wrote, so I'm assuming that you believe it to be true ... Yes? I also think that you wrote that when Jesus returns in fire and glory, then that's the end..... Yes?.... No 1000 year millennium.... just the end? I will agree with you that the New Jerusalem is God's eternal home.... with His elect from all time. But..... If the whole earth, the re-made earth, is in an eternal state, with the people in it being eternal as well, then.... 1 - What is the purpose of the tree of life where it's fruit is for the healing of nations, if the nations are in the eternal state? 2 - What is the purpose of the angelic sentries posted at each of the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem ... if everyone on the new earth is eternal and incapable of corruption..... as Rev 21:27 shows still corruption? 3 - If everyone is immortal and death has been swallowed up, they why do people still die in the eternal state?

Jehovah Raah ..... The Lord My Shepherd ..... (also Jehovah Rohi) Jehovah Sabaoth ..... The Lord of Hosts Jehovah Mekoddishkem (M'Kadesh) ..... The Lord Who Sanctifies Jehovah Bore ..... The Lord Creator Jehovah Tsuri ..... The Lord Our Rock

So, how long a time period is there between the dead in Christ rising first..... and then the alive in Christ remaining, stranded in the air, until Jesus meets them in the air...??? "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words..... 1 Thes 4:13-18 Paul is very clear here. He says "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. That's all.... those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. No mention of a bride prepared for the groom..... just those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For the Lord Himself..... not anyone else.... will descend from heaven.... with a shout..... with the voice of the archangel..... and with the trumpet of God...... and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...... Who are the dead in Christ???? You know it. Believers from all time who have their faith in the Rock.... the Rock that led them thru the wilderness.... the Rock of ages.... “For who is God, besides the Lord? And who is a rock, besides our God?....2Sam 22:32 "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold." .... Ps 18:2 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer...... Ps 19:14 There are numerous scriptures pointing to Christ as the Redeemer, even though He did not appear on the scene yet, as the Messiah. Paul tells us that we will be caught up TOGETHER with them, the dead in Christ, and together we will meet the Lord in the air. Not years later. What.... the dead in Christ that rise first will just hang out in the clouds waiting till the alive show up????? Bahahahahaha..... good one! The Song of Solomon 2, in its simplicity, symbolizes the love between a man and a woman. Even a stretch a person could say it speaks of the love between God and His beloved people. Nothing about any rapture here... especially a "secret" rapture. How long will they have to wait in the clouds for the "alive" to show up? You are assuming a great time period between the two events. So here is the scripture.... "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then.... We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." Are you suggesting a long period of time from "the dead in Christ will rise first..... to "then we who are alive will be caught up ...... Wait.... When?.... TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. with them in the clouds.... I do not see a time delay. They, the dead in Christ rising first ... and the alive who remain... will be caught up TOGETHER...... with them (the dead in Christ) I do not see a 6 month delay..... spring to end of summer.

Yes.... this is correct. Let's look at this and compare it with 1Thes 4:13.... But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus are in heaven.... their souls are in heaven (paradise).... these are the souls whom God will bring with Jesus when He comes for the resurrection and those who are still alive (rapture) So the ones He gathers from heaven are not the church.... they are all those who died in Christ, (their souls), who will be given resurrection bodies along with those who are alive when He returns in Glory... So, yes.... technically they are part of the "church", but they are not the entire "church".... the entire "church" is shown in Rev 9:17. Do you see this? This is where I see many are tripped up. The marriage supper does not take place in heaven. I do not find any scriptural reference for it. But I do find scriptural reference for a marriage supper.... (banquet)... on the earth, on God's Holy Mountain, the New Jerusalem. Isaiah.... 25:6.... "The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine." God, Jesus, does not live for a millennia in a cottage, or in a house built by man. He will live in a magnificent Hoy City, the New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven as shown in Rev 21. " And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Do you see? "as a bride made ready for her husband" If the "church" is in heaven prior to the GT.... and "has" married her groom, then how???? can the New Jerusalem, God's Holy Mountain, be said to "come down out of heaven from God.... MADE READY AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND, if she already married her husband several years earlier????????????????????????????? If she married her husband several years earlier, would she still be called a "bride"? I don't think so. Even in a marriage ceremony, after they are made "Mr and Mrs" so and so, she is no longer called a bride of Mr?... is she. They are introduced as "Mr and Mrs so and so". If the church is in heaven before the trib, as some claim... and are there marrying the groom for ( who knows how many years as it varies with pre-tribbers ) how then can Rev 21 make any sense?

kwikphilly, Exactly. I ask myself this many times, and I always come to the same conclusion..... WOW! Our puny, finite minds that try to make sense of an eternal being ..... (kerpow.... an explosion of the mind ..... ) I can imagine John, writing all of revelation down, then reading it and.... WTHeck!!!!!! .... and trying to make sense of it all. His mind spinning.... Love this Philly. Many brothers and sisters seem adamant that their position is solid, that they know the truth. I firmly believe that a shock is coming.... and it won't be pretty.

Hey T7, Why do you only include up to Chapter 46? Chapters 47 and 48 follow chapters 40-46. Chapter 47 begins with ... "THEN" .... which is a continuation of dialogue from 46. "THEN he brought me to the backdoor of the house" (all part of the temple complex). Chapter 47 goes on to describe the rivers flowing out from the temple, going into the seas, and the seas became fresh water.... and fishermen casting their nets and hauling in very many fish...... Has this happened.... yet? Chapter 48 talks about the portioning of the land of Israel for the 12 tribes and the Lord ...... and it talks about the city gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them..... what about this? ... Has this happened? It is quite obvious from reading Ezekiel from chapters 40 to the end that it is one continuous narrative, and not broken up, as people like to claim. They break it up to align with their false theory. Why don't we back up a few verses and read what a person seeking truth should not avoid: Ezek 43:6-9: Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. 7He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die, 8by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger. 9“Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever. Was this only for the generation that was the house of Israel during the Babylonian captivity ?.... as you suggest. Or is it for future generations who will .... "not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die..." Did the House of Israel and their Kings defile Gods Holy Name since their captivity from Babylon? .... Of course they did. So Ezek 40-48 is not talking about a generation following the Babylon captivity but it is talking about .... what?..... Which generation? T7 .... it's time for TRUTH.

It doesn't matter because you can not comprehend the old writing styles at all. WOW!!! Oh I see. Because Greece is first in this scripture you find it ok to just switch things around in Dan 8:9, and then make this bold statement ... "Dan. 8:9 mandates this Little Horn must be born in Greece because of the Directions he conquers in." Dan 8:9 does not mandate what you propose. The only one who mandates that is YOU... because it has to align with your false narrative. """"" This blows your whole thesis out of the water my friend.""""" (revman) It does nothing of the sort. But... Feel free to change scripture around anyway that you feel fit to do so. If that makes you comfortable, then fly at my friend. I will stick to the way scripture is written and then align my thoughts to it, and not the other way around.

You say that Dan 8:9 MANDATES that the little horn MUST be born in Greece....... BECAUSE OF THE DIRECTIONS HE CONQUERS IN. Alright.... lets look at Dan 8:9. Lets be good Bereans and see if what you say is true by comparing your sayings with Scripture. Dan 8:9 .... "Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn, which grew exceedingly great 1st .... toward the south 2nd .... toward the east 3rd .... toward the beautiful land. That's what Scripture says. But you say .... He conquers.... 1st... TOWARD the East or Seleucus/Turkey and 2nd .... TOWARDS the South or Ptolemy/Egypt and 3rd ... TOWARDS Israel. I've brought this to your attention before, to which you said "that it really didn't matter if it was toward the south first or toward the east first" Really?... It doesn't matter that a person changes God's Word? Well, its certainly does matter. If the little horn is from Greece and first conquers toward the south, as scripture rightfully says, then the little horn would need ships to get his troops to where he was going, which in this case would be Egypt. That's why a person who has their own interpretation of scripture as it pertains to eschatology, is forced to switch a word here and there around, to make their view seem right. Kinda like JW's do with Scripture. A little slight of hand. Change a word here or there, add a little, take away a little.... Who's really going to notice?

@truth7t7 The verses you quoted from Zech show the continuation of earth rather than the destruction of it ... or the "end" of it as you put it And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah is talking about the Lords Day and the aftermath of it. "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Just like in Genesis. Gen 6:13 God says ..."I am about to destroy them with the earth" Now, obviously the earth was not destroyed, was it? You saying that .... "Then cometh the end"..... to you it means just that....the end. Bye Bye. That's all folks. In 1st Cor 15..... between verse 23 and 24, is the word ... "THEN". "THEN"..... could easily refer to, (and it does) a time gap. How long is that time gap. Paint me a picture of your day..... "OK, I woke up, had a shower, then I ate breakfast, then I drove to the airport.... then I got on my flight, then I got on another flight ............... Is there a time delay between ...."THENs"?.... You know there is. So why do you insist that there is no time delay between........... 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Christ comes..... then its the end. There is no time for Him to rule with a rod of iron........... to put down all authority..... for nations to come up the Jerusalem year after year to worship the King and celebrate feasts..... Nothing. Christ comes..... that's it! There are so many scriptures that refute this line of thinking brother.

You did not paraphrase. You changed the words around to suit your own interpretation of scripture to endorse your EU Antichrist. "DIRECTIONAL PLACEMENT MATTERS not" .... in your mind it doesn't matter. You are the very person who plays games with wordings ... you change them to fit your agenda. In the case of Dan 8:9 is surely does matter. It stops a person from changing around words to suit their purpose. Why did the Holy Spirit write "toward the south" first? To stop those from believing in a EU Antichrist. But it doesn't stop everyone. A little change of word order and "bang", see a EU Antichrist. Great. You have no defense anyways. Changing God's written word is a definite no-no. I'm beginning to think that it's not YOUR calling, with all the errors that are brought forth from you.

You continue to change God's Word, His true and holy word. "He conquers east and south" ... is what YOU stand on. But God's word does not say that. God's word says "toward the south, toward the east and toward the beautiful land" You are just like a magician with a slight of hand trick. That's right. What does God actually say ... "He conquers SOUTH, then EAST, then toward the beautiful land" And you say "it doesn't matter which direction...... what matters is that he eventually gets to the promised land." In other words you say that it's okay to change scripture to go with your own narrative, whatever fits the bill. And yet you ignore the clue. You ignore scripture completely. Dan 8:9 is VERY specific. "He grew exceedingly great toward the south, (first) toward the east (second) and toward the beautiful land (last) You are infatuated with the EU. The end-times EU Beast kingdom is not scriptural no matter how many million times will you continue to repeat it. It's utter nonsense. From Gen 1 to Rev 22, the bible is Israel and Mideast centric. Anyone claiming to be raptured pre-trib and then trying to explain revelation or any end-time prophecy isn't worth listening to. That person doesn't have a clue. That person has lost all credibility on end time prophecy teaching/preaching.

Nope, this isn't about our Christmas dinner ... Turkey was behind the overthrow of Assad in Syria. Now that Syria is in turmoil, Turkey is preparing to invade Syria with a full force, from three border regions. Is President Erdogan going all in on his ambitions for the conquest of the area of Syria first, then Iraq and Iran ... in an effort to finally get to Israel? We will be watching this closely. The King of the North rides!

Actually, when Alexander came to his end, the Greek Empire was fractioned into more than 24 Generals who battled for control. Those wars eventually dwindled down to 5, then 3 then 2. The Kingdoms which ruled the longest were the Seleucid Empire ruling the Near East and the Ptolemaic Kingdom ruling Egypt and the surrounding area. Their rule lasted almost 200 years. There was never a time when four were dominate, but for a brief moment. Historians can't agree between five generals who were in control. There were really only two which were significant. The King of the North and the King of the South. Don't get all caught up with Daniel 11:4 ...."But as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four points of the compass" In other words, his kingdom will be scattered everywhere ... hence the more than 24 Generals who battled for dominancy.

I clearly understand the verse. I was correcting the person who changed the order of the wording. That person said that the little horn ... "waxed exceeding great towards the EAST" first, instead of toward the SOUTH first. This changing the order makes a big difference. There you go again. It's not toward the East and South ... its toward the South FIRST, then toward the East. And once more ... the order is changed to fit a persons story line. It is "toward the south ... THEN "toward the east" A person HAS to change the order to fit with their EU plot. An army can't begin "toward the south" if it is from Cassander or Greece. They'd end up in the sea.

Thanks Roy, Thanks for sharing the historic play-by-play of Dan 10 to 12. There is a lot of stuff in there that I did not know. However... Although much of Dan 10-12 can be shown to have historically occurred, I see the prophecy as a near-far prophecy. Wording such as ... "the latter days ... at the time of the end ... until the end time.... etc" .... says to me that the prophecy is meant for the time of the end, although some/part/most can be shown to have occurred historically. I do not hold to a preterist view of most biblical prophecies.

Scripture says ... TOWARD THE SOUTH .... then toward the east ... then toward the pleasant land Some people who claim to be experts in deciphering prophecy, think that its ok to do a "switch of words" to help their agenda, figuring its no big deal. Exactly! I know a guy who can change a few words and make it happen. Yup, everything must mesh ........ in the order written.

Jordan escapes. Jordan is not conquered by the King of the North. You say "the AC/Little Horn is NOT ALLOWED to Conquer Edom, Moab and Ammon" You say he conquers Jordan ..... This is Jordan..... Edom, Moab and Ammon. Scripture says the KotN does not conquer Jordan.

The King of the North IS the King of Turkey. He is not a European guy that amasses a great army that then conquers Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Israel and North Africa ..... except for Jordan, which are the Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites, and Dan 11:41 states.

Ok ... but if one looks at the land that Babylon under King Neb (he is the head of gold) conquered, there was very little on the MSR. There was a bit of Egypt to the Nile River, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey about as far as Tarsus. That's about it. Showing a map of the land area that Rome conquered is a bit deceptive. But I guess it helps in a persons theory of the 4th beast being Rome.

God's harvest laws of sowing and reaping were established in Genesis. Gen 8:22 ... While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest ........ Shall not cease

My apologies to Revman

Greece ruled over all the same land mass that King Neb ruled, Babylon being the key. If you look at the Roman empire extent under Emperor Trajan on the map that you posted, it covers Babylon but not Persia. Rome never defeated Persia. Now, if you look at this map (https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14936/the-journey-of-hadrian-117-118-ce/) sorry I couldn't post the map ... of the Roman Empire under Emperor Trajan 117-118 AD, it shows Rome had pulled way back to the eastern Syrian border .... less than one year after marching on Babylon. They could not defeat the Arabs in their guerilla warfare, so they pulled back, never able to take control of Babylon. So Rome never defeated Persia or Babylon, which were part of King Nebs kingdom. This is part of the criteria that Scripture lays out for the 4th kingdom/beast empire,.... the 4th terrifying beast/kingdom would crush and devour and trample on all the empires before it. Rome just does not fit the bill. But ... you are welcome to try and drive a square peg in a round hole. Get a bigger hammer !

God is getting glory from the whole world because He is protecting the Jews who are hiding in the hills? You are joking right? This is the same world that is currently anti-Semitic, except for a few countries. And they are all going to change course and start cheering for the Jews and the "God" who is protecting them? This is the God who they don't believe in? Seriously? The whole Mediterranean Sea region? But none of this will affect the EU? I think maybe your meds are in need of adjustment. This is the type of mumbo-jumbo word salad that Kamala would say. I think you should write a book, a fictional novel on "How the last days look according to Revman." Love to you bro ...

A few years back, there was a debate between Dr Thomas Ice and Joel Richardson on this same subject. It got so heated that it led to an unprovoked attack by Ice calling Richardson a heretic simply because he didn't agree with Ice's position. People really get their backs up against a wall when their "theories" are opposed. We are told in Dan 2 that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold and that the kingdom of Babylon was his to rule. The kingdoms that followed also ruled over Babylon. If you look at the statue, it is a continuous statue all the way down until it is crushed by the stone, which is Jesus when He comes. Babylon is the key. But when we look at Rome, things just don't seem to fit the criteria the bible lays out for the fourth kingdom/beast in Dan 2 and 7. Scripture says the fourth kingdom of iron will crush, trample, devour and pulverize the three kingdoms before it.... Dan 2:40 Rome did none of those things. Rome never controlled the Persian aspect of the empire .... Rome never crushed, trampled and devoured the Greek empire either... instead it assimilated much of the Greek culture into their own culture including the Greek language, architecture, dress, law, Greek gods, etc. If you look at Islam, when they battled and took over nations ... they destroyed pretty much everything. The architecture, the temples, the statues, they changed the language to Arabic, they allowed only one god to be worshipped, they changed dress code, laws, changed calendars ... etc etc etc. Islam controls Babylon today ... Rome never did control Babylon. They marched to Babylon and were defeated by the guerilla tactics of the Arabs after less than one year and pulled back. The western Roman empire was defeated in 476 AD. The Eastern Roman Empire continued on for another approx. 1000 years before falling to Islam. So the western leg was amputated and that left the statue standing on one leg only. Hmmm ??? So ... Rome never took the Persian kingdom, never crushed the Greek kingdom and never controlled Babylon. Those are the three metals after gold in the statue. Islam did. And Islam controls them today. "Iron and clay don't adhere to each other' ... we clearly see this even today. Islam immigrates to Europe and many other nations but they don't mix with the cultures. They bring their own culture with them and try to change the cultures and laws of the countries where they immigrated to.

You have just contradicted yourself with the above two statements. First you state that God made the Laws of Moses irrelevant for mankind today ... in reference to God's sowing and harvesting laws ... which are not in the laws of Moses Then you state that the 7 feast cycles are relevant and that the summer harvesting of souls is still God's sowing and harvesting laws.