JoeChan82

That is the easy answer.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Back to the original question, which is where do all the believers during the tribulation come from if all believers are raptured out before Daniel's 70th week. I have heard it said that verses 11 and 12 mean that if you hear the gospel preached with understanding prior to the rapture and then choose to reject it, you cannot get saved after the rapture. Do you believe that last statement? Jack Hyles and Curtis Hutson did. My pastor does. But does the bible say that? Nope. All it says is that God will send strong delusion to those who received not the love of the truth. When does the strong delusion come in this context? When "that Wicked" is revealed. When is that? Half way through Daniel's 70th week. Please don't respond with "Read your bible" or "I'm right and you're wrong" or "You are confused". I, for one, know that I do not have all the answers. This is supposed to be an anonymous forum, which should allow us to debate without condescension or insult.

I think the original question put before us should be addressed. The idea that dead saints need to be resurrected to go through tribulation is absurd. Nobody said that. Nobody even suggested that. The division between tribulation and wrath is important, but even that cannot gain consensus on this board. So what about the question in the quote above. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. If you believe that "he who now letteth" is none other than the Holy Spirit, and that he dwells in each believer, and that the church will be raptured out in its entirety taking him out of the way, then how can anybody be saved after the rapture? Yet we a great multitude of believers during Daniel's 70th week. Please don't tell me that the Holy Spirit is not essential for salvation.

Everybody is familiar with the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus is dealing with the subject of the necessity of the new birth. In verse 10 Jesus asks this question: John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand being born again and the work of the Holy Spirit as a master of Israel. This verse does much more than merely suggest that salvation is an Old Testament doctrine, it states it clearly.

I happen to know first hand that the post you are referring to has done his own research. He is "Copy and Paste" from his own research. I'm not guessing here, I know it first hand.

True that, but then you see them construct an elaborate mathematical system using anything and everything. They change weeks to years, days to years, years back to days. I read Harold Camping's writings on dating the rapture. He missed it at least three times and had to recalculate. ? Then I read his section on salvation. Nobody could possibly get saved the way he believed. I know we're not supposed to say that someone is not saved on this site, but Mr. Camping was as lost as a ball in tall grass. Google it. My church would never accept his public profession as valid. I bet nobody here would either. Sorry for the rant against date setters.

Pre-wrath is not exactly the same a mid-trib. So you can't mark off 42 months.

I see now where you got that from my comments, but no, I am English, Scottish, and Swedish. I'm about as gentile as it gets. ? That was the ancestry I was referring to.

I believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, not the church. The church did not give birth to Christ, Israel as pertaining to the flesh did. That is the main reason for my objection. I agree with a lot of other things you said, so this is not a blanket condemnation of your positions. Revelation 12:1-7 ¶ … a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 … and behold a great red dragon, … 4 … and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This seems to be a modified Historicist position. Futurists hold to the belief that Daniels 70th week is future in its entirety. I am not calling you a Historicist, but you may have read behind some Historicists in the past. Check out this link -http://historicist.info/articles2/historicistvsfuturist.htm

And there is the core and crux of our various disagreements on eschatology. All arguments about the timings, meanings, and identifications of people in Daniel's 70th week all hinge on this, don't they? The reason I rejected the premise stated above is that I see Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 as referring to the same event. Once I rejected the pretribulation rapture of the church, many other things changed as well. I do see a definite difference between national Israel and the church. There is also a difference between fleshly Israel (those born Jews) and believing Jews of all ages or dispensations. It is the second group into which we have been grafted and thereby inherit the kingdom. I could be wrong, but I have found plenty of scripture to support my position. (This in no way makes me think that those who disagree are lost or heretics or anything else.) Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Romans 9:6-7 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Ephesians 2:11-13 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 3:2-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers. You may be on to something.

Good point. In fact Paul said 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Paul not only met personally with Jesus, but also had access to at least Luke's gospel, as well as Galatians 2:1-2 ¶ Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Revelation 21:9-11 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God This city has foundations named for the apostles and gates named for the 12 tribes of Israel. I think, based on these verses that the bride will include all those saved from Adam to the end of the world, Jew and gentile alike. I think the occupants of the city are in view here and not the city itself. Since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, I believe that all those saved must look to Him, whether looking forward to Him like the Old Testament believers did or looking back to the cross like we did.

I think that this is an excellent point. This passage deserves to be looked at. In this passage, we see those that hide in caves see that the wrath of God has come. They know that they are guilty. Now, please consider Revelation 11:15-19. Revelation 11:15-19 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Now here in Revelation 11, we see a far greater authority declaring that the wrath is come. The folks hiding in caves see it coming, but in Revelation 11, heaven declares it.

In addition to that question I would ask, if the church is gone, is the Holy Spirit still here? If not, how do all those people get saved during the tribulation?

As you may or may not know, Dispensationalists are the one group that consistently and invariably hold to the pretribulation rapture doctrine. Other groups, like the Reformed churches hold diverse opinions on eschatology ranging from pretribulation rapture to post tribulation rapture to post millennial and even amillennialism. So there must be something about Dispensationalism that causes this. Here is my meager attempt to summarize. Dispensationalists are usually literal in their interpretation of scripture. In other words, if the literal sense makes common sense, than seek no other sense. So, for example, an earthquake is an earthquake and not an allegory for political upheaval. The Bible uses symbols and types, but they are easily recognized. For example, the woman that rides the beast is not a natural woman riding a horse, the Bible itself interprets these symbols and types as symbols and types. Dispensationalists further rightly divide the word of truth. By this, they refer to the dispensations of times in which God dealt differently with man. Eg: The dispensations of innocence, conscience, government, promise, law, grace, etc. As a consequence, one dispensation MUST end before the next one begins. And thus, the "Seven Year Tribulation Period" cannot begin until the "Church Age" ends, because Israel and the church are in different dispensations. The church age ends with the rapture of the church. This is why mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath trib folks cannot reconcile their views with most pre-trib folks. Each uses scripture to posit their views and cannot fathom why the other folks cannot understand. Believe it or not, I am a Dispensationalist, but apparently not a good one, because I am also pre-wrath in my view of the resurrection.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a spiritual and an historical element to these kingdoms. The statue itself was a dream given to Nebuchadnezzar and not an actual statue. Each kingdom succeeds the next, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold. We also know that the next kingdom was Media Persia, followed by Grecia. In Daniel 8, Daniel has a vision of the ram and the goat, which again is explained by the scriptures in the same chapter as Media Persia and Grecia. I have no doubt that these are real historical kingdoms and I also have no doubt that Michael and Gabriel do battle with Satan and his angels. So I think that we are in agreement. Where I see us possibly going in different directions is the identity of the fourth kingdom. Until recently, I was convinced it was Rome. I read Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons. It compares Rome and Babylon by doctrine, symbols, and holidays. It seemed like a natural spiritual progression from Babylon to Rome. The history of the world also provided a natural physical progression. Now, I am investigating the possibility that the fourth kingdom may spring from the breakup of Alexander the Great's kingdom. Like I said, I am investigating the possibility.

Thanks all for the replies. Because of the reasons ya'll gave I have never been dogmatic on my position. I was wondering about the ramification of taking one position or another. I mean does one position make me part of the Reformed camp and the other position make me part of the Church is the new Israel camp or the Israel is completely different from the church camp. You know, that sort of thing.

Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position. Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming. They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age. The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation. How did I do?

How in the world do we get away from the title of this thread, AMERICA: NEW ROME & BABYLON THE GREAT ("Come out of her, My people...") to a debate on election? There were some very challenging points introduced, which spoke directly to the OP. (I recently learned what the initials OP stand for.) That's what I want to learn about. So to that point I say that comparing scriptural descriptions of Babylon to present day current events is extrabiblical in essence and is therefore speculative at best, irrespective of the apparent similarities. My road to Rome, so to speak, was my interpretation that the statue in Daniel represented Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, then Rome. One of the posts directly challenged my interpretation by asserting that 4th kingdom isn't Rome, but an Islamic kingdom. That is the kind of stuff I need to research.

I see what you are saying. We're not as far apart as I first thought. I have seen some far fetched theories floated in these forums, so thank you for the clarification.

I have always viewed the 4 kingdoms represented by the statue in Daniel as; the Babylonian kingdom, the Medo-Persion kingdom, the Grecian kingdom, and the Roman empire. I had never seen the common point as being the location of Babylon itself. I have to check this out. On first blush though, Alexander the Great was the son of Phillip of Macedonia, so I assume he ruled from there. And Rome is the capital of the Roman empire. They all controlled the area where Babylon is though, so you may be on to something.

I see what you are saying about horns and trumpets. I'm not calling that into question at all. You said the trumpets were for the land of Israel only. I say that a simple reading of the description of the results of the 7 trumpets in Revelation leave no doubt that the whole world is affected, not merely the land of Israel.

Revelation 8:7-13 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! There is no way that the 7 Trumpets target the land of Israel only. That sounds like the eschatological equivalent of the partial flood theory to me. Just as the flood in the day of Noah was worldwide so is the wrath of God. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Additionally, the wrath of God is announced during the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11:15-19 And the seventh angel sounded; … 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, …