Biblican

There is a big difference between what you say is rearranging scripture and coordinating scripture to see how it all fits. The 144 are seen safely in heaven after the rapture of the churches/witnesses in chapter 11. They have to be churches because they are called candlesticks. There is no other application for the word in Revelation. They don't remain in chapter seven which is a prophetic picture of what happens to those two groups in the future. Most misinterpretations of Revelation occur because they are dreams/visions and unless one has a gift of interpreting visions they are going to come up with false interpretations. You have to understand prophetic symbolism. Satan was cast down when Jesus ascended not at the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet signals the beginning of God's wrath. The best book by someone who understands prophetic revelation is here - https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html It should give you a different perspective and it corrects a lot of previous misinterpretations.

The tribulation does not really begin until the end of chapter fourteen. In chapter eleven we see the two witnesses who are identified as "candlesticks" in verse four which means they have to be representing churches. There is no other application for the word in Revelation. Most likely they represent the spiritual conditions of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the uncompromised remnant. They are called up just before the last trumpet sounds. Trumpets in scripture are used to announce religious gatherings or war. The context suggests war. So the "warning period of the trumpets" ends with a rapture and the tribulation begins. If you look at the two groups in chapter seven, the 144 and the church that comes out of great tribulation, pick that chapter up in your mind and set it down over chapters fourteen and fifteen, you see the same two groups, only the 144 are safely in heaven before the wrath is poured out at the end of that chapter. The remainder of the church that goes through the tribulation is seen in chapter fifteen. The Philadelphians are promised to be "kept" and I believe that are the 144. They are not just Jews as Manasseh replaces Dan, which shows us the tribes are symbolic. That's how I see it anyway. Very few Christians I believe are in the Phildelphian category. That's why Jesus told us to pray that we are worthy to escape.

I teach the Trinity or the tri-unity from Isaiah 42:1 - Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. In this verse we see all three, God the Father who is doing the speaking, the Holy Spirit and the Messiah in one verse. Jesus said God the Father is one Spirit (John 4:24) and the Holy Spirit is His Spirit (Matthew 10:20). In order for Jesus to take our sins upon Himself, His soul had to be a distinct begotten entity from the Father. In this verse we see God unifying Himself with the Messiah making the two one. God is never disconnected from His own Spirit, "I and My Father are One." (John 10:30). The scripture also shows us that God has a soul "My soul delights." Therefore God's two of soul and Spirit are unified with the Messiah's soul making them a Trinity. All three are distinct from each other, all three operate simultaneously and all three are one God because they are all the one spirit that is God the Father.

When the definition says without a body it means a physical body. "Lacking any physical source." A dis-embodied soul is one without a physical body. The example I gave you in scripture of Samuel is a disembodied soul, a soul that has been separated from a physical body. So for you to say that there is no such thing as a disembodied soul in scripture is completely wrong and misleading. The soul does not have a body, it is its own body or element completely different from the physical body that has mass, as a disembodied soul can pass though solid objects.

Good job. I found that its important to understand the distinctions between, body, soul and spirit to also help us understand the Trinity. Sometimes the words for soul and spirit are used interchangeably, but they are both two very distinct elements that are unified in the human to the point of being almost indistinguishable. Thus the Father's Spirit is unified with His begotten Son's soul making them one.

You are still mis-using the word disembodied which instigated the confusion.

I believe that all the righteous dead entered paradise. Enoch was before Abraham, he walked with God and was not, God took him, so he would have entered paradise and also righteous Noah and his family. The covenant and distinction that was made with Abraham was concerning the lineage through which the Messiah would come, which made him special and the father of many nations. The covenant that God made with Abraham would be replaced by the New Covenant that Jesus would bring as Prophesied by Jeremiah.

I agree, all the righteous souls who died prior to Jesus went to Paradise, and it was located in the center of the earth according to the Hebrews, which is confirmed by Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

Jesus was a sacrifice for Adam. Sin is the only reason that Jesus was foreordained. Sin is the only reason that keeps people from entering heaven after the fall. Adam's design was complete. He was created with a body like ours that is subject to temptation.

I gave you the example of Samuel who is a disembodied soul, meaning a soul without a physical body. You said that the soul has a body and I agreed with that and added later that the soul is its own body. What is your problem?

When I was a child, every Christmas my grandparents would take me to the large living nativity in our town (at least until the llama spit on my grandmother). That nativity which I remember so clearly, was a beautiful public witness to the birth of Jesus. Now thanks to the communists working in our federal, state and local governments, public displays associated with the Christian faith are swiftly being eradicated. Nativities like the one I attended as a child are now just a Christmas memory. Some Christians are also vehemently opposed to Christmas by claiming that it is a pagan celebration and are inadvertently working along with the communists to eliminate Christmas. While certain elements associated with Christmas have pagan origins, that does not negate the fact that the day was established to celebrate Jesus’ birth. Like the Hebrew celebration of Purim, Christmas is a man designated celebration of our deliverance from death through the birth of the Messiah Jesus. We feast and exchange gifts just as the Jews celebrated their deliverance from death (Esther 9:22). The Biblical celebration called Purim can be viewed as a foreshadow of our celebration of Jesus. It is the responsibility of true Christians to affirm the Christ in Christmas which overrides any pagan influences. I am sure the communists and the devil who is influencing them, would like to see all Christmas celebrations eliminated. Let’s not co-operate with them. Make the day a glorious celebration of Jesus’ birth and keep our Christmas heritage from becoming just a memory.

You'll have to be more specific, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Sorry.

Adam's body was given life by the breath. Most likely he experienced God's Holy Spirit in his soul before he sinned, but it was not his life force as it is for Jesus. Adam probably did feel the loss of the Spirit when he sinned and that must have been a horrific experience. David felt a little of it when he sinned with Bathsheba. We can have the Holy Spirit now and feel His presence before the resurrection.

Adam would not be able to enter Heaven because he was not designed to live there. Whether he was sinless or not has no bearing on his situation before the fall. Sin is the only reason that keeps us from entering heaven after the death of the body. We have to be redeemed. After Adam sinned, he would have to be redeemed like the rest of us.

You are not making any sense. It's apparent that because you did not understand the use of the word disembodied which I was trying to correct, the fault lies in your own inability to make yourself clear.

Humans were designed to live on this planet. Adam did not have access to God's dimension. Humans were given life by the breath, which is not the Holy Spirit. The only way a soul can enter heaven after death is if it the soul is unified with the Holy Spirit. The only way a soul can be unified by the Holy Spirit is if they repent and receive Jesus as their Savior.

They are all different ways of saying the same thing, no contradictions.

He still would not have been able to enter heaven because he was designed to live on earth.

You want evidence of the silver cord being broken? People die. That's evidence enough. The word disembodied means "Lacking a body or freed from the body, incorporeal." Dictionary.com I understand your point that the soul is not bodiless, and I agree with that, but you are not using the correct terminology to demonstrate your point. I agree that the soul is a body, but it does not have one. It is one unit so to speak.

You were misusing the definition of the word disembodied, which means a soul that has been removed from its physical body. When you said that there were no disembodied souls in the Bible what you were saying, based on the misuse of the word disembodied, was incorrect and misleading. The soul is the person of anyone and retains the characteristics of the person it was in life. The soul does not have a body, it is it's own body. The breath of life in Genesis is not the Ruach, which the Apostle Paul makes very clear in I Corinthians 15:45. The only human to be given life by the Ruach is Jesus which is the "life in Himself" John 5:26. Adam was made a living soul, which means the breath (nashamah) animates and gives life to the physical body enabling the soul to live as a human. The soul is a distinct entity from the body being made by God and fashioned in the womb (Isaiah 57:16,Jeremiah 38:16,1:5). When the spirit (breath) is removed from the body it dies (James 2:26) and the soul is released. This is why we preach the gospel, to save souls which enables them to ascend into God's dimension when they receive Jesus' Holy Spirit. It's not complicated and you really don't need a letter after your name to be able to understand how it all works.

There are no sinless humans, because "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23. Humans cannot enter heaven unless they believe the Gospel, repent and receive Jesus as Savior. They are then unified with the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Eternal Life and when they die they will ascend with the Spirit into God's dimension.

James 2:19 says that the devils believe in God and they tremble. What do you think is the difference between a believing devil and us? They can't repent, which is obvious. People who can't repent, can't receive Jesus as Savior. I never said that Jesus was to be a savior for the devils. You said, "The devil kind has been judged to eat the dust of the earth forever." The prophecies that this earth is going to be destroyed someday will be fulfilled leaving the devils and all those who follow them trapped in the cold outer darkness that Jesus' described. What you are seeing is that the devils cannot inhabit God's dimension. It is the devil's disease of pride that keeps people from repenting and receiving Jesus. Leviathan is used as a similitude of the devil in Job, where we are told that he is king over all the children of pride." Job 41:15,34.

There are no inconstancies in what I said. I agree Adam and Eve were made corruptible. They had bodies of flesh that were subject to the lusts of the flesh. They only sinned when they acted on those lusts and disobeyed God. They were designed to inhabit earth and the Nashamah, the breath that gave them life was not designed to transport them into God's dimension after the death of the body and their souls were released. In order for a soul to enter heaven it must be redeemed and that is why Jesus came. Our believing souls receive the Holy Spirit which overrides the breath and transports the soul into heaven when we die. When God created creatures with free will, He knew through His foreknowledge that some would make the wrong choices and that started with Satan who injected his disease of pride into humanity. God is eliminating that sin of pride by giving us the choice of receiving Jesus which takes humility in order to do that. The devils believe in God, what they can't do is repent and admit they have sinned. All those who are infected with the devil's disease and cannot repent cannot enter heaven and will remain trapped in this dimension and will not be able to enter the dimension of the New Heaven and earth. So again, Jesus was ordained to be the Redeemer. No one can enter God's presence unless the soul is forgiven and unified with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

I have to say, based on my own research, that the soul can be separated from the spirit at death, because the scriptures say that the spirit, the breath, the lifeforce returns to God when the body dies, and the body without the spirit is dead. The soul remains trapped in this dimension unless it has been redeemed. That is why our souls have to be unified with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit overrides the neshamah which was never designed to transport the soul into heaven because humans were designed to live on earth. Jesus' life force is the Holy Spirit, the Ruach, which makes Him Divine, "God" and is given to us through faith in His atonement.

I agree, except that when "the silver cord" (Ecc 12:6.) has been "loosed" the soul is completely disconnected from the body and can no longer re-enter. There are souls without a human body in the Bible. If you keep using the word disembodied the way you are using it, it will only mislead people.