Charlie744

Thanks David! Would you mind letting me know if this verse is the primary verse for your belief that we are with the Lord immediately upon death.... I am sure you have more... But there are many verses that speak of the “dead know nothing”, and they are “sleeping” not dead. As you know the Scriptures can not contradict itself so something has to give... Perhaps we (no, not me, but scholars, theologians, etc.), have found that by splitting the “components” of man they are able to accomplish both? That is, the body dies but His spirit and / or his soul continues on ... Just trying to understand different views that are not contradictory from Genesis to Revelation (not saying folks in this topic have a problem with keeping the integrity of their interpretations throughout the Scriptures).. The folks who have been responding within this topic are very knowledgeable and intelligent.... yet there still some differences... Thanks, Charlie

Thank you and I think I might understand....(maybe). Are you saying that the degree of damage, murder and every horrific experience or event in mankind’s history is the basis for an eternal punishING as opposed to an eternal death (no longer an existence)? Hope I understand this correctly. If that is the case then I would comment that this “basis” is a view at man’s level- we have a tendency to want the “death penalty” when our loved ones are harmed... we want the most severe kind of punishment. I would say that at the time of judgement, for those not in Christ, they will immediately be COMPLETELY aware and understanding of the Holiness of God, and then in the next millisecond they will also be aware they will never be with Him in eternity - I can not imagine anything worse! And I don’t believe God NEEDS to punish them for ever or for day a million years ... He knows there is nothing more severe than their not being with Him... it is just impossible ... I believe the 2nd death is just that- man would “surely die”. His physical body returns to the earth. That is his first death and at the judgement day he will be restored but will not be able to survive in the presence of the Lord- He is a consuming fire but only for those not in Christ. Anyway, I started to ramble on with my opinion and really wanted to ensure I understood your post. PS. I believe that what will happen at the end is to restore the beginning. We were able to be with the Lord in the Garden because we had be given a body and His Spirit. At the resurrection of those in Christ He will once again restore His Spirit within us and we will be with Him forever / again! Certainly look forward to your response / thoughts... this “soul” topic is so interesting and has at least a few different interpretations... I heard of the Law of First mention that is important in interpreting / understanding Scripture. So, Genesis then will tell us the components or make up of man... whatever is found in Genesis can never be contradicted anywhere in the Scriptures. If Genesis has two components to make a “living soul”, then all subsequent verses have to be interpreted the same... and we will/may have to reread or reinterpret those subsequent verses that seemingly speak of 3 parts (if that is what Genesis says).

David, the way I interpret “absent from the body” is to make sure we include the word “rather”... I understand Paul to speak not that we are with our Lord after the moment of death, but he is saying that he would RATHER be with the Lord than in the body. Paul could not imagine anything on this earth that could compare to being with the Lord and as you are aware, Paul was willing to endure any pain or sacrifice for the Lord. I look like to your comments, thanks, Charlie

Hello again Frits, I trust you and your family had a nice holiday. Would you mind telling me why you have such a strong feeling about the concept of what I will call the “2nd death” v eternal punishment? Thanks and look forward to your thoughts! Charlie

Thanks for bringing this forward... I will begin my work using NAS and then hope to receive your thoughts... Charlie

Please ignore..... I will return to the NAS.... This came from one of the translations I acquired by a James Scott Trimm.

Thanks Josheb... I am not sure! But in the earlier post I referenced Gen. 1:30 that speaks about Adam’s dominion over ..... WHEREIN THERE IS A LIVING SOUL. So it does not state animals have a living soul but “for those that...” Thanks for responding, Charlie

Frits, happy to hear y0u got a good nights sleep......... You are looking for Scripture to support if the soul sleeps or the soul no longer be after death. Before one c0uld answer this and provide the appropriate Scripture, do we not have to agree on the definition of a soul? I sent a post earlier attempting to solicit opinions on the first mention of the soul in Genesis. For me, all the information in the past 30 pages has not changed my thoughts on this and so I wanted to go back to square 1 and attempt to see what others see from Genesis. Can you please identify for me where in the creation of man do we find the 3 separate parts of man? Thanks so much, Charlie

Josheb, has indeed brought to our attention there are some 30 pages of posts... so far! There are so many interesting and enjoyable thoughts posted— the quality of these posts are just incredible.... Everyone, to one degree or another are able to bring the most powerful PC anyone could buy. These PC’s have ALL the latest software money could buy- it is amazing to watch! Unfortunately, I have been only able to bring my latest and best Etch-a-Sketch... which I understand needs to be upgraded! However, despite all the knowledge and talent commenting on this subject, we still are not in agreement. I went back to the first two chapters of Genesis. Whenever there is a difference or conflicting views it is my practice to try and go back to the beginning of things... I would like to ask for your thoughts and if there are is any relevance here: 1) It seems within these two chapters God blesses both man and the creatures, 2) Of course He created both man and all living things, 3) So far, There doesn’t seem to be a separation of the two, 4) God does refer the fowl, beasts and creeping things as either “things, or creatures”, 5) He never refers to man as either of those two, 6) But in 1:30, He has given you (Adam) ....dominion over.... WHEREIN THERE IS A LIVING SOUL, 7) But in 2:7, God forms man of the dust.... and man BECAME A LIVING SOUL. IF the differences between man and all the other creations of God are in items 6) and 7) above (ASSUMPTION), then what might it tell us, if anything about a soul found IN the creatures v. man BECOMING a living soul? 8) Also, God BREATHED life into man and not the animals. Thanks, Charlie

Sorry, you can’t delete a post.. they are eternal. They will be with us forever- some to everlasting enjoyment, some to everlasting destruction! Charlie

Well thank you very much for the compliment Frits... I am at least partially right! Charlie

Thank you Frits. I certainly hope I will be joining you! God bless, Charlie

Frits, I believe almost all contend, or apply this to mean that immediately after death one is with the Lord (assuming he is saved). Is tea that also your view? And secondly, how can the Soul AND the Spirit exist when the Soul is a product of the earth and His Spirit breathed into that earth? I believe Paul is saying he would RATHER be with God than on the earth — we ALL would want that.... but I don’t think anyone wants to die- most are fearful of this event. Charlie

Frits, I certainly agree with you that there is One, Jesus Christ who is able to save each of us... no religion or no mountain of kind and caring works will do. Further, I believe everyone will agree with your two references in Matthew which clearly speaks of the loses to be felt by the Jews, as well as your two references in John confirming that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. I certainly may be wrong here and perhaps reading into your response above something that is not there, but it comes across to me there is a fair amount of discomfort you may have with the Jewish people. If that statement is inappropriate, I apologize, but at the very least it seems you may feel they have done their part in history, they failed miserably, they deserve whatever punishment from God for their refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah, and they have almost no purpose in the salvation of man. As you are well aware there are also more than a few relevant verses that speak to this with one of the most known is found in Genesis 12:3 ,“I will bless those who bless you ....”. I think you will agree the Master has never revoked this statement! Personally, I have the believe that so many folks still have an anger, dislike or hatred for the Jewish people. Unfortunately, the world has always been able and willing to generate and act on a long and ugly laundry list of issues aimed at them. Until the very end of time they will have a yellow Star of David sewn to their chest, a number tattooed on their arm and a permanent bullseye on their back....BUT Genesis 12:3 will always be in God’s heart and mind. I can not begin to imagine what they have been subjected to over their history. Here is a group of people who were handpicked by God Himself. Their mission was to go against every known religion or practice (multiple gods, sacrificing their own children to their gods by placing them on burning alters, sodomy, all types of sinful behaviors. They were asked to obey and worship an invisible and single entity as their God. This new religion called for treating others as they would want to be treated, and man was made in the image of God- all man are equal and a gazillon new practices and beliefs never heard or seen prior to their time They were told they must obey His Commandments and follow the Words written in the Scriptures...Trust in this One and Only invisible God who is seemingly so demanding, strict and perhaps unforgiving at times. These people had to, in a very real way, wrestle with God (Jacob) on a daily basis. They would receive a grade, if you will, each day - from their God, the Creator of all things. Who could possibly live up to His requirements? Who would even agree to be subjected to this way of life? How can anyone meet or honor His Commandments even for one day? They were given a truly impossible assignment! There is no way they could possibly succeed or even come close to succeeding. And as we all know, they did in fact fail over and over and over in spectacular fashion! However, can anyone possibly make a case for any other people who would have failed less? (Sorry for putting it this way... ). It is utterly incomprehensible that any other group of people could have succeeded in a struggle with God - their failures would easily have eclipsed the Jews- however, I don’t believe any other people would have been willing to last or stay on day with the Lord. Again, this was a no win situation for them yet they continued with their mission. And no group of people on earth has had to pay the price for accepting this mission- a tremendous price at the hand of God and from all other peoples of the world. They have been demonized, killed / murdered, ridiculed, ostracized, isolated, victimized and so much more each and every century of their existence - and it all because they accepted to try and obey and worship the One True God. Again, they have failed miserably!!!!! But thank God they were willing to pay the price that I am sure I would not want to pay! In a way they are a type and shadow of the Messiah...the Jews have and will continue to pay a price for introducing and honoring the One True God to the World, and of course, Jesus would pay the price for all our sins! We are receiving all the benefits for our salvation because of the price the Jews paid, and still are, for revealing to us the One True God. And to add insult to injury, they were simply unable to recognize this One True God as their Messiah when He came to earth...How could they not recognize Him? After all, the Scriptures did for tell of His coming in much detail! Why that was / is just unacceptable and they must pay for this as well! No salvation for you- one eternity! (Taken from the Seinfeld series with the “soup nazi”). Now back to your comment- no, we do not need the Jews or Judaism or another Temple to be saved- we only need Jesus, but do you think God will ever forget what they have gone through and who played such a spectacular part in His Plan of Salvation? I don’t think so...there will always be a most special place in His Heart for His people. Even at the end of time they will still be a big part in His Plan—we should look at them for timing...and unfortunately, I believe they still will have to pay even more before all is done! But in the end, they too, like Jesus will return! They will no longer be a shadow but a light! I hope there is nothing here that offends you and also that I am not attempting to preach to you or anyone... I wanted to simply respond to your latest post, thanks, Charlie

Thank you for your thoughts! As you know, God can do ANYTHING and He has no limits..... and if He wanted to give to us something prophetic, He certainly can and would, but maybe He is more interested in us individually? Sort of reminds me when we are given a thick textbook in school... asked to read each chapter and then the professor will provide his teaching... but we will never see or understand that Text like him. But I remember going to meet with my professor after class and attempt to understand a specific and still difficult concept or part of the chapter- others may have understood this easily. But he would always appreciate these visits and was always willing to listen and listen and listen - then he would speak and address the concept. This is a long and cumbersome way of communicating this but it was the one on one, the face to face consideration that was so valuable. In my particular experience God came to me! Totally necessary, completely unexpected, and revealed at least 3 simply unexplainable attributes: His Mercy, His Power and His Love - But they were absolutely tailored for me! They were not something I could offer mankind or begin to share - it was too impossible to wrap my own mind around, SO, this must have been just personal. Perhaps on this side of the Cross He is more interested and willing to come by our desk or schedule a face to face with each and every one of us. The Text has already been written- nothing more to say but still so much more to learn and understand. I believe, on this side of the Cross He wants us to raise our hand in the classroom, seek Him out after class or He WILL come to us individually when He knows it is necessary.... It is now so personal to Him, and He is willing to reveal parts of Him that can not be explained so it can stay between the two... Just some more rambling since it is impossible to explain or forget. I have (for me) been able to answer s very important and difficult concept within the Scriptures. How could it be possible that Israel LITERALLY seen and experienced ALL the unbelievable powers and miracles performed right in front of them (this certainly included everything from the Red Sea and manna, and water for millions over 40 years to Joshua, David, Daniel, and of course to Jesus Himself with the healing of cripples, the sightless, raising the dead). How could they possibly not see their God and obey and worship ALL they seen and experienced? Well, I know!!!! Despite my experience ANYONE would have or should have turned their life over to God and become one of His most perfect followers and servants.... right? Not me! I just continued on my merry way walking down the wrong path! No, my Damascus experience did not mirror Paul’s— to this very day, AND every day, I am frightened and horrified by my failure to see, obey and worship Him after this experience. The only thing I can come up for the failure of Israel to be changed by all the miracles and power is that God is just too big! That may not seem appropriate or be satisfactory, but in my own experience this was just too much to take in! Fortunately for me, I remember that experience each day and realize IT WAS DEFINITELY GIVEN JUST FOR ME! And I reacted and responded like so many Israelites back then... Even being with Jesus each day for 3.5 years and ALL His miracles, they still could not see God... He is simply TOO BIG that we should comprehend Him! Charlie

It is so comforting to hear these very special happenings with the Lord... I believe He may have made them so unexplainable so it can be just be between the two of you / us. When these events happen, whether in a dream or while one is fully awake (and neither event is inferior or superior to the other), I believe He is establishing a place or a place in time or a place in our mind that is truly Holy. These too infrequent events are no different than when He met with Moses at the burning bush scene - Where He was became a Holy ground or place. Moses certainly remembered this event but in no way could he adequately explain what it was like. I have also had an “experience” with the Lord some 40 years ago! I can remember everything that occurred- it was the most intense and longest 1 or 2 seconds of my life. There was more conveyed, felt and made known in that short period of time one could not comprehend... but there is no possible way I could explain it! This was just between the two of us and He wanted to keep it that way. Even today, almost every day, I can not understand why He would have taken all that time and effort on me. I think it was to show me that He considered me! Can you imagine the Creator of all things, our God interested in meeting with me? The information or things He showed me or the unbelievable feeling He bestowed on me was incomprehensible, and clearly not explainable- but it was not meant to be... I think it is like your experience with Him and the experience rhomphaeam has had years ago... for whatever reason, God decided to reveal Himself to each in His Own way and where He is telling us in a manner similar to when He healed a blind man and told him not to tell anyone, “this is between the two of us... I am your God and you are mine - this is OUR little secret”. It is so personal!!!!!! Thanks for sharing and since I have been on this site I have witnessed two such happenings besides my own, yours and rhomphaeam’s. They give me the opportunity to relive much of that special event years ago! Charlie

Speks, always nice to see your thoughts and responses! You say that Spirit plus the body brings the soul into existence... that makes total sense to me, but how can that not be A+B = C? If you take either away you no longer have C... agree? C has no “life or being” unless the two are kept together... ??? I am having trouble understanding this ... C is definitely proof of the evidence of life but it ceases to “be” (no longer having evidence of life) should one of the two parts are missing or removed- no more soul! Maybe this is the issue... I don’t think it PRODUCES a soul, rather it BECOMES a soul. Throughout the Scriptures (hopefully this is true in ALL books), God takes two parts and makes or creates ONE. Adam and Eve joined together to make ONE. Take either away and THEY are no more. Again I think I see where you might be treating the soul as a third part or component of man... I see you saying that if we take away A or B then there can be no C... so C is not a “part or component” of this joining together.. It IS the joining together. Yes, without the Spirit of God we would cease to “be”. Our soul would no longer exist. Sorry for repeating myself... I believe we lost our Spirit when we disobeyed God. We continued with body and breath but not His Spirit- that was lost and we had to be removed from Eden. From then on we have got to find our way back into Eden... but this can not be accomplished without the restoration of The Holy Spirit— this is where God’s Plan of Salvation comes in- we must accept The Holy Spirit back into our lives; there is no other way! So without The Holy Spirit we will be separated from God forever- at His second coming we will be divided —- those that have rejected His Holy Spirit will be seen by God as body and breathe only. Those in Christ will be seen as a Living Soul- where His Holy Spirit has been restored. His Word will certainly divide the soul from His Spirit. Hope some of this makes sense... For me, I think it can keep its integrity through the Scriptures.. The make up or components of this Living Soul as made by God in His image has been corrupted by us- we lost His Holy Spirit breathed into our existence.. our fate will be decided on whether we accepted His Holy Spirit and became as we once were- the way He created us. Charlie

Thanks Retrobyter... enjoyed your thoughts!! I have never thought of Heaven as having “time”. I think of Heaven as not having ANY constraints on it, or against it. This would include any physical or non-physical (time / space) creation (everything on this side of Heaven is a creation and never was). Certainly we can not understand an existence without His creations. We are not meant to have this understanding. A few comments in the Scriptures cause me to think about these things: 1) God starts by telling us, “In the beginning...”. He is telling us right away there was “no thing” - nothing physical, no space and no time. 2) I think of time similar to a physical thing... not just a component in our ability to measure... but a “thing” itself ....... God specifically created a 7th Day - a “thing” (sorry for using “thing” in trying to explain this). It is beyond our ability to understand time as other than a measuring tool... but I think of it as a creation by God. 3) God mentioned that “He knew us began the foundation of the world”. For me this means we existed in His Mind before anything outside of Heaven (Him) ever was created (including time). Of course we will not be able to comprehend any of this until we are on the other side but it is a terrific subject to think about and discuss.. Look forward to your thoughts! Charlie

Just thinking out loud... but man and all the creatures were completed by the 6th day... could the 7th day, where man spends time with God (only Holy Day) be symbolic of “The Garden”? This would be “The HolyPlace” where God and man spend their Holy time together? Also, might this Holy Place (Garden or center of Eden) be “The Place” where there were or are no other creatures present? Further, is it possible that Satan or this serpent had no right to ever be present in this “Garden” (opposed to Eden)? Did Satan disobey God be entering the “Garden” and that Eve had not realized he was not supposed to be in there (causing confusion and perhaps no reason to think this serpent was indeed evil)? Was this serpent Lucifer (before he corrupted Eve, or did he become Satan after he corrupted her)? Was this “Garden” the Sanctuary where only God and man were to spend time together- Holy Ground, and Satan was NOT a party to this Holy Place and had to get sin entered into this Holy Place somehow (through Adam or Eve) and thus create a situation where “this place” OR “these people / created in His Image” would corrupt it ... Satan knew God could not be present in an unholy place or with unholy creatures... Did Satan disobey God and enter “The Garden (not mentioned in Genesis BUT I believe we might be able to look to the Holy Sanctuary/Temple to see just who and when ANYONE can enter the Holy of Holies), to destroy this “special” relationship with God (certainly more superior than with Lucifer which he was jealous and could not accept) and now he (Satan) would have access to man to continue to corrupt his relationship with God (outside of the “Garden”)? Just some quick thoughts... look forward to your responses and opinions, Charlie

Thank you !!!! That was certainly a terrific response and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it... I think I will read it another 10 times or so before the end of this evening. Since I came onboard this forum I have indeed learned so much from so many talented and knowledgeable folks. It is so apparent that many have spent so much of their lives studying and improving their relationship with God.... something that has been so foreign to me. This forum has given me the opportunity to communicate with many different individuals from different parts of the globe and where they clearly would be considered an intellectual, an academic, a theologian, etc. - I was so surprised at the level of talent here... and I get to see into their mind and see some of their relationship with God. It is quite remarkable to witness the thinking process of many of the highly successful and educated folks within this forum... It took me so many years before I realized that God must be my priority and now I get to sit in the same classroom as all of these very knowledgeable folks who have been at this for years! God is Good! And once again, thank you for your comments and don’t keep them for yourself... keep sharing please! Charlie

Thank you very much for your prompt and well received response. This will certainly remove any further thoughts that my response may have been offensive (especially Alive since I happened to use his post to respond to). Anyway, thank you again and God Bless always, Charlie

I hope ALL of you folks do not mind but this has been bothering me since romphaeam responded (anove) to my attempt to make a joke using a post from Alive.... I just want to make it crystal clear that I was ONLY attempting to make lite of a part of our discussions about “the Soul....” and how it moved to a couple of brief comments on whether Lazarus had or had not decayed during the 4 days in the ground. If my response was not clear that I was making (attempting) to make a joke out of this, AND / OR it offended ANYONE, please accept my sincere apology!!! It was the farthest thing from my mind.. Thanks, Charlie

Sorry Dennis.. I was attempting to make a joke that the next time God creates man that He writes the 3 components of man on the side of him .. (like on the side of a box of cereal..

The next God does something like this again I think He should place the ingredients on the back or side of us! I mean, we figured that out... Charlie

Thanks Josheb... but I am sure you realize you are going to have to assist me here.... Please elaborate on the inconsistencies... I am certain I am not way of them but that is why I am here .. Charlie