unworthyservant

Rephrase, Reliable Economic Research sources. There are many good studies and many conclusions based on scholarly research focused on Economic systems and their effectiveness. I'm by no means a Economist but I found the research curiously enlightening.

It is true that the corporate church structure couldn't exist without the support of individuals and individual churches but for sake of discussing it as a separate issue, it has nothing to do with changes in any individual's giving habits as even if everyone doubled their giving tomorrow the corporate structure would still be there to get an even greater piece. I think we should take it personal but it's not about anyone's personal giving (that's between them and God and Christ laid out plainly what and how we should give) but about where the money goes once it is given.

BTW, how did this topic turn from the expensive corporate structure of modern churches to comparisons of individual giving. Christ said to give our alms in private and I never intended to start a discussion of folks personal finances or giving. (that is another discussion entirely and has been discussed here as such recently).

Don't feel bad. I sometimes feel the same as I live month to month and don't always have money to give but as long as you give everything you can and don't spend what you have on earthly treasures then God will be pleased. And when one doesn't have money, you can always give your talents (God appreciates that as well).

I've given all that I have on more than one occasion (which is comparatively little) and while I have very little I try every day to use either what money or resources I have at that time to help someone in even worse shape than I. It's all relative. The old song says "I can't even talk to a rich man, to compare I'm a beggar no doubt" but I don't believe that Christ taught His teachings just for the rich. Matter of fact He took the time to point out that God treasured the widows two mites over much bigger offerings not because of the size but because she gave all that she had. It's not the amount ("to whom more has been given, more is expected") but whether one is putting God's work over hoarding their money.

I wish I had more money but I pray that if I ever do, I'll have the Faith and strength to resist the temptation to use it for "better things" for myself and instead use it to help those who have even less than I. We could all use more real friends but the "Catch22" is that having money can attract the wrong kind of "friends" so one must be even more wary. I would hope that any new friends that I would attract from having money is those poor or needy folks that I was able to help.

Yes it is and it's a matter of whether one loves the earthly things that wealth can afford or God. If they love the "mammon" then they'll spend their money on it (those earthly treasures) and if they love God they will spend it doing His will.

It was from the evil desire of someone. Whether it's from your own or your ancestors is irrelevant as Christ just told us what to do with it and never mentioned where it came from. He never differentiated whether it was personally accumulated or inherited. I imagine that the "rich young ruler" whom Christ encountered probably inherited some if not the bulk of his wealth (as a ruler in those days usually was from a wealthy family) and Christ didn't differentiate which part of his wealth he should give, He said "all".

I checked the numbers and while there is no definitive way to assess the ability of percentages of populations who are able but not willing to work, it seems that experts agree that there's probably little if any difference in those numbers between Socialist country and a Capitalistic one. It's not so much to do with the economic system as it is to do with human nature and the desire of some to live from the labor of others. I never said I wanted my tax dollars to go to anyone who is able but too lazy to work but neither did any socialist that I can find. My point is simply that we shouldn't spend our time debating the pros and cons of economic systems and instead concentrate on what should I as a Christian do with whatever money I have left after the government takes whatever for whatever. As I have said, either system would work equally well if only everyone involved administered it with Christian values and that's never going to happen. The main difference is in Socialism the incentive should be for the greater good of society where in Capitalism the incentive is personal wealth. The Capitalist system just realizes that greed is a bigger motivation than the greater good.

And a distinction that Christ NEVER made! Most folks get that notion from Paul when he said "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil". If you look at Paul's statement he never said that one could accumulate it unless he first loved it, he was just pointing out the fact that the "love of money" or "greed" is behind the evil of accumulating it. He never meant to override the teachings of Christ when He said definitively "You cannot serve God and mammon". So, when folks say it's not the money that's evil, it's the love of it, they're right that the love of it is behind the accumulation and the money is simply the fruits of that evil desire for it. "By their fruits you shall know them"! That said, if you simply read Paul's statement in context with what Jesus said, it's apparent that the love of money is the catalyst for the sin of mammon or the accumulation of wealth. That's why Christ said "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." If your heart is with God, your treasure is in Heaven, if your heart is with mammon then then your treasures will be earthly wealth. Paul just said it differently. You could just transpose on the words of Christ (since Paul was teaching on them anyway) to Paul's statement and you could have "where your treasure is, there is where your love is". So, do we love Christ and serve God or do we love mammon and serve ourselves?

As many here have come to know, I'm not necessarily thrilled with the way that the modern churches deal with financial matters and some have heard my opinion of individuals who amass personal fortunes by "preaching the Gospel" and those who preach the "Prosperity Gospel". Now on another note, what about the modern corporate Christian churches themselves? I'm not referring to the fact that in the US any church who wishes to take advantage of the Tax Exemption laws must register as a 501c non-profit corporation. I'm referring to the fact that Christians give their money to their local church (which is a corporation in it's own right) and then after paying for the church building and it's maintenance as well as pastoral and administrative salaries and costs, most churches now pay fees to yet another corporation (or more) that is the governing body of all churches within that particular denomination. Now I know there are still independent churches that don't subscribe to that model so this is not particularly meant for those, but a growing number of churches are members of a larger organization. These governing bodies not only set theological guidelines and belief systems but also administer insurance and retirement plans for employees of their churches. Just as with any corporation, most of these governing bodies have executives who are paid exorbitant salaries and a massive administrative staff who are all paid from those proceeds. While most don't disclose the executive salaries, earlier this year a commentator on SBC voices stated that incoming president and CEO of the Executive committee, Ronnie Floyd will be making in the neighborhood of $500,000 per year. That's just for presiding over the Executive committee and doesn't include the salaries of the President of the Organization or any corporate officers! Why should we as Christians be concerned at this? Well, it all boils down to the numbers. So, let's do a little comparison. According to most reliable sources the average secular "help for the poor" non-profit uses approximately 75% of it's donations directly for those programs that benefit the underprivileged folks that they serve. In comparison, most sources that I can find put the average churches percentage of donations that go directly to missions and programs that help the poor at about 30%. One organization (with high paid executives and who I won't name so as not to point out one particular denomination) who claims to be regulating financial responsibility among it's members published a recommended budget plan to increase the outside giving to 40%. Isn't it ironic that if they didn't have to spend a portion of their donations on an organization to tell them how to spend their money, they might have already surpassed that number! While, as I have said, there are still independent churches who have not fallen prey to this scourge, it's becoming more and more systemic. The one glaring exception are some mega churches who still fall in that 30% giving bracket but instead of paying exorbitant salaries to outside organizations, simply give all that money to the staff of their own church and not to missions or the poor. Christ never told us to build buildings in which to worship God (there's one Temple and He said He would take care of that one) and never put forth the idea of large organizations to administer anything much less our money . While there's nothing wrong with having a meeting place to worship and a base from which to do God's work, I feel that it's this corporate mentality (and it was present for centuries in the Catholic Church even before there was any such thing as a "corporation") that prompted the building of lavish churches and led to the formation of these large and expensive administration structures. Now it has morphed into the largest corporate structure in the world. Just think how much good could be done if only the churches could run as lean as just the "average" non-profit. It would practically double the amount of church donations that were made available for everything from community outreach to world missions. There don't seem to be any reliable numbers on total church donations (they are so all over the place I hesitate to even give a range) but I'm betting that figure would be life changing for millions if not billions in need.

It sounds like you have a common Capitalist misunderstanding of socialism and may be drawing conclusions based on that. You say that "Under socialism, nobody has to work". That is inherently untrue. In socialism, as with any economic system, the working class must work to support the system and in every instance I've looked at, you are required to work if able. Willing isn't a consideration(although unwilling could land one in really hot water). At any rate, I believe that Christians should spend our time doing God's will and while it is good to have a say in the political social or economic system, it's not anything that Christ told us to worry about. When He said, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" He was not only referring to the tax in question but teaching us that whoever is in power is not our worry and we should give to them whatever they require (as long as they don't require something that would keep you from worshiping God). He then follows with "And unto God that which is God's". With that as our example, we should spend our time converting sinners to Christ and not Socialists to Capitalists(or vice versa). I believe that when we spend our time on Political or systemic economic issues we're wasting the time we could be using for His will. Personally I don't believe that either Capitalism or Socialism is inherently better than the other and as someone has stated, it's because human nature has and always will corrupt every system. Either system would be fine as a Christian if everyone involved had Christian values and lived by them but since that's never going to be the case, as Christians, don't we have more pressing issues? "The harvest is great and the laborers few", so let's get to work on the harvest regardless of which economic system you (or they) prefer.

The following is some quotes from a radio address given by Dr. Bob Jones, founder of Bob Jones University, a fundamentalist Christian University in Greenville, SC in 1960 in order to defend his position that segregation was scriptural and bolster the university's refusal to admit black students. For historical perspective, this was in the middle of the Civil Rights movement and the Civil Rights bill of 1960 was making it's way through the Congress. While the University had a couple of Asian professors at the time it was a whites only campus. (Even when they did finally allow black students in 1971 they were required to be married to another black and live off campus so as not to encourage mixed marriage) I present this to show how someone can twist the Scripture to fit their own beliefs and then convince others of their point. The entire broadcast is over 45 minutes long and is available online but what follows are just a few quotes from it: "For many years we have lived together. Occasionally there will be a flare-up. But the white people have helped the colored people build their churches, and we have gotten along together harmoniously and peacefully; and everything has come along fine.... Sometimes we have a little trouble, but then we adjust everything sensibly and get back to the established order. But the good white folks have always stood by their good colored friends, and the good colored folks have always stood by their good white friends. No two races ever lived as close together as the white people and the colored people here in the South and got along so well.... God Almighty may have overruled and permitted the slaves to come over to America so that the colored people could be the great missionaries to the Africans. They could have been. The white people in America would have helped pay their way over there. By the hundred and hundred they could have gone back to Africa and got the Africans converted after the slavery days were over... Individually, Christian people in the South–white and black–through the years have been able to work together and to understand each other. But now a world of outside agitation has been started, and people are coming in the name of piety, but it is a false piety, and are endeavoring to disturb God’s established order; and we are having turmoil all over America. This disturbing movement is not of God. It is not in line with the Bible. It is Satanic. Now, listen and understand this. Do not let people lead you astray... “Well,” you say, “The colored folks have not been treated right.” I agree with you. Neither have the poor white people been treated right. When I was a boy in Southeast Alabama, we lived in what was called the white section of the State. There were not many colored people there. The slaves were in the western part and in the midsection of the State. Down in Southeast Alabama there were some slaves but not many; but they had the reconstruction days–hard days–and the time came along when people were having a hard time. Some white folks were not treated right. They paid 20 percent interest on money. They were oppressed by people who had money. The colored people down in my country were treated just as well as the white people by businessmen... You can go to any city in the country and find the poor people living in a certain section there. I do not say that things are right. But things are not going to be made right by trying to overthrow God’s established order. That is not the way to make things right. You cannot make them right that way. The colored people in the South today are better off than they are anywhere else in the world. The situation is not a perfect situation for the white folks or the colored folks or for anybody else; but we have never had a perfect situation in this world since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden... If we would just listen to the Word of God and not try to overthrow God’s established order, we would not have any trouble. God never meant for America to be a melting pot to rub out the line between the nations. That was not God’s purpose for this nation. When someone goes to overthrowing His established order and goes around preaching pious sermons about it, that makes me sick–for a man to stand up and preach pious sermons in this country and talk about rubbing out the line between the races–I say it makes me sick... Yes, God chose the Jews. If you are against segregation and against racial separation, then you are against God Almighty because He made racial separation in order to preserve the race through whom He could send the Messiah and through whom He could send the Bible. God is the author of segregation. God is the author of Jewish separation and Gentile separation and Japanese separation. God made of one blood all nations, but He also drew the boundary lines between races... After the Civil War the colored people wanted to build their schools and churches, and white friends made financial contribution to the building of these schools and churches. Back in those days it was not easy when the white folks were paying most of the taxes–don’t you colored friends forget that when you are inclined to turn away from your white friends. You colored people might also remember that your ancestry in the South who were slaves breathed an atmosphere of culture back in those pre-Civil War days. Think of what your ancestors received in such an atmosphere. Think of the religion that they learned and how they found God in slavery days. Think of those old white preachers who preached to your colored ancestors when they were slaves... We should have let the Africans stay in Africa instead of bringing them here for slaves, but did you colored people ever stop to think where you might have been if that had not happened? Now, you colored people listen to me. If you had not been brought over here and if your grandparents in slavery days had not heard that great preaching you might not even be a Christian. You might be over there in the jungles of Africa today, unsaved. But you are here in America where you have your own schools and your own churches and your own liberties and your own rights, with certain restrictions that God Almighty put about you–restrictions that are in line with the Word of God... We should not let this outside agitation disturb us down here. Now, listen just a minute. You colored people are entitled to good schools. You ought to have them. I would like for you to remember something. Just remember that the South went through reconstruction and had a hard time. It was not easy. Then remember something else, too. When your ancestors were slaves in the homes of these Southern people, they got a breath of culture that they could not have gotten even in the schoolrooms of America... You say slavery was not right. Well, I say it was not right. I say the colored people should have been left over in Africa, and we should have sent missionaries over there and got them converted. That is what we should have done. But we could not have converted them as fast that way; and God makes the wrath of men to praise Him. They were brought over here, and look what they have. They have their churches. They have a freedom here they do not have anywhere else in the world. They have an understanding here. Let’s not wipe out the line of understanding... Whenever you get a situation that rubs out the line that God has drawn between races, whenever that happens, you are going to have trouble. That is what is happening today in this country... Now I can sit down with any Christian Japanese, and Christian Chinese, and Christian African, etc., anywhere in the world and as a Christian have fellowships. That is a different relationship. A Christian relationship does not mean a marriage relationship. You can be a Christian and have fellowship with people that you would not marry and that God does not want you to marry and that if you should marry you would be marrying outside the will of God. Why can’t you see that?..." CLOSING PRAYER "Our heavenly Father, bless our country. We thank Thee for our ancestors. We thank Thee for the good, Christian people–white and black. We thank Thee for the ties that have bound these Christian white people and Christian colored people together through the years, and we thank Thee that white people who had a little more money helped them build their churches and stood by them and when they got sick, they helped them. No nation has ever prospered or been blessed like the colored people in the South. Help these colored Christian not to get swept away by all the propaganda that is being put out now. Help us to see this thing and to understand God’s established order and to be one in Christ and to understand that God has fixed the boundaries of the nations so we would not have trouble and misunderstanding. Keep us by Thy power and use us for Thy glory, for Jesus’ sake. Amen."

wasn't familiar with Mr. Chan so I went and looked at him and some of his teachings. On the surface it seems he's doing a good work and the few teachings I saw seem pretty well solid.

Well, I think that you are correct, God doesn't expect us to not have a safety net as long as we aren't spending our money on sinful things or accumulating earthly treasures for ourselves. As for Dr. Jeremiah, he has amassed a personal net worth of approximately $21M, so I would say he might want to remove the mote from his own eye. As for Dr. Stanley, he is one of the poorest of the major TV preachers with a net worth of about $1.5M but even he couldn't very tell someone "not to hoard your money" either. It's why we need to look at how those who are telling us how to spend our money are spending theirs. I agree that we should give and not hoard and I also believe that the message gets quite ambiguous when it comes from those who have amassed small fortunes for themselves preaching that very message.

What a question. Personally I figure that the Devil is a little too wary to have one primary way ans if I attempt to list all the various ways by my estimate it would take at least 214,753 pages if I could list 2240 per page. The devil has more than 10M ways to attack but there's only one truth and one narrow way that leads to salvation.

I quit worrying about being PC as soon as I learned what it meant. The Gospel will never be PC. In my opinion any time we attempt to conflate anything about God's word with anything political, it's like oil and water. That said, I also just want to mention that I find it really scary to even harbor the thought of making public schools responsible for teaching the teachings of Christ to our children. First, it's not going to happen so it's a fools errand to even try and even if it could, how would you propose that it be administered. Should they teach Catechism since Catholics are the majority denomination or should they preach the Prosperity Gospel because they have backers who subscribe to it? Who should tell them what to teach? Bad idea I say. And for what it's worth, it's not PC when I remind folks that there are 20x more sinful 2nd marriages as same sex ones and they are just as sinful but I do it anyway because Christ taught us to teach the truth and didn't mention being PC. If you get right down to it Christ wasn't very PC in His day either so I feel I'm in good company.