Figure of eighty

Yes He does.

5 hours ago, Willa said:

It amazes me how many of the children who were unwanted and even abused even by their parents are wanted and cherished by God.  He is our true Father and the One who desires us to be a part of His family.  He created us for a reason: we are to bring glory to Him showing how He can redeem us from the garbage heap and transform our lives into something beautiful.  

This I can work with.

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Perk of being... you know... God.

Yeah. That's His sovereignty. I don't like a few things God does or permits but I do acknowledge He is God.

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, it doesn't make sense.   Free will means you have a choice.   For God to violate your free will, you have to actually exist first and you have to actually be able to make a choice.   God cannot violate your free will before you exist.   Your initial question is simply a non-starter in that regard.

Yes, we have souls.

Isn't bringing people into existent that may not want to be here a violation of there free will? God knows those who will have a hellish life or even take their life. So why? ( If he knows some will take there lives..why place them here despite knowing that? Why?) Especially when there are many children who may turn out to be still born. What if they desired life ? 

I still say it's a violation of free will because He knows those who dont want to go through with life. Idk to me to know some will people live hellish lives and decide they'll be born anyway without their say so( yes I know God is Good..but for to pertain to my post) it just seems cruel. 

I remember reading a story about , I think a Norwegian girl who struggles immensely with her life being abused ( physically/sexually) from the time she was a young child until she asked for assisted suicide at 20... 

As some may say, since she took that way out she's in hell. It just seems unfair to me. She didn't ask to be here and got dealt the worst hand.

I just wonder why God would allow that without intervening. I also read another story of a girl who was repeatedly abused by her mother's boyfriend... And would pray to God over and over to do something. To end it. And it didn't end until she actually told what was hay herself. Because of that lack of intervention she's an atheist now. 

Idk, these are things I think about ...they just rub me the wrong way. 

1 hour ago, Not me said:

As far as man having free will. Scripture says; 

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB)
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

God has called upon both Heaven and earth to witness against the man, that says man has no free will. But not like the animals have free will, where they can only act according to their nature. For they had no choice as to which nature they received. 

 As with a dog you can feed or beat or love a dog and it will never act like a cat, for it’s against its nature. Man on the other hand is truly free for there are only two possibilities  for a sentient being who’s will  is free. They can have a good nature or bad. These are the only two possiblilities for a sentient being who’s nature is free. God has created man free whereby man can choose which nature he wants, whether it is good or bad, is totally up to the man himself. We are the choosers. For every creature that has life has to have a nature. God has given man the ability to choose his. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

Animals can do what we deem is bad. Some eat their young or mates lol. Also some attack and kill humans as well..when it comes to animals I feel they just aren't aware what they're doing is wrong. They don't have that level of consciousness or awareness.

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Now you're getting it. There are actually four covariant discernible aspects to our temporal existence as follows:

1. Divine Foreknowledge
2. Divine Predestination
3. Human Volition (aka Freewill)
4. Divine Intervention

Obviously we are predestined as to our human form, having no choice as to the features that nature deals us.

God foreknows every aspect of us as mentioned, including how we react or respond to everything, which we have an element of choice and control in.

God can and does intervene according to His Plan and Purpose for His Creation, as He did with Saul, later Paul, on the road to Damascus.

Predestination and Freewill are not mutually exclusive but are interactive elements in much the same way that space and time interact and compliment each other. 

Yeah. Predestination would throw me for a loop. I see both free will and predestination in scripture and I chalk it up to us having free will within the realm of God's sovereignty. I see it like this...God's sovereignty is a red ring and our free will fills up that space. Just my thoughts.

56 minutes ago, TechEnthusiast said:

I think when we talk about  he fact that God can do what he wants that we should acknowledge something very important. God is good so so good.  I suppose it really depends on how you define good. I think that God is the creator of all good things and though He does do things that cause pain, He has a very very good reason for it. God created laughter, fun, and feasts. He created friendship, and love. He is not an arbitrary tyrant who does as He pleases on some random whim. He is a Benevolent wise and good King who does what he pleases. This is a very very important distinction. The way that Jobs friends treated Job disgusted God. I mention this because just telling people God does what he wants is just what they did. This topic is very very important and should be handled with great care.

 

I think it's more about trust. Life can be a good thing for some people. You're right it should be handled with care

Just now, Michael37 said:

"Lack of choice when we are supposed to have freewill". So when are we "supposed" to have freewill?

I don't know. I'm not God. 

Since God does intervene on our free will from time to time ...my OP being one example as well as some examples in the Bible. It just seems like we have free will to an extent. 

53 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Excuse me F of E if I find you rather obtuse in your reasoning but the fact that God always knows all that is knowable doesn't mean that people pre-exist their temporal existence in the way Jesus did before His incarnation. Sure God always knows our past, present, and future, and has communicated the relevant details to us. He always has us on His mind so to speak. If we are to be the elect of God after we are born, this is foreknown of God in the sense that in eternity outside this temporal, finite dimension we are united with Him in deep, intimate, spiritual fellowship. Those who are hardened to God and reject His goodness in making redemption available to all are told to depart from Him because He never knew them in the sense of this deep, intimate, spiritual fellowship.   

Mat 7:21-27
(21)  Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22)  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23)  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
(24)  Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(25)  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
(26)  And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
(27)  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So did God create us or not? 

25 minutes ago, Not me said:

Scripture says;

 “it’s the Spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing”

Because of this scripture, I’m of the mind that all outward manifestation(s) of flesh or matter are just a outward response to the working of the Spirit torward whatever the Spirit desire is. So the cell or all flesh is itself a dead thing, (in itself). It can only manifest movement or life to the degree the spirit of the thing would have manifestion and act upon it for an outward manifestation. 

For I believe “it is the Spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing” is an eternal truth which goes to the very ground of life. (my thoughts, could I be wrong, sure) but seeing how God is a Spirit and all life comes from Him it just seems to follow. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

Yes God's spirit. We can do nothing on our own. God breathes life into everything and being. Nothing is in our own strength.

52 minutes ago, TechEnthusiast said:

Is it possible that your question is more about suffering and less about choice?

Nope. My question is what I wrote. It's just about the lack of choice when we're supposed to have free will. It seems we only have free will to the extent God allows since He's sovereign.

6 minutes ago, TechEnthusiast said:

if you are hurting super badly I am so sorry. I know it must be very hard to deal sometimes. Suicide isn't the answer. Be easy friend.

No. It's just always something I thought about. 

Alot of things I've thought and wondered about.

1 minute ago, Not me said:

True, but I’m of the mind that sperm is a desire torward life. Looking to be filled. 

Much love in Christ, Not  me 

Yes but it has no soul. Another thing I learned in anatomy class is that the body has alot of *involuntary* actions....so again it isn't us...the sperm has no soul. 

42 minutes ago, Not me said:

We did ask/fight to be here. Out of all the sperm that fought for life, we/you/I, won the gift of life, and the gift of life was given us. But what is not seen or understood is that life can only be received and found as life is in itself, not as any one person would have it.

Suicide is wrong because it is killing the gift that was given. Which is life itself. 

(my thoughts) 

much love in Christ, Not me 

 

You aren't alive until the sperm fertilizes the egg and even then not until the heart beats. The sperm is just a cell...not a whole living being. A sperm cell doesn't have a soul...it just contains some blue prints for traits/features of the future baby.

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I would just like to remind us all what paul , WHO actually feared GOD once said .     Should the created say to the Creator , WHY have you made me thus .

GOD DOES as HE PLEASES .     AND I for one am greatful HE is in charge and NOT MAN .  

That's true. God does as he pleases but whether it. Intervenes on our free will or not. 

I have mixed feeling's because of this ..as well as a hard time trusting him bc of that.

57 minutes ago, PepperS said:

I don't buy the free will argument as it is being used here.

Anyone who is acting this way is clearly insane. Are they really acting in free will or by insanity?

Where did this version of free will come from? The Bible talks of freedom in Christ.

 

I honestly don't know about free will either . I feel )( just my opinion) that we have as much free will as God will allow.. God also intervenes during some situations and not others. Not sure why...but it is what it is. 

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not seeing how us being conceived is a "free will" argument.   If we didn't exist before we were conceived, then how would we have had a say in whether we wanted to live or not in the first place?   It really makes no sense as a free will argument.

Also do you believe we have souls? Our souls are etenral which is why God paid the price to save them.

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not seeing how us being conceived is a "free will" argument.   If we didn't exist before we were conceived, then how would we have had a say in whether we wanted to live or not in the first place?   It really makes no sense as a free will argument.

It does make sense. I believe we exist because of the verse that says he knew us while he formed us in the womb. Alot of people don't want to be here. Wished they weren't born..or just have horrific lives. 

I think it'd be fair if it were possible we could get a glimpse of what our lives would be like and entail and then decide...but we don't. 

We're just created and out here. ( But that's just me.my thoughts blah)

Just now, PepperS said:

I have never liked that answer (nothing personal). It's too simplistic.

Why is it that the evil people get to exercise their free will?

What about the free will of the baby?

This world is ugly. Satan preys on the weak...neither does he fight fair..he takes the lowest of low blows he can't take. He's an ugly being. 

But at that age babies are vulnerable which is said because they're at the mercy of who they're in the care of.

7 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Well, it is kind of hard to make yourself... I wasn't very good at putting my arms on my torso and what not.

Let's just say I "needed a hand" with it. ?

Cute response

1 minute ago, PepperS said:

There have been babies tortured and murdered by their own parents when they were only a few days old.

I get your point. I have struggled with this too. The answer is above my pay grade.

For the babies being murdered that's clearly their parents fault. Definitely exercised their free will to do evil.

Just now, PepperS said:

There have been babies tortured and murdered by their own parents when they were only a few days old.

I get your point. I have struggled with this too. The answer is above my pay grade.

Above your pay grade? This was probably supposed to be a nice joke...but it went over my head ..so please forgive me.

1 minute ago, Michael37 said:

He doesn't do this randomly. Once again, how can anyone make a choice whether or not to exist without first existing? This time I am going to say... "Dah!"

Does his word say he knew us while we were in the womb?( I'm paraphrasing..) God has foreknowledge of who will be born. He creates/created each and every person. Who's lived and will live. 

Either He's all knowing or not

15 minutes ago, PepperS said:

God doesn't force people to live.

Suicide is wrong because it is murder and it is destroying God's creation.

There are more reasons. I am sure others will chime in.

No one asked to be born though...yet here everyone is.

1 minute ago, Michael37 said:

Hullo Figure of Eighty,

Have you ever heard the phrase "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"?

If we had the power to choose whether we exist it not we would already exist.

We exist because God desires fellowship with us.

Satan exists because opposites are a consequence of whatever is, in this case because God exists the possibility of opposition to Him exists.

Suicide is wrong because it is the opposite of seeking God's kingdom and His righteousness before all else.

For more truth on these matters...read The Bible...study the Bible...and call on the name of Jesus Christ for everything.

But. God also throws people in an eternal torement who never asked to be here. I'll never understand that.