Charlie744

I am not sure what all of this is about.... sorry. So, who is the little horn of Daniel 7? Is this the one God is writing about who will go against Him, His saints, His people, etc.? If so, the question then becomes when does he arrive and begin his "anti-Christ" like pracitices?

There is a lot of interesting thoughts in the above, and they do reflect many of “today’s accepted interpretations” on this “anti- Christ.” If you do not mind, let me make some comments regarding this anti-Christ and ask for your (anyone’s) thoughts: 1) in order to be termed “anti-Christ,” it must, obviously be something that occurs only after the cross. 2) Jesus Himself said that in 1 John 2:18, many anti- Christs have come. Meaning, anyone who rejects Jesus is the Son of Man and the Messiah. They will speak and act in a manner that is against the gospel. And of course, this could be many / millions…and has been since the cross 3) But nowhere in the NT does it tell us that this “anti-Christ” IS AN SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL, or a CERTAIN PERSON. I believe this term “AntiChrist” maybe found only 4 times in Peter’s writings and it speaks of “the spirit of anti-Christ.” 4) However, God does go to great lengths in identifying a SPECIFIC PERSON who will be and do many things that are against God. And he is specifically identified in Daniel 7 as the “little horn.” Within Chapter 7, God reveals the many things this one will do against His people, His saints, His church and even against Him directly. 5) So who is this “little horn” and when does he surface? Doesn’t Chapter 7 tells us all about him? He is also found in Chapters 8,9 and 11. He is the one that will continue until the end (not come at the end) when he will be destroyed without human hands (God). Any thoughts on this? If we are looking for a literal “anti-Christ” person, isn’t God revealing him in Daniel for us to be able to identify him and all that he will do AGAINST God?

The last week of the prophecy begins with the Messiah being baptized in the Jordan by John and anointed by His Father. This begins His ministry and the last 7 years of the 490 year period. The prophecy began in 457 BC, which is also the beginning of the 4th and final Great Jubilee which also lasts exactly 490 years in 33/34 AD (last year of the prophecy). Within the 4 verses (9:24-27), there are 2 sets of verses: 2 “restorative” and 2 “destructive. In the “restorative” verses, we find the coming of the Messiah, the restoration of the city and Sanctuary, and His people. In the “destructive” verses, we find the destruction of the Messiah, the destruction of the city and the Sanctuary and His people.

Have not read it. Not interested in a reconciliation between our flawed history books and His Word. Certainly, we travel from Adam to today through the many kingdoms and nations that are also found in our history books, but Scripture does interpret Scripture. I believe using extra-biblical sources (in Daniel) has created so many misinterpretations. Daniel is such a difficult book to unpack and folks look to our history books to try and match up or find historical actors or events that might fit those difficult verses in Daniel. And it then becomes the go to method in finding comfort in their interpretations. The perfect example is Chapter 11 where interpreters contend just how accurate it is to our actual historical events found in the post-Alexander period - despite needing to go out some 150 years to a relatively nobody like AE. But Chapter 11 has nothing that do with the Ptolemy’s, the Seleucid’s or AE. It is largely discussing the 4th kingdom of Rome. Daniel is not a history book. God will identify the “structure” of the 4 kingdoms and period of time where His people will travel through. He will incorporate His prophetic messages within these kingdoms and time periods. The kingdoms, their kings and conflicts are not the story as so many of “today’s accepted interpretations” suggest. The story is His plan of restoration and salvation through these 4 kingdoms and culminates with the coming Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy. God has indeed given us all the information within Daniel to identify the 4 kingdoms, their kings and how / when each will conquer the other. And He weaves His prophetic word through them - and in the latter chapters, we will find less and less need to turn to our history books because they speak of His plan of salvation that is not found in our history books.

Gustave, I can't speak to the issue of the Trinity, for I find it hard to imagine an Adventist not believing that Jesus is deity, however, closing events is something I can speak to. In my situation I haven't been able to just keep what I believe is the correct interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy to myself, but rather feel it is my obligation to share what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me by of studying material out side of our own publications. I often have done this by presenting these materials to pastors and laity both.. in various churches as I have moved around the country in the past forty years. The response is either silence, which conveys to me the leadership or laity choses not to consider anything being different because they assume it to be wrong. The other response is to issue me an ultimatum too desist passing out books promoting any interpretation that is different than what we have sanctioned since the Great Controversy was written by E.G. White in 1888. The issue here is, If we were to update out interpretation we would have to admit that Mrs.White was wrong in claiming that many of the prophecies were fulfilled in the past, which they were not. We are not willing to admit that prophets do make mistakes if they speak and reason outside of inspiration. Here in lies the issue from my perspective. We like those anticipating the pre-trib rapture, were all in the same boat. So when closing events materialize differently than what we assume, our faith will be shattered just like it was during the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. Truth is progressive and additive, but religions seldom move from their foundational teachings. This is a historical fact. The good news is prophecy reveals God will leap frog all religions and select 144,000 servant/prophets to carry the gospel to the whole world, then the end will come, right on time. https://clubadventist.com/forums/uploads/reactions/react_like.png Quote Reply to this topic... Go to topic listing Next unread topic If you find some value to this community, please help out with a few dollars per month. https://www.paypalobjects.com/en_US/i/scr/pixel.gif Unread Content Mark site read Home Top 5 busiest forums on the Adventist forum Theological Townhall The Papacy Sho Were you a member of the SDA at some point?

I never said that! I said I provided a copy to FRIENDS of mine who are SDA members… THEY will no longer speak with me. I never had any desire to try and change their church beliefs… If I gave a copy to 100 Catholics, I guarantee I would receive the same kind of response or worse. In any event, these nice folks were always telling me they believe they have the right interpretation of the Book of Daniel, AND, they are always open to new interpretations and ideas. Well, that certainly didn’t prove true. They have absolutely no tolerance for any other interpretation than what they have already committed to print.

Totally agree with you but the key to this is that "we must be willing to accept Jesus as our Messiah and allow the Holy Spirit into our lives." Without that conscience decision, we have no hope of being with God. For your second comment: No, I am not an SDA... but I can assure you that since I have provided a copy of this commentary to friends of mine that are SDA - since their childhood, have LITERALLY shunned me. They will not have anything to do with me anymore - apparently, my interpretations on the 2300 days, the time, times, and 1/2 time, the 1290 and 1335 days prophecies and a few others have, by departing from their interpretations, are an attempt to corrupt thier denomination. When I lived in Pennsylvaniz (almost all of my life), I was aware of the Mennonite and Amish communities in Lancaster county - not too far away. And I had heard of their "shunning" of their members, even those within their immediate family. But it is one thing to hear of it, another to be shunned. So, I do not get a chance to speak with any of them anymore.

When Adam sinned, what was removed or taken away? It was not his breath or air - he continued to breathe. What had to be taken from him is the one thing that separated man from the animals God created… He breathed His Holy Spirit into Adam. No, I don’t believe I missed that … I specifically mentioned that once Adam sinned, God’s spirit had to return to Him. It was Gods to give and take away. Now, Adam was no longer a living SOUL, but a living BEING - devoid of God’s righteousness or holiness within him. So, after the fall, when Adam died, he will return to the ground. He stops breathing air and dies. That is it. Nothing else happens—- there is no other part of Adam to move on after death. He will simply have to wait until the resurrection when God will either put His Holy Spirit back into him or he will be destroyed forever. Yes, I am fairly sure I said this. Yes. Well, I don’t think they cause their first death. The first death applies to EVERY LIVING BEING (believer or not). However, it is before this FIRST DEATH that one will determine if there is going to be a second death. Yes. No, once they sinned, God’s Holy Spirit departed from within Adam and had to return to the Lord. He, like ALL mankind that were born outside the Garden would be a living being ONLY. They would have no ability to restore God’s Holy Spirit within themselves. Only God has it to give… and no amount of “works” can restore this. God’s plan of salvation is to once again restore His Holy Spirit back into us. He will only do that for those that have placed their faith and trust in Him and accept His sacrifice on the cross. That is it. Just as He told Moses, you can not see my face and live! The ONLY way to see Him and survive is through the cross… He will clothed us in His righteousness once again and we will see Him clearly.

Just so you know, I have not studied Revelation and I know nothing about it. I think I might know something about Daniel.... I think I mentioned to you that my approach to studying Daniel was as if I was Jew in the early 1st century. The ONLY source documents I would have access to and would study would be the Tankh and of course Daniel. I certainly would not consider taking a look at any Gentile history books that may have been around at that time. In other words, God had indeed given His people all the information with His Scriptures to understand and interpret Daniel. Daniel will interpret Daniel quite well if we were to follow this approach. I would suggest that almost everyone who attempts to interpret Daniel will be more than comfortable using our history books and the Book of Revelation to determine many of the most important verses in Daniel. These would be the verses that are most difficult and seemingly impossible to interpret. But Daniel is not a history book and Revelation should not be considered in studying Daniel. Daniel must be interpreted on its own and then carry those interpretations forward to Revelation. But the Jews before the coming of the Lord on the first day of the 70th week of years prophecy would have access to the Tanakh (obviously includes Daniel) to read, study and interpret. And that is exactly what we should do. I don't understand this comment since you agreed Daniel should be studied before Revelation. I must be missing something here, but it is all good. Totally agree. The only time that Daniel would add anything to what he saw or was told by either God or Gabriel was in Chapter 5. Everything else did not come from within Daniel. No, I am not tyring to interpret Daniel as if I was sitting at the same table as Nebuchadnezzar. I am sitting with the other Jews studying Daniel before the first coming of the Messiah. That would be my "contempory" view because Daniel was written of three different audiences. 1) Daniel can and in my opinion can be carved into 3 time periods: a) Time of exile in 606 BC to 539 BC. This is the 70 years on exile in Babylon. b) From 457 BC to 33/34 AD. This is dominated by the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It will be completed exactly 3.5 years after the cross. c) From 33/34 AD to His second coming. This period covers the beginning of His church, the 10 horns, the little horn, and all the events that would take place until His second coming. (but God does not go into details after the little horn comes to full power (approximately 500 AD to the end. Of course, Chapter 7 and 8 offer more than enough details on what this little horn will do for those 1500 years). Consequently, the Book of Daniel is more than adequate to provide all the necessary information for each of the 3 audiences. Obviously, the Jews were given all the prophetic, historical information for them to read, study and interpret the coming of their Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. They did not need history books or Revelation or any other source document to see how God was going to restore His people and His city and the messianic prophecies within Daniel in time for His arrival. And of course, the entire Book of Daniel is written for all those who would come after the cross (but once again, we do not need to bring in any extrabiblical source records to unpack Daniel.... in fact, this is one of the major reasons why Daniel has yet to be properly interpreted - we are looking to find our interpretations to our history books. They are not there! I am sorry but the end of your comments here is so wrong. First, everything that happened from the time of the exile to the cross happened exactly as it was suppose to happen. This was God's plan from the foundation of the world. The Jews had studied the Tanakh and Daniel and were expecting their Messiah to arrive. However, this is where God purposefully and partially blinded their eyes so they would not recognize their Messiah. This was His doing, not theirs. The Jews had absolutely no choice in the matter. There was not ONE Jew who believed He as their Messiah - not ONE. It was only after His resurrection would we find Jews that would accept Him as their Messiah. Even Paul, who was a Pharisee among Pharisee would recognize Him and only until He had his Damascus experience. This was God's plan from the beginning. I am not sure what you mean when you say that Israel was redefined not by blood but by faith. The Jews or Israel were never defined by blood. It was always by their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Each of the 3 patriachs exhibited their amazing faith in God. Abraham was not a Jew, Isaac was not a Jew and Jacob was the father of 12 ... they were not chosen because of their blood or had a special relationship with them because of the "Jewish" blood, it was always about faith in the one true God. And regarding the promises of God statement. Once again, and this is so important, God certainly knew the Jews would reject Him and He would be crucified. This was His plan from the beginning of the world. They will always be His "chosen" people even until the end of time. Everytime God made a covenant with man it was man who could not keep his end of the agreement. Everytime. The Jews were no different - human nature but God will always keep His promises. At the end of the time of the Gentiles, God will remove their blindness from their eyes and they will recognize the One they have pierced. They will mourn in sackcloth and go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus just as Paul had done after his Damascus experience. So, they will no longer be made "desolate" as it is told in Chapter 9. I am sure I am not understanding this the way you might have meant it to say. But I will comment on it as I think what it says. The rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the verses in Daniel are to be sorted into two relevant time periods - those that pretain to the time of the Messiah, and those that are end times or apocalyptic. As mentioned above, there are 3 audiences to the Book of Daniel and whether there is no event within Daniel that would determine how we should view them - God has already revealed His plan and He knew exactly what was going to happen... meaning, the prophecies within the 70 weeks of years, the visions and dreams found within Daniel would happen and would be interpreted as He has decided. His prophecies or the way we should or might have interpreted them were not dependent on whether the Jews rejected Him or not.... I believe it is entirely wrong to suggest that we should identify whether a verse or prophecy in Daniel falls into a time period that belongs around the time of the Messiah or is an end time prophecy, based on whether the Jews rejected Him or not. I have spent the last 5 years studying Daniel and my interpretations are completely different than "today's accepted interpretations," even though there is absolutely no consensus among the scholars, academics or theologians - NONE. And I understand why they believe what they believe - when they attempt to interpret the verses in Daniel because there are many verses that neither camp (preterist or futurist) have addressed. They are simply too difficult. I don't mine your ending statement, after all, I am the very least one who would be found studying Daniel or any book in the Scriptures. But this is what I found myself doing and nothing else for these five years. I don't know how I got here. It has been the most intense and difficult task that I have ever been though. It was at least 100 times more difficult and impossible to unpack and interpret than any business case or issue during my career. In fact, I laugh outloud when I compare them to the study of Daniel. Getting back to Daniel; Almost all of Daniel takes place from 606 BC to the time the little horn gains full power in around 500 AD. The majority of events/ prophecies, etc., occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This period is God's prophecies to restore His people and His city back after the Babylonian destruction and exile. This prophecy will take His people from the decree of Cyrus to allow them to return home to the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. This, obviously, is the most important prophecy and time in the history of man - and it is so because God would literally arrive on the earth. With the exception of revealing the physical destruction of the city and the sanctuary in the "destructive" verses in Chapter 9 and that He would make "desolate" His relationship with His people for the next 2000 years (their rejection of Him), all of Chapter 9 is about the arrival, His death, and His God given mission (9:24). All of it is neatly wrapped in the last 7 years of the prophecy. I look forward to hearing from you. And, although you did not mention what prophecies had "turned" from one that "would have" or "might have" been relevant to the time of the Messiah to an "end time" prophecy (apocalyptic) prophecy (depending on whether the Jews accepted or rejected Him), the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy is all about the Messiah during the last week of the prophecy. That was always meant to be interpreted and attributed to Jesus, not to a series of secular events from 457 to 1844. The Sanctuary was indeed cleansed by the only One who could possibly cleanse it - the Messiah. The purpose of Stephan was not to identify the end of the last week or the final 3.5 years of the prophecy. His God given mission was so much more important that serving as a time marker closing out the last week. He was specifically given the role to tell all the Pharisees and Jews (after the cross) that Jesus was the Son of Man, and the "Just One" who they crucified. And just before they stoned him to death, God would allow him to see Jesus standing at the right hand of God." This was his mission, and this was our confirmation that the sacrifice of Jesus was accepted by His Father in heaven. The heavenly Sanctuary was cleansed....."It is finished."

I just wrote a decent response to your comments and then the internet went out and I lost it all... I will rewrite it later on... depressed.

Well, I think we can agree, that there is absolutley no consensus on the interpretations of the Book of Daniel. Even among the Academics, the Scholars, the Theologians there can be found many very different interpretations - some futurist, some preterist, some that are simply out of this world.... And I don't want to read into your comment above, but are you saying that 925 is speaking of a time outside the 70 weeks of years prophecy? That prophecy began in 457 BC and ended in 33/34 AD. Jesus, arrived to be baptized in the Jordan by John and was "anointed" by His Father on the first day of His ministry - this was the very first day of the last week in the prohecy. He would travel thoughtout Israel for 3.5 years of the last week before He was rejected by His people and crucified. The 70 years prophecy is completed and the Messiah fulfilled all 6 of His God given missions (9:24) before He returned to His Father.

First, thank you very much for taking the time and consideration to respond so thoughtfully. I would like to mention a few things that, hopefully, will address my previous interpretations / comments: 1) Yes, to me, there is absolutely no question that God has gone to great lengths to identify the little horn. Given all the characteristics, attributs and timing, he can only be the papacy or the evil one in Chapter 11. 2) I have approached Daniel as though I was living in Israel before the coming of the Messiah. Meaning, the Book of Daniel would be available to me within the Scriptures and the Tanach would be quite sufficient on its own to read, study and learn about the coming Messiah. It was indeed written for the Jews and His city wrapped within the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Therefore, I did not attempt to access Revelation and quite frankly, I know nothing of the final book. Consequently, I can not compare, reconcile or match the symbols, events and actors in Daniel to those found in Revelation. I am only doing Daniel if you will. And Daniel must be interpreted before one takes on Revelation, otherwise, as so many have already done, they have brought their own interpretations of Revelation back to Daniel... That is not the way God intended this to happen... 3) I cannot comment of Revelation nor use it as a source record to corroborate Daniel. Again, I cannot comment on this.. Whether Satin is released during the 1000 years, with his fallen angels and forced to endure that time without any humans to deceive or some other interpretation, I have no idea. However, I do not believe God will allow Satan to come upon the earth to attack mankind as EVERYONE CONTENDS (7 year tribulation). There is no "antiChrist" found in Daniel or Revelation. The little horn is found in both and he will be destroyed by God.... Ok, I am going to try an respond to your comments by breaking them into manageable sections (for me). The little horn of Daniel 7 is the same as in Chapter 8. Oh, I see ... I think! I believe you are indicating the little horn of Daniel 7 might be AE around the time of 170 BC? And, the second little horn of Daniel 8 is the papacy? If that is the case, we do have a difference of opinion... but I believe I have heard this before. And unfortunately, it might be too difficult for me to respond as I would like since this is such a huge topic. Time periods: There are four and only four kingdoms identified in the Chapter 2 metal man image. This is designed so that we can identify the exact 4 kingdoms that will be found, NOT IN OUR HISTORY BOOKS, but in God's Plan of salvation. God will include and exclude whatever events and actors that might be found in our history books... if they are not important within His Plan of salvation, they are not included... and we have to determine His very formal structure. Therefore, He will purposely use metal types and defined parts of a man to ensure we understand each of the four kingdoms are separate, unique, the actors and events will be only found within their respective kingdom, there is no bleeding of actors or events between the four kingdoms. He has given us the external and internal borders, boundaries, restrictions and guidlines so our interpretations can only be found within the kingdom He has chosen. i will jump to the 3rd kingdom because you may be referring to AE as being the first little horn - Daniel 7. After the death of Alexander, God will identify that his kingdom will be given over to his 4 generals. But the kingdom is Alexander's kingdom and he was given a specific mission to fulfill with regard to His people. The four generals were not given a "mission" but simple were identified to "close out" the 3rd kingdom ... awaiting the coming of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. There is nothing in Daniel that hints, refers to, speaks about anyone, no actors or events that took place once the 3rd kingdom was "closed out" (time of the 4 generals) and the start of the 4th kingdom. Again, there is no bleeding between these two kingdoms and their is no space / place / gap / etc., found in the metal man image between any of the kingdoms. Thus, AE, the Ptolemy's, the Seluecid's, Cleopatra, etc., do not belong either in the 3rd or the 4th kingdoms. They are indeed found in our history books but they have been brought into our interpretations of Daniel because they are attempting to interpret Daniel using a "historical" approach. Meaning, they have the book of Daniel on the left side of their desk and their history books on the right side and attempt ot find the actors and events that can be found in our history books to those extremely difficult verses in Daniel. Which is why I have mentioned that the ONLY source records to interpret Daniel is the Book of Daniel and those applicable verses in the Tanakh that speak of the coming Messiah. Therefore, there is no reconciliation needed, and also, as mentioned above, no need to compare with the Book of Revelation... The Jews had the Tanakh to access and I believe that God felt they had all they needed to read, study and interpret Daniel. So, no AE or those actors and events post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome have no place in Daniel. Horns: In Chapter 2, God chose the metal man image and the parts of a man (like a belt and suspenders approach), to ensure we understood just what 4 kingdoms and actors He was speaking about in the Book of Daniel (all 12 chapters). He will use different symbols in Chapter 7 that reveal their animal type nature willing to destroy the next kingdom and like wild animals, they do not concern themselves with God whatsoever. It is a different view of the four kingdoms / mankind that in Chapter 2 - but they are the same four kingdoms. God is not changing the players from chapter 1 to 12.. As a matter of fact, the ONLY new actor not revealed in Chapter 2 is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. And that is indeed purposeful.... However, in Chapter 8, God will once again depart from the symbols used in either Chapters 2 or 7. Now, He will begin to carve out those specific actors or kingdoms that will continue forward within His Plan of salvation. He will ONLY identify those actors by their "horns." Before, His symbols were at the "kingdom" level, now, they will be identified (or left out) depending on whether He has assigned them a "horn" (power). There are only 3 powers / horns that God wants us to foucs on: the two horned ram of the Medes- Persia, the one horned he-goat of Greece, and the final and only remaining horn of the fourth kingdom - the little horn. And you will note that pagan Rome is NOT included... they have not been assigned a "horn." Also, it is clear that there are no horns given to any actor such as AE or the Ptolemy's, etc. They simply are only to be found in our history books. So, the little horn of Daniel 7 comes out of the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome... not the 3rd kingdom of Greece or between the two kingdoms. He will come out of pagan Rome AFTER the 10 horns come out of pagan Rome. The 10 horns are the same as the 10 toes in the Chapter 2 image. I understand your comment. He does not arise out of nowhere. He definitely comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome just after the 10 toes / 10 horns come out of pagan Rome. And he does come out of the four winds as opposed to the 4 generals who come out of the 3rd kingdom and "TOWARDS THE FOUR WINDS." Here, God is telling us these four generals are being thrown into the four winds or the turmoil and instability of the post Alexander kingdom. But the little horn will come directly out of pagan Rome and as he climbs to power, one will definitely emerge FROM OUT OF THE FOUR WINDS. Meaning, the Gentile / Christian church would grow exponentially within the first 400 years after the cross. The Gentiles would dominate the church which began with the disciples and those Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah. Those Gentiles withi this powerful Gentile /Christian church would structiure the church in an Imperial Roman type structure with levels of powers (priests, bishops, etc.) with tremendous powers the higher they climbed within this organiztion. There was much turmoil, fighting within this church. There would be four separate Gentile/Christian powers - Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Rome. They each wanted to be the head of this new church. It will be the bishops of the Roman church that would rise to the top. This is the four winds of turmoil, infighting, etc., when the bishops of Rome will rise to the top. And soon, the bishop of Rome will become known as the pope (little horn). Again, I understand your comments. Daniel 7 is speaking about the little horn that comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Now, regarding the 2300 days prophecy in Chapter 8, this has nothing to do with 1844. I understand where this originates. The 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy given to Daniel in Chapter 8 by God Himself (time element) speakd directly to the last week in the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It is not to be converted into years. It specifically relates to what it is identified with ... the cleansing of the Sanctuary. Now, can you name me more than one individual who can cleanse the Sanctuary? No, only the Messiah can and did cleanse the Sanctuary during the last week of His ministry - the last 7 years of the 70 weeks. Again, I can not comment on this as I have not studied Revelation but there is nothing in Daniel that remotely speaks to this... The evil one in Chapter 11 is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 who will continue until the end of time... he does not arrive at the time of the end. God will destroy him personally. Completely agree. But he is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. I cannot begin to comment on any of this... except, none of this can be found in Daniel. Sorry, I have no understanding of Revelation and cannot comment on this... but, if you are, as millions have done, try to bring these interpretations back into Daniel, I can assure you, they cannot not be found in Daniel. Which brings me back to the earlier comment. Daniel must be interpreted first and then that understanding will help interpret Revelation. They will not conflict with each other but so many have used Revelation to interpret Daniel. I look forward to your thought and comments...

So, are you saying that verse 4 is telling us we cannot understand the Book of Daniel? Just parts of it? None of it? Or, perhaps it might mean it (prophecies) are now complete and they will continue until the end of time? Because the Book of Daniel does focus on two periods of time: primarily the 490 years of the prophecy ending with the cross, and then, in a general way, those events and actor (little horn) who will continue until the end. There are the “latter days” from Daniel’s point in time- time of the cross, and the true “end times.” But God is not giving the Jews at the time of the coming Messiah, and all after the cross, the Book of Daniel will not be understood until the end. Didn’t Jesus in Matthew and Mark tell His disciples about the AOD…. Let him understand….

So why is God spending so much of His prophecies on the 10 toes, the 10 horns, the 10 kings, and the little horn? Do you believe they only speak to the time of the end? Doesn't God tell us the little horn will continue until the end of time (not arrive at the end of time)? And that he will be destroyed without human hands (by God Himself)? Just as the symbols in Chapter 2 of Daniel symbolize the 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea, God will also depict these 4 kingdoms in a very different manner in both Chapters 7 and 8. Same 4 kingdoms, but He will reveal different characteristics, attributes, and provide more information for us to identify them and how they are relevant within His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. The more we understand about these symbols in Daniel, the more we can transfer that to the different symbols in Revelation. But Daniel was written for the Jews and His city for the coming Messiah in the first century. It was not written for an audience some 2000 years in the future... although it is certainly relevant to us. But you can not really interpret Revelation without first interpreting Daniel... that is the way God decided this... He had Daniel written for the Jews and then Revcelation will look back and confirm Daniel but it will also add more to the story... just as Chapter's 7 and 8 add more to Chapter 2. The little horn will appropriate His church for over 1500 years, claim equality and divinity with God. He will change God's laws and commandments, preach a very different Gospel, declare salvation can only come through the RCC... Now, if you were to design an individual who would be "antiChrist" like on a truly global scale, do you think this individual would do more things against God over such a long period than the little horn?

I believe I have seen many of the programs when Zola was alive and after when Jeffrey continued on ... they are so enjoyable to watch and learn. But, I do not believe they have addressed the Book of Daniel in a non-futurist view. They seem to have followed so many ... almost all of today's interpreters are have thrown so much of Daniel far into the future.... some 2000 years. Further, they have changed the prophecies from a messianic one (His first coming) to a prophecy about man's possible future kingdoms or nations or powers like the EU, etc. Today's accepted interpretations focus on the mythical antiChrist who will arrive in the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks of years prophecy some 2000 years in the future (from the time of the cross). But the last week of the prophecy was all about the Messiah, the restoration of the city, the Sanctuary, the walls and the streets, the Levitical ceremonies and their way of life that was taken away from them by the Babyloninans. And within the last "set aside" week the Messiah would arrive, be cut off yet He would fulfill His God given mission (9:24), establishe His church on the earth, send His holy spirit on Pentecost, do away with any further need for animal sacrifices and offerings, etc. Thw last week belongs to the Messiah, not some mythical boogeyman some 2000 years later. So, they may have all the stories made up about this future antiChrist figure (who does not exist), but they never discuss who the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8 is.. And so much of these two chapters focus on this little horn.

I hope I did not confuse you or anyone within this forum. Most assuredly, Satan is real! He is the one that disobeyed God and wanted to he like God. But there is no Antichrist literal figure in Daniel or Revelation. The “spirit “ of the Antichrist has been with us since the cross. But God, through Daniel has indeed identified the evil one (chapter 11), who will come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. He will gain power as he climbs within the Jewish/Christian church. The church will begin to take on pagan practices, rituals, and begin to take on an Imperial Roman like structure. It will leave the simple structure of the 1st century Jewish/Christian church and become a Gentile/Christian church by the time of Constantine. The Jews would effectively be removed from this church- it not only would no longer resemble the 1st century church but they would no longer be welcomed in it. This Gentile/Christian church would grow to be a very powerful organization while pagan Rome would decline in world dominance. Within 150 years of Constantine, pagan Rome would be slain and its body destroyed (7:11). This “church” would be ruled by priests, bishops, etc., and gain immense power throughout the church. But at the end of the day, the bishop of Rome would become dominant in this Gentile/Christian church. The major Christian centers of Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch would lose out to the power of Rome. Soon, the bishop of Rome would come to be known as the pope / papacy. This is the one identified in Daniel that will go against His people, appropriate His church, go again His saints, and even go against God Himself. He will think to change God’s laws and commandments, speak pompous words, claim divinity and equality with God. In the name of God they will come to murder anthers torture over 60 million innocent people. Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church … worship of saints, Mary… all of this and so much more is preaching a very different Gospel. If there were a literal individual in the earth would he do more than this against Jesus? We are looking for a supernatural boogeyman to arrive… (which was also promulgated by the papacy in the 16th century AD to remove the label of the little horn from them). But a supernatural monster is not coming as almost all contend… he has been here for over 1500 years demanding we worship him, follow his teachings and practices… Take a piece of paper and on the left side, write down the teachings of Jesus, His commandments, His way of conducting Himself, His willingness to sacrifice everything for His people, would never harm even one of His children, would obey and honor the God of His Father… the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Then in the right side of the paper, write down the teachings, pagan rituals, practices, and commands of the little horn. Worship idols, (2nd commandment), claim equality with God (1st commandment), take God’s name in vain (3rd commandment), change God’s holy day (4th commandment). If you wanted to describe an “Antichrist” figure that would come onto the earth that exemplified one who would go against God, would you or could you find another that would do greater things against God as the little horn (papacy)? This is not a claim against Catholics at all… they have been brilliantly deceived and they follow their teachings. How many generations of children have been taught their teachings over the past 1500 years? They have gained so much power and wealth… (this is the one identified in 8:9, who would become “exceedingly great.” And he will continue until he is destroyed without human hands. So, yes, Satan is real and exists and will be cast into the fire at the end of time, along with all those angels that cited with him. But on this earth, it is the little horn of Daniel 7,8, and 11, that will teach a different Gospel to hundreds of millions over the years. There is only One God, One Gospel, and One path to Salvation… and the pope is not him…

Well, I certainly agree with you. The pope is definitely not the Antichrist, but he is definitely the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. There is no Antichrist literal figure, but there is definitely an Antichrist spirit (way of disobeying God, or doing / professing anything against God… preaching a different Gospel). There are millions even billions that, during the past 2000 years, and certainly today, continue to follow one who preaches a different Gospel and are identified as Christians. Actually, it was the papacy itself that commissioned the Jesuits in the 16th century (time of the Reformation) to design a new interpretation that would remove the label of the papacy as the little horn of Daniel. They literally corrupted the verse in 9:27 and claimed the “he” at the beginning of verse 27 was not the Messiah, but this new “antichrist” figure who would come in the future (Father Ribera). God has gone to great lengths to describe the little horn in Daniel 7,8 and 11.

Perhaps there is another view that you might consider, and maybe we can identify them as a 5 or 10 or 3 or whatever step process before the return of the Lord: 1) The Jews would repeadedly disobey their God and turn to idolatry many times after the time of King David. They would also disobey the keeping of the Sabbath as it relates to their land. 2) God warned them through Jeremiah for many years what would happen if they did not repent. 3) They did not and God used the Babylonians to punish His people, His city, the Temple, everything..... Many were taken captive to Babylon including Daniel for a 70 year period. 4) God promised to restore them to their land after 70 years. He also had Gabriel give Daniel a 70 week of years prophecy that documented the complete restoration plan. If you woud like, we can call this Plan A. a) Within Plan A, Gabriel outlined both the internal and external time elements for the prophecy. It was to be no shorter or longer than 490 literal years, or 70 weeks of years (external time borders). b) Within these borders, Gabriel would disclose 3 separate timed sections that would total the 70 weeks or 490 literal years. c) Gabriel would reveal that the physical elements of the restoration would take place within the first 7 weeks or 49 literal years. This was the responsbility of the Jews. And they would be successful. d) There is no mention of the largest section of the 70 weeks or the 62 weeks or 434 literal years. There is no mention of any physical or spiritual elements to be fulfilled during this timed section. However, it reveals its importance in that in both the "restorative" verses (24-25) Gabriel will disclose this lenght of time when the Messiah will arrive. This obviously is a very important time prophecy as it speaks ONLY to the Messiah. This samed time period is used once again in the "destructive" verses (26-27), which reveals the death of the Messiah. e) Gabriel will also disclose what will take place in the 3rd timed section of the prophecy. This is the arrival of the Messiah on the first day of the 70th week. This last week, this last 7 years of the prophecy has been "set aside" by God for the Messiah to arrive and complete His God given mission. The Jews completed their part of the restoration and now it is time for Jesus to fulfill His part... and He will! 5) The mission assigned to the Jews was to restore all the physical elements that were either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians. They also were to restore the ceremonies, feast days, the sacrifices, offerings, the Sabbatical cyles, etc. And they did. In fact, everything was restored in the reverse order they were either taken or destroyed. 6) The only piece of furniture they could not restore and was the first piece of furniture taken away was the Ark of the Convenant - by Jeremiah before the Babylonians could get their hands on it. And this is also why the last week or 7 years of the prophecy has been "set aside" for the coming Messiah. He will restore the Ark of the Covenant by His presence. Only the Messiah can replace / restore the Ark within the Sanctuary. But He would not or could not arrive until the Jews completed their restorative mission. 7) While the first section of seven weeks, or 49 literal years, is entirely restorative (the physical elements of the restoration of Jerusalem), the third section, or the last week of seven years, is both restorative and destructive. a. The Messiah will fulfill all six of the elements found in verse 24 (already, but not yet). b. The Messiah will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings (immediately at the cross). c. The Messiah will confirm the covenant with His people (immediately at the cross). d. The city, the Sanctuary, and the Temple were to be destroyed (in 70 AD). e. For those of His people who will reject Him as their Messiah, they will experience complete spiritual desolation from their one true God until the time of the Gentiles is finished. So, what does all of this mean? It means that everything written in verses 24-27 represent Plan A - all of this, and certainly more, was designed by God before the foundation of the world. It would only happen this way. As far as the Jews, they had absolutely no choice in the matter. They were given the assigment to reject and crucify their Messiah. They were blinded from recognizing Jesus as their Messiah. There was NOT ONE Jew who believed He was their Messiah, the God of Abraham, Isaace and Jacob. It would take a "Damascus" experience for Paul to understand who Jesus was... only a divine act would reveal this to him. Now, the other long tem prophetic verses in Daniel will speak to the other party who will come AFTER the cross. He is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. He will not arrive for another 400 or so years after the cross. This is the one who for over 1500 years will appropriate His church, go against His people, His laws and commands, claim to be God on earth, able to forgive sin, offer salvation through his church, speak prompous words against His saints and God Himself. This is the one who will continue until the end of the war - until the end of time - until the end of the time of the Gentiles. This is all in Daniel and this is all in Plan A. So, what about thids 7 year tribulation period where a boogeyman arrives and makes an agreement with Israel only to renig in the middle of the 7 years? No found in Scripture - either Daniel or Revelation. The 7 years or the last week of Daniel's prophecy has been fulfilled - the Jews completed their mission, Jesus completed all of His God given mission (9:24). It was written for the Jews and His city... not an audience some 2000 years in the future. But there is still one thing that has to be addressed and it too was purposeful - that is, it was also in Plan A. The Messiah would be cut off exactly in the "midst of the week." This is the middle of the last 7 years of the prophecy. Since the 70 week of years prophecy began exactly in 457 BC, that meant it was to be completed in 33/34 AD. However, the 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle also began in the same year as the prophecy. Both would be completed at the same time (no coincidence of course). But because the Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah, the counting of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle would stop. They were no longer in good standing with their God. This clock would stop exactly at the cross with 3.5 years remaining. Of the required 490 years to complete the 4th GJ 0nly 486.5 years were fulfilled leaving the 3.5 years to be completed. However, as a direct result of their rejection and crucifiying their Messiah, God would make them completely "desolate" for over 2000 years. He would turn His face from them. It is the cross that is / was the "Abomination that causes desolation." The treatment of their Messiah was the most abominable act that mankind could possibly inflict on their God. Thus, He would make "desolate" from His people jntil the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Once again, this is all in Plan A. Now, some 2000 years later, God will physically restore His people, His city, etc., once again. And this time it would divinely take place in 1948. However, just as in the first century, the presence of God is not yet found within Israel. The time of the Gentiles is not yet over. And soon, very soon, God will once again perform a miraclous event with His people. Just as He did with Paul, He will give them a "Damascus" like experience when they will recognize the One they have pierced. In sackcloth, they will go out into the world, exactly as Paul did, and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world for exactly 3.5 years and this will fulfill the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle. And then the Messiah will arrive. Now I do not know about the "tribulation" period... but there is no 7 years gap theory with an mythical "anti-Christ" figure. But I can imagine just how angry and deadly the little horn and all the folks that have dreank their coolaid will react when they see the Jews preaching Jesus ---AS IT SHOULD BE TAUGHT. They will not react very kindly realizing their empire is about to be taken down. I suspect these final 3,5 years will be completed turmoil, fathers against sons, daughters against mothers, neighbor against neighbors, etc. This will not be pretty. Consequently, this just might define the 3.5 years in Revelation where there is true turmoil on a global scale...but it will not be a nuclear war or battles between nations... this will be at the individual level.. where the conflict is whether one accepts the Word of God and His Messiah or the false teachings of the little horn for the past 1500 years. And without going into further details, I can candidly say this time is coming very soon. There other many different interpretations out there speaking about the timing of His second coming... I have not studied them. But in Daniel there is a very well know verse in 7:25 --- "time, times, and 1/2 time." This time element speaks specifically to the second coming of the Messiah.... We are so close!!!! Anyway, this is Plan A... there is not Plan B.... we just have to recognize His Plan within the verses of Daniel.

Are you saying that “it is closed to the end” means the meaning and interpretation is still unknown? What verse(s) and why are you having problems with? Should we look at one verse at a time and unpack it before moving on to the next? What verse in 9:24-27 is telling you “it is closed up till the end? Is it the verse in either Chapter 8 or 12? Because neither tell us these prophecies are to be sealed or closed up - not to be understood. They are to be sealed or closed up because: they are now complete, they are written for the Jews BEFORE the coming of their Messiah. “Gabriel, make him understand…” “I have come to make it known to you….”

Very nice comment William.

For what it is worth, I agree that 11:40-45 are indeed true end time events. However, I have a very different intepretation that what might be considered "today's accepted interpretations." The most important point is that these verses like so many in Daniel are symbolic and verses 40-45 are no different. The use of military like terms does not bring them from the symbolic to the literal as everyone believes. This can also be found at the beginning of Chapter 11 through the entire chapter. The most important finding is just who is the KOS and KON. This is the key to understanding Chapter 11 ... and I might mention it literally took me 7 months - just on this one issue, to crack the door open for Chapter 11. Verses 11:1-4 speak of the pre-Roman kingdoms and ends with the mentioning of the the giving of the Greek kingdom to the 4 generals. Verse 11:4 puts a "close" on these kingdoms. They will never be discussed in Daniel again. Consequently, verse 11:5 begins a completely new discussion that begins with the 4th kingdom of Rome. The entire chapter after 11:5 talks about the coming Messiah, the setting up of His church, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, the coming of the little horn to full power around 500 AD, and then beginning in 11:40, it speaks only to the true end times when the little horn and the 4th beast kingdom will continue for some 1500 years but will soon come to his end. Chapter 11, just like almost all of the chapters in Daniel are not written in chronological order. Instead, they are presented in a "dream sequence" manner (which is nothing more than a "summary" fashion). Then, the remaining verses will discuss those certain details that God wants us to see that take place within those same "dream sequence" verses. He gives us the summay level of events first, then comes back to the detalis that give more of the specifics. I have not yet tried to apply this approach to Genesis, but I am wondering if that is the same approach God is using there when He discusses the creation of everything in a "summary" manner, and then comes back to providing the details that are important within those summary verses. Anyway, the KOS in 11:5 is definitely the key to Chapter 11. And once again, (for what it is worth), the ONLY actors in Chapter 11 will be those that have already been identified in Chapter 2 AND ONE OTHER - in Chapter 7 - that being the little horn who will continue until the end. However, you will indeed find AE, the Ptloemy's, the Seleucid's, and many other Greek and Roman generals or powers and their conflicts documented in our history books. But they have no business in God's plan of salvation for the Jews or mankind.

24“Seventy [e]weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, This period covers 490 literal years beginning in 457 BC and will conclude in 33/34 AD. It is sectioned into 3 separate time elements of 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week. The verses reveal all the physical elements, the Temple, the walls and the streets, etc., that will be completed within the first timed section of 49 years. This time section, the elements that will be restored are the responsibility of the Jews. They are also responsible for reinstating the feast days, the ceremonies, the Sabbatical cycles, etc. BEFORE THE END OF THE 69TH WEEK. Meaning, God has given them the specific time and those elements that must be restored. And the ONLY piece of furniture (element) that would not be fully restored BEFORE THE END OF THE 69TH WEEK would be the very first piece of furniture that was taken from the Holy of Holies by Jeremiah so the Babylonians could not take it with them -- that, of course was the Ark of the Covenant. God's plan of restoration after the Babylonian destruction was to restore everything back the way it was before their exile. And the Jews completed their mission. The ONLY element that could not be restored by the Jews was the return of the Ark of the Covenant. Only God could provide His Presence in the Holy of Holies. Thus, on the very first day of the 70th week of years, the Messiah would be baptized in the Jordan by John and God would call out to Him and declare He was anointed. Jesus would provide the presence of God as the final element to be restored. This is why the 70 weeks were carved out with the one week ending in 33/34 AD. The last week was set aside by God for the return of the Ark and the beginning of His ministry on earth. 25“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The [h]street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Here we find the literal timing of the restoration of the physical elements, then the timing of the Prince (Jesus). Within the first 49 years, the Jews would complete their mission, and after another 62 weeks of years, the Messiah will arrive on the Jordan to be baptized, and begin His ministry. 26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself; Here Daniel is writing about the destruction of the Messiah. Verses 24 and 25 are both "restorative" verses, while 26 and 27 are both "destructive" verses. Thus, after the Messiah arrives (after the end of the 69th week, He will begin His ministry but AFTER THIS PERIOD (meaning the only / final/ last week of the prophecy remaining), He will be "cut off." And of course, His sacrifice is for all mankind who place their faith in Him. And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. In the previous verse of 26, Daniel records the destruction of the Messiah. Here, heis recording the destruction of the physical elements that were restored after their return from Babylon. Notice, it is the "people" who will destroy the city and the sanctuary, not the prince. The city and the Temple and over 1 million Jews will be destroyed in 70 AD by the Roman army led by Titus. Consequently, they are the "people" that destroyed everything, however, they will become subject to the "prince" who is to come. He will come some 400 years later and is identified in Daniel as the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. 27Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The pronoun "He" is none other than the Messiah who will confirm the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34. He will sacrifice Himself for the sin of the world and establish a New Covenant with His people and all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. Within this last set aside week of the prophecy, exactly 3.5 years after He began His ministry, He will be crucified, and as a result of His PERFECT sacrifice, it will bring an end to the sacrificial services and the offerings found within the Levitical system. Further, the Temple, the Sanctuary would no longer hold the presence of God within it. They, along with all the pieces of furniture, the sacred vessels, the first 4 feast days, etc., were fulfilled. They have served their mission within God's plan of salvation. Now, this might be a start at your interpretation and mine.... as you know, there are more than a few interpretations on these verses with most throwing the final 3.5 years of the last week some 2000 years into the future. But this "futurist" interpretation was intentionally constructed in the 16th century by the Jesuits who were commissioned by the RCC to develop an alternative interpretation that removed the title of the little horn from the papacy. But we can talk about anything in Daniel that you would like...

Thanks for your response. I can certainly understand how you are interpreting these difficult verses within Daniel. And since just about 100% of all the commentaries that have been "accepted," whether the scholars, academics or theologians have adopted a futurist or preterist interpretation, they not only can not agree among themselves but they are both looking at Daniel either in a purely historical manner or in a partially historical manner (first 4 or 6 chapters), and then begin to throw so much of the remaining chapters some 2000 years in the future. Both are incorrect. And that certainly sounds terrible since it is clear THEY are the well respected scholars, academics. theologians and truly brillant individuals, most of which have dedicated their lives to the study and interpretation of God's Word... in this case of course, Daniel. Now, I AM NOT ONE THAT FITS OR BELONGS IN ANY ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIES. PERIOD!!!!! But when I started this project over 5 years ago, the very first thing I did was to try and read and understand what THOSE FOLKS have already done with Daniel. They literally went though the verses word by word discussing what Daniel may have meant by the certain Hebrew word or how it is to be applied - literally, figuratively, symbolically, etc. But what I quickly discovered, was that too many had different opinions and interpretations.... absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST OF THE DIFFICULT VERSES IN DANIEL. Somebody had to be very wrong here... and I had no idea who was right. I decided to use their interpretations (both sides) and try to determine the correct interpretati0n, regardless of what side of the fence it fell... and so many times, by driving down the middle of the road reading and studying their respective interpretations, I found they were both very wrong on so many of the prohetic verses in Daniel. And after going through the 12 chapters, a million times and then began to write down my thoughts, it became clear (only through the grace of God), that I learned the pattern that would be / could be found in Daniel that was NOT being honored or applied in both sides of the camps. Here are the 3 major concerns: 1) One camp, call them preterists, I call them historicists (does not have to agree with the general term used among scholars as "preterists," will attempt to match and confirm their interpretations using a histocial approach - how well can they match and confirm the actors and events to our history books. Thus, most of Daniel is thought to have been fulfilled even though they have ignored so many verses in Daniel because they cannot find a match within our history books. The other camp, will call them futurists, also will recognize the 4 physical kingdoms found in our history books, and rightfully so. but in the latter chapters of Daniel, they contend that most of Daniel speaks about future events - most, if not all are thrown some 2000 years after the cross. They can not be challenged because their wild interpretations have still not come about... but they are adamant they understand what will take place among todays nations and powers.... all made up! Sorry if I offend anyone but that is only what you have read and been told and to be candid, if you are not a preterist, then they are the only ones that have attempted to understand Daniel as it MIGHT take place in the still future... They are just reading, accepting these scholarly papers and interpretations... it does make sense ....but not correct. Consequently, these two approaches are flawed. 2) the next significant error is thinking and teating the verses in Daniel - in all the chapters, as though the next verse is speaking in a chronological manner. A perfect example of this is in chapter 8. The 4 generals come after Alexander, so what must follow are those actors and events like AE, or the Ptolemy's, the Seleucid's, or Cleopatra, etc., and all the battles for supremency that come after Alexander... This is all found within that "Historical" approach. But God is not interested in simply recounting our events in history. He will use only those 4 kingdoms that He has selected to reveal His plan of salvation and restoration for the Jews and as a result of the cross, the Gentiles. Daneil is NOT written in chronological order. There are two sections in almost every chapter: There is a "dream like sequence of verses" that identify the "big picture" or a summary of what will be revealed or discussed in that chapter. Then, there is a series of verses that can be labeled as "interpretation sequence of verses." In these verses, Daniel records the details of what will occur WITHIN AND BETWEEN the "dream sequence verses." Thus, the later verses in each chapter illuminate the actors and events within the "summary like" verses (dream sequence verses). The dream sequence verses may be matched to those found in our history books, but the interpretation sequence verses will not --- they are not new actors or events that come after those found in the dream sequence verses, and thus, they could not possible be found in again in our history books. 3) the third major error is that both camps will claim their approch - the preterist or the futurist view is correct... however, in addition to the two errors mentioned above, they both almost completely ignore that the Book of Daniel is a messianic prophetic book and the story is not one of the 4 kingdoms, the kings or their conflicts (whether during the earlier times before Christ or the yet to occur conflicts in the future), rather the storyline is all about the coming Messiah in the first century, His setting up His church, His fulfilling the 6 requirements given to HIm by His Father (9:24) and His overall plan to restore the Jews and His city after their return from Babylon and of course, mankind (both Jew and Gentile) back to the Garden to be with Him again. That is what Daniel is all about... it is not a history book.... so much of the verses in Daniel speak to this - to the Messiah, His church and those who will come after the cross who will war against Him, His Word and His people... that is specifically what Chapter 11 is ALL about. Verses 11:1-4 will put the two inner kingdoms in the rear view mirroer and 11:5 begins with pagan Rome. An example of the dream v. interpretation sequence verses can be found in Chapter 8 and speaks directly to your interpretation and the issue pretaining to how the verses in Daniel are not in chronological order. Verses 8:8-9 (are both dream sequence verses), 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. This is the big picture verse that tells us the one horned animal, who represents Alexander, will be broken and then will be replaced by his 4 generals - "towards the four winds of heaven." Thus, these 4 generals are not kingdoms mentioned in Chapter 4 by God, but are 4 "notable ones" (not horns) that are simply being thrown out into the chaos, turmoil and instability of the post Alexander period. They are mentioned because they represent the "hard close" of the 3rd kingdom. They are mentioned but have no God given mission within His plan of salvation. This mentioning tells us to now look for the coming of the 4th and final kingdom. There is no space / place / gap / etc., for any actor or event to be brought into His Word except to discuss the 4th kingdom. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). And this next verse, which EVERYONE treats as the "one" that came forth (little horn) will come directly out of one of the 4 generals (notable ones). But it is only because they are assuming a historical view and look to our history books to find the actors and events that are found in the next chapter of our history books. But that is not how we should look at this. God purposefully has provided the symbol of the "horn" or power that we should focus on... not the kingdoms... hence, the different use of animals. After the 3rd kingdom is gone (after the 4 generals are mentioned), we are to look for the 4th kingdom only. And that can and will be identified as the "little horn." There are no other "horns" after Alexander but the little horn. Not even pagan Rome in this chapter is discussed... It will be in the "latter part of their kingdom" when the little horn will come to power. In 7:11, pagan Rome is slain and its body is destoryed and within the later part of their kingdom (pagan Rome kingdom or the 4th kingdom) the little horn would "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. He would begin his reign over the "divided" kingdom of papal Rome. Now, all of this above is within the summary section or the dream sequence section of Chapter 8... This is what is going to happen in the big picture.... now we can move onto the interpretation sequence verses that you provided near the end of Chapter 8. Interpretation sequence verses that provide the details of the above verses, 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. Now, Gabriel is telling us the same 4 generals will stand up or be given the 4 territories of the partitioned Greek Empire. They do not come forth as a result of THEIR power, because it was God who called out only 4 kingdoms from the sea... these 4 did not come out of the sea but it was God who had given them their power after Alexander (but He did not symbolize them with a "horn"). 23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Here Daniel is referring to the "one who will come out of ONE OF THEM" and be exceeding great. This is the one mentioned in 8:9 who will come "out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down The interpretation sequence verss in 23 -25 refer directly back to 9-11. The "little horn" is once again being discussed in the interpretations sequence verses. He is the one that will go towards the south, the east and the Glorious or pleasant land (Israel... despite the differtent interpretations). HOWEVER, the "Glorious land" IS NOT REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL LAND OF ISRAEL. Because when the little horn (papacy) comes to full power sitting atop the 4th beast kingdom (papal Rome) it will be some 400 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, the walls, and streets, and everything in 70AD. This is not talking about the little horns attacking Israel but it is symbolically referring to heaven itself where the little horn claims divinity and equality with God and contends he is infallible, can forgive sin, changes God's laws, and so much more. All of this is found in Daniel - Chapters 8,9 11 and 12. Roy, as I had mentioned earlier, it is literally impossible to try and address each and every prophetic verse in Daniel where it has been previously interpreted in a purely historical or futurist manner or a combination of the two. Again, it took me 5 years to unpack this.... and only by the grace of God did He allow me to see the 3 primary reasons mentioned above that prevented His prophecies in Daniel to be revealed. It certainly had nothing to do with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Consequently, I had to reconcile today's accepted interpretations to either or both to the futurist or the preterist approach or sometimes both. It can not be done piecemeal like we are attempting..... Oh no. If you look at the 70 weeks of years prophecy, you will find there are two separate elements that must be restored as it was before the destruction by Babylon: 1) God woulde specifically carve out the time period and those elements that will be restored BEFORE the start of the 70th week. And He would give this assignment to His people. It was their responsiblity to restore all the physical elements back in Jerusalem - the city, the walls, the streets, the Temple and the Sanctuary. Also, it was their responsibility to restore all the feast days, the ceremonies, the Sabbatical cycles, etc. EVERYTHING MUST BE FULLY RESTORED BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70TH WEEK. And God will give Jesus the time (last week) to complete or fulfill His mission which not only included the 6 elements in 9:24, but He establishe His church and would symbolize the restoration of the last piece of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant that was the first piece of furniture taken away by Jeremiah. Everything was restored in the reverse order they were taken or destroyed. This means that both the Jews and Jesus were 100% successful in fulfilling their God given mission within the time periods they were carved out of the prophecy. There was nothing left to complete or to do by either party at the time of the cross. The only unfilled event that was not closed out was the 4th Great and final Sabbatial cyles that was to end 3.5 years after the cross. But because of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah, the counting of the Sabbatical cycle stopped at the time of the cross. Consequently, there are still 3.5 years for the Jews to return to their Messiah before it can be fulfilled. And this will be accomplished near the end of time when they will have their Damascus experience and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus for the final 3.5 years. Again, the 70 weeks of years prohecy is over... everything that was to take place during the 70 weeks took place - including the prophecy of the Messiah being cut off. But God purposefully and willingly accepted the cross exactly in the "midst of the week" to fulfill the prophecy and His salvation for mankind. Jesus did not cause the "gap"... this was always within His plan of salvation since the beginning of the world. He was simply telling Matthew what would happen.. When Jesus returned to His Father, His sacrifice was accepted and He cleansed the heavenly Sanctuary. He would be given dominon over everything, but He structured the timing of the cross in such a manner that there would be a 2000 year space between His first and second coming so the Gentiles might be grafted in.... I am sure. Again. did the Jews look for history books to confirm or try and understand the prophecies in Daniel or any other book? Of course not. Daniel is more than capable of interpreting Daniel without any help from our history books. If fact, by contending that Chapter 11 speaks to those historical figures that came after the time of Alexander and before pagan Rome proves the history books belong in the history section of the library and we need no other book but Daniel.... Our interpretations on Daniel (today's accepted interpretations) do not offer any level of proof or validation we should access our history books when interpreting the Word of God... it simply means we are inserting our history into His verses. I agree... but we have two issues: one is that most of the prophecies in Daniel have indeed been fulfilled. However, they have not been fulfilled in the manner that we find in "today's accepted interpretations." Secondly, most of Daniel does speak to the time up to around 500 AD - when the little horn comes to power. There is NO detail that Daniel gives us regarding the long period when the little horn takes power and His second coming... Certainly, He speaks to the things this little horn will do over the coming 1500 years and Chapter 12 does speak to the end times in very broad manner, but most of Daniel has been fulfilled. Just not in the way people contend.. Agree.. Babylon is behind us/ I agree... long gone. I agree.. also long gone. I again agree, however, they were not 4 horns, but 4 notable or conspicuous ones and they definitely symbolized the closing out of the 3rd kingdom. They did not have or should be referred to in any manner as 4 Empires... they were thrown out into the troubling times after Alexander... and, yes, two of the four generals do what generals do when the king dies.... they wanted supremency... but they have nothing to do with the 3rd or 4th kingdoms that God called out of the sea. They only belong in our history books. The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome.... It is confusing what you are writing here.. If you do not know if people's opinions are conjecture or not, how can you possibly tell who has the correct interpretation? I believe I may answer this for you, and if I am wrong, please correct me... the one you believe has the correct interpretation and are NOT using their imagination are the ones that are applying the "historical" approach. But it that is the case, then, assuming the futurist camp is greater in number than the pure historicists, there are at least / no less than 50 % of today's scholars, academics, theologians that have provided their "accepted interpretations" are using their imagination and conjecture. And also, for those important verses in Daniel that clearly do speak to the historical events before the time of Christ, how do you determine whose historical interpretations are correct? I can assue you we all agree of the 4 kingdoms but not what Daniel is trying to tell us within those 4 kingdoms.... I agree... but the Book of Daniel has always been "available" for anyone to interpret it the way God wrote it. But everyone attempts to interpret it as though it is a history book and must be confirmed and supported by what man writes in his history books... No they can't! The historical event may have indeed taken place and be recorded in our history books, but that does not mean the verses in Daniel are speaking about THOSE HISTORICAL EVENTS. Example: everyone will agree the 4 generals and the Ptolemy's and the Seleucids' came after Alexander. There were many years of finding among the different factions for power and supremency. Now, they occurred, they can be found in many, many history books .... BUT THEY DO NOT SPEAK TO THE EVENTS AND ACTORS IN CHAPTER 11 OF DANIEL - THAT IS, UNLESS YOU WANT THEM TO... Then definitely happened in our history, but they are not to be ascribed to the verses in Chapter 11. No. they are one and the same and AE has no place in Daniel..... The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome but in 7:11, Daniel tells us it will be slain and its body destroyed... Now, that certainly can be found in our history books. Between 400 and 500 AD, pagan Rome would soon be gone... No more! But it would be replace by the little horn who came out AMONG the 10 horns. Tell me, who are the 10 horns, when did they begin to come up out of pagan Rome. Are they the same as the 10 toes? What happened to them? If you want to continue to follow your history books, your should be able to identify them, because they have been there before Christ, after Christ and will continue until the end of time... meaning, they can not arrive onto the scene after the little horn takes power around 500 AD and will continue until the end until he is destroyed without human hands. The 10 horns or kings can not arise after 500 AD.... they are already in place. So, historically, we can see them in our history books but we fail to identify them.... that is all. Nope, I asked you this question earlier I believe. If you honor the historical approach, you should be able to identify them. But you can't because the historical approach doesn't work. So what does just about everyone contend --- well, we can not identify them in our history books, so they must not yet be on the earth .. they must come some 2000 years in the future - and there is no shortage of interpretations on who this 10 are.... everywhere from Turkey, the EU, the Islamic nations, and many, many other claims.... I agree, but once again, Walvoord is so like the many others of his time, those still living today and those that came before him after the reformation - he is looking at Daniel though the eyes of an historicist and when he can not find them in his history books, they must be in the future.... no, that is not right... The little horn has been labeled as such since he represents the "opposer" to everything about God's kingdom on earth. He indeed represents the papacy and his position and title and authority will continue for the next 1500 years.. Again, Daniel is largely symbolic and God is not going to list our all the popes during the 1500 years. Their attack on everything God will continue regardless of the name his parents gave him. No, they represented the 4 generals... they are found in Chapter 7 as the four heads in Chapter 7, they are the four notable onesi n Chapter 8:22 - but they were not symbolized as 4 horns..... Chapter 8 focuses on the "horns" or powers not the kingdoms or kings. Well, to be completely candid, I believe it is you who have placed a historical fence around Daniel. But when the actual historical events SHOULD BE FOUND WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you won't consider them and let them in. When the actual historical events are WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you allow for no interpretation but your own (and by your own I respecrfully mean those to "today's interpretations" within the preterist view). Roy, this is simply way to complicated to continue this piecemeal... I can assure you that God has put together a very consistent storyline in Daniel where the earlier chapters and verses support the latter chapters and verses and vice versa ..... they all speak as one continuous messianic prophecy that runs through the 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are not the story....It is all about the Messiah and His plan of salvation for mankind - both Jew and Gentile. Best wishes, Charlie

Roy, I am alittle sick --- I had completed most of my response to you but accidentily hit the wrong button and lost it all..... I will have to start again from scratch this evening.... darn it..... Charlie