DearOldDad

You are truly inspired when you turn to the New Testament to verify Old Testament events. Look at what Jesus said in John 16:32 - "Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me [1](monon)alone: and yet [2](ouk eimi monos)I am not alone) because the Father is with me. [1]monon = accusative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos = (1) adjective; only, alone; [2](ouk eimi monos) = "I am NOT Alone" monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos = only, alone; Jesus knew the Old Testament Scriptures and their teachings better than any other Man alive, and He applied the teaching this verse to himself knowing full well, the significance thereof. Isaiah 37:15 And Hezekiah prayed unto [3](Jehovah)the LORD), saying, 16 O [3](Jehovah)LORD) of hosts, [4](Elohiym)God) of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the [4(Elohiym)God), even thou [2](monos)alone), of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. [That means Jesus is NOT Elohiym God, nor is he Jehovah.] Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O [3](Jehovah)LORD) our [4](Elohiym)God), save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), even thou [2](MONOS)only). [2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone [3]3068 hw"hoy> Yehovah {yeh-ho-vaw'} Meaning: Jehovah = "the existing One" 1) the proper name of the one true God Usage: AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519 [4]0430 ~yhil{a/ 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} Meaning: 1) (plural intensive; singular meaning)(like "sheep" = plural form singular meaning the (true) God [Mat 18:12-13][Luke 15:4-7] According to John 16:32, if Jehovah God, the Father, is (MONOS), Jesus is NOT with him Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou MONOS (only). Let us examine further, to identify this Jehovah who is MONOS in creating; Isa 63:16 Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O[3](JEHOVAH)LORD), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. Let us see if there is more than one reference that teaches Jehovah, God, the Father of Israel - (ALONE)MONOS) created anything; Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am (JEHOVAH)the LORD) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS(alone); that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Ezek 17:13 And ye shall know that I am (Jehovah)The LORD), when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I (Jehovah)the LORD) have spoken it, and performed it, saith (Jehovah)the LORD). In the New Testament there is a verse quoted continually that says God created everything through Jesus Christ (Eph 3:9); the problem with that is, "Through Jesus Christ" is not provided in the GREEK. It was added to aid the reader in understanding what God meant to say.

"Sheep" is a plural word exactly like Elohiym, and a shepherd had 100 sheep, and left the 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep. Elohiym is a category, not a name - Meaning something like "IMMORTAL." God is Elohiym; Judges are Elohiym: All those unto whom the word of God has come are Elohiym. Psalm 82:6 "I have said, Ye are (Elohiym) gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Jesus quoted this passage as authority in John 10:34, to justify His statement "I said I am the Son of God." Later, after playing word games with Jesus, the Jews testified at his Roman trial, "He made himself the son of God."John 19:7 - Thus showing that they knew what his words meant all along. When God spoke to Wisdom, He recognized her as Elohiym, when He said "Let US make man in our image." He was speaking of Himself and the Elohiym Wisdom, who had been born to God prior to the creation. (See the eighth Proverb verses 22 thru 31).

That is n0t the problem nearly as much as how the Trinity doctrine was invented. The developers of the doctrine began with inventing a word NOT found in scripture- "omo-ousion" which means same substance, then used THAT word to develop the controversy that has endangered the world for almost two thousand years; "omo-ousian," a term not found in scripture, yet was invented and used to "EXPLAIN" what the scriptures failed to discuss. Three of the earliest doctrines promoting such error come in the form of argument about "omo-ousian" a Greek word from which is derived three doctrines; 1st; "same substance" which say Jesus is the same substance as the father; 2nd; co-equality, which states Jesus is equal with the Father; and 3rd; co-essentiallity, which states that the trinity share in all the essentiallities. All are from the same Greek word made up by theologians. When the Emperor Constantine invited over 1500 bishops from around the Christian world to attend a council at Nicea in 325, most of the bishops stayed away because they knew what was about to take place, and wanted no part of it. Millions of people have become victims to a mis-spelling in a misunderstanding over a religious controversy, in the Byzantium Empire of the Greco-Roman world. Arius insisted that the nature of Christ is described best by the Greek word "homoisian," meaning that the creator, the Redeemer, and the Paraklete-Comforter are of a "Like" nature. The "Orthodox" position was that they are "homo-ousian," of the "Same" nature. Millions of people have died for the difference, and the Eastern church slipped into obscurity, when compared with the Western. Islam was able to insert itself, and establish itself as an equal in the East. It first appeared historically, in the council of Nicea in 325 a.d. and was still being debated in 451, at the council of Chalcedon, at which time it was given "ecumenical recognition" as the "creed of 150 fathers" and accepted as orthodox, together with the old Nicene Creed, as "the creed of 318 fathers." And the battle was joined. It has not diminished over time. In the old testament omou is the closest we can come to omo-ousian, and it is found in Job 34:29, and does not even come close to the meaning of omo-ousian. Job 34:29 "When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man [only]":[omou] genitive masculine singular adjective] to be of one mind. In the new testament we find: John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice [together].[omou = adverb John 20:4 So they ran both [omou = together]: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.[omou / adverb] John 21:2 There were [omou / together] Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.[omou / adverb] Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with [one accord] in one place.[omou ab][adverb]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; You are speaking of the crucifixion. I am speaking of "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;" The original point I attempted to make, but got sidetracked by my ignorance of negotiating the board, was "Ye shall judge angels." The point of the judgement after salvation, is to demonstrate for angels who sinned (Gen 6:1-6) and respond to punishment with "I could not help myself" - Jesus will correct their error by pointing out "If MAN in flesh could refrain, SO COULD YOU WHO WERE IN SPIRIT." Thus judge we the angels, i.,e., thus were we the standard by which angels shall be judged.

Are you familiar with "Ye shall judge angels"--- 2 Cor 5:4-11 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

What is in "Who has seen God?" that is NOT a question? Did I not have a "Question" as the title? I am trying to learn how to navigate the board, and sometimes I resort to simply logging on and try whatever works. Otherwise, I have no problem with it.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is (para Tou Theou) of God, he hath seen the Father. SAID OF JESUS 2 Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. SAID OF ENOCH Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him]: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. SAID OF US Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: WHAT DOES IT SIGNIFY TO ONE WHO "IS of GOD?" ek tou Theou John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is (para Tou Theou) of God, he hath seen the Father. John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came [ek tou Theou](from God); neither came I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:47 He that is (ek tou Theou) of God heareth God's words.... 1 John 4:4 Ye are ek tou Theou (of God),little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:6 We are ek tou Theou (of God): he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born (ek tou Theou (of God) sinneth not; but he that is begotten ek tou Theou (of God) keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is ek tou Theou (of God): but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him The result is, the Saints are "ek tou Theou" and have been translated into the kingdom of HIS dear son. This is so profound it almost boggles the mind.

That assumes lack of "Repentance" after having been saved. If one is baptized into Christ, put on Christ, and later falls to temptation, and fails to repent, He is subject to the judgment.

I raised this question over on the ask a question site, and got this as a response - Any Comments? No results found for Who has "seen God?" site:worthynews.com,worthychristianforums.com,worthydevotions.com,worthychristianlibrary.com,prophecy.watch,worthyministries.com.christianpersecution,info,worthy.bible. Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords.

I know of three things that are impossible for God to do. 1) God cannot stop being God. 2)God cannot lie. 3)God cannot break His word. Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

How do you explain the triune God to a Muslim? they think that Christian are worshiping 3 gods. here is definition : One being - within the One being are 3 persons[/quote] In Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 God introduced himself to Moses using singular pronoun, singular verb, singular definite article and singular verb participle. "egw eimi 'o wn" = "I AM THE BEING." "egw" = first-person-singular pronoun = "I" "eimi" = first-person-singular present active verb = "am" "'o" = singular definite article = "the" "wn" = Singular participle = "Being"[/b] "Egw" leaves no room for 'We." "Egw" allows no room for "US." "Egw" is a reference to a first-person-singular "I." "Eimi" leaves no room for "Are," but is a reference to "AM." "Ho" leaves no room for "some" but is a reference to "The" one and only. It is a singular definite article. "Wn" leaves no room for beings, it is a reference to "The Being." It is singular as to number of persons considered. Neither is "singular" & "plural" as applied to grammatical articulation of words. Singular does not include 2 and 3; singular will always reference "1." Plural does not exclude more than 1; Plural will always include more than 1." "God is Love" If in fact "God is love," and God is perfect and flawless, there would only be "perfect" love in the entirety of God. And God could NOT ever have created imperfection, because He would have no need to love, protect, fight for, or teach imperfect beings. But, since God created imperfect beings, gave them free will, and taught them about the consequence of disobedience, which in their ignorance and lack of experience, had the possibility of stirring innocent consciences to examine one moment of disobedience, to gain experience and knowledge, to "become as GODS, knowing good and evil. Because God is live, and because there are not three "persons" in one God, it became necessary for the love-God to practice on His creation, all those natural instincts of caring, teaching, protecting, admonishing, punishing, and all that goes into raising up a child in the way he should go. And we know God is God by nature; i.,e., it is His NATURE to be God. Consider - "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods."(Gal 4:8) If God is not "God by nature" - what then is the source of his displeasure with those who are not "Gods by nature?" Otherwise you need to explain the "unnatural God" whom we worship. Another issue is raised which says "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."1 Cor 14:32 Since we are made in the image of God, it necessary follows that God's spirit is subject to, (NOT EQUAL AND SEPARATE TO) The Father. And when we look to the scriptures, we find much evidence that this is so. JOEL 2:28-32] "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out MY SPIRIT upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out MY SPIRIT. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." ACTS 2:16-21 " But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 50 A.D. I THES 4:8 "He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us HIS Holy Spirit." 56 A.D. ROM 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you. 85 A.D. I JOHN 4:13 "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because HE hath given us of HIS Spirit." Gens 6:3 And Jehovah [the LORD] said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith Jehovah [the LORD]; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith Jehovah [the LORD], from henceforth and for ever. Isaiah 61:1 THE SPIRIT of Adonay Jehovih [the Lord GOD] is upon me; because Jehovah [the LORD] hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Micah 2:7 O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of Jehovah [the LORD] straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I will bow to Jesus' own words on the matter--- God is Spirit.(John 4:24) Spirit hath not flesh and bone(Luke 4:39-40) I am flesh and bone(Luke 24:39) True worshippers worship the Father.(John 4:23)

John 16:32 [1](monon)alone) [1]monon = accusative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos (1) adj. only, alone;. [2](ouk monos)I am not alone) [2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone Isaiah 37:15 [2](monos)alone) [3](Jehovah)the LORD) [4](Elohiym)God) [4](Elohiym)God) Isaiah 37:20 [2](MONOS)only) [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD) [3](Jehovah)LORD) [4](Elohiym)God) [2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone [3]3068 hw"hoy> Yehovah {yeh-ho-vaw'} Meaning: Jehovah = "the existing One" 1) the proper name of the one true God [4]0430 ~yhil{a/ 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} Meaning: 1) (plural intensive; singular meaning)(like "sheep" = plural form singular meaning the (true) God [Mat 18:12-13][Luke 15:4-7] Ezek 17:13 And ye shall know that I am (Jehovah)The LORD), when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I (Jehovah)the LORD) have spoken it, and performed it, saith (Jehovah)the LORD). ============================================================= John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me [1](monon)alone): and yet [2](ouk eimi monos)I am not alone), because the Father is with me. [1]monon = accusative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos (1) adj. only, alone;. [2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone Isaiah 37:15 And Hezekiah prayed unto [3](Jehovah)the LORD), saying, 16 O [3](Jehovah)LORD) of hosts, [4](Elohiym)God) of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the [4(Elohiym)God), even thou [2](monos)alone), of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O [3](Jehovah)LORD) our [4](Elohiym)God), save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), even thou [2](MONOS)only). [2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone [3]3068 hw"hoy> Yehovah {yeh-ho-vaw'} Meaning: Jehovah = "the existing One" 1) the proper name of the one true God Usage: AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519 [4]0430 ~yhil{a/ 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} Meaning: 1) (plural intensive; singular meaning)(like "sheep" = plural form singular meaning the (true) God [Mat 18:12-13][Luke 15:4-7] According to John 16:32, if Jehovah God, the Father, is (MONOS), Jesus is NOT with him Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou MONOS (only). Let us examine further, to identify this Jehovah who is MONOS in creating; Isa 63:16 Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O[3](JEHOVAH)LORD), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. Let us see if there is more than one reference that teaches Jehovah, God, the Father of Israel - (ALONE)MONOS) created anything; Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am (JEHOVAH)the LORD) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS(alone); that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Ezek 17:13 And ye shall know that I am (Jehovah)The LORD), when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I (Jehovah)the LORD) have spoken it, and performed it, saith (Jehovah)the LORD).

In 1996 A Church in California published online, THE FOLLOWING POSITION: "Many people have been taught that the Bible condemns homosexuality. We believe that this is not the truth. We believe that gay and lesbian people are completely loved and accepted by God. How can there be such a difference between parts of the Christian Church over this issue? Largely because unproven ideas have been taught for centuries about some Scripture passages. In recent times, scholars have finally begun to study these passages in depth, with the support of historical and archaeological information about biblical times." MY RESPONSE: When Kings walk among men, red carpets are placed beneath their feet so they may stand undefiled among their subjects. But what do you do when your God walks among you? [Lev 26:12] God was not just Israel's king, he was their Deity. How do you set him above the common man; God who walks continually in the camp? You defile not the camp. You continually clean to a superlative standard; and inspect for exceptions and discrepancies. God gave laws and ordinances whose very reason for being was to keep the camp clean, and undefiled, and fit for His presence; and it was a superlative standard. [Deu 4:8] When God pronounced certain things unclean, it had nothing to do with men's appreciation of whether they were clean or not, but rather God's standard was the issue. There is nothing unclean about a beetle, but God declared creeping things as unclean, and forbade the Isrealites to handle them. If a man and his wife made love of an evening, they were unclean, because God was in the camp; not because there is anything unclean about sexual expression between married partners. It is carnal, and therefore was pronounced as unclean. "The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even." [Lev 15:18] Even a man whose seed issued from him without copulation, was considered unclean, because God was in the camp. It had nothing to do with any "uncleaness" inherent with being a man. "This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him, and is defiled therewith;..." [Lev 15:32] If a man ate any animal that died of itself, or any animal which was killed by beasts, he was unclean, not because the dead animal was polluted, but because God was in the camp. "And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean." [Lev 17:15] If a man was hanged his body could not remain all night on the tree, because God declared the land cursed by it; And God walked in the camp. "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." [Deu 21:23] And if a man divorced his wife, and she remarry, he could not take her again to marry, after her husband dies, or divorces her. "When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife." "3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. " [Deu 24:1-4] God made provision for every detail of cleanliness in the camp of Israel. Provision was even made for occasional uncleanness not foreseen, for example: "If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp: 11 But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water: and when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again." [Deu 23:10-11] Even the "camp latrene" was provided for: 12 "Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: 13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:" [Deu 23:12-13] The reason was, God walked in the camp, and would not tolerate uncleanness: "For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee." [Deu 23:14] So whether a thing was considered an abomination, or unclean, or pollution had nothing to do with the thing itself, it was forbidden because it was not fit for the presence of God in the camp. Some things were unclean morally, but God did not make allowances for the flesh. He demanded the highest standard of behaviour because of his presence in the camp. But some moral behaviours were called "pollution" so that the land was "defiled" by the inhabitants who practiced such things; because God walked in the earth, and such was not allowed. But it was practiced anyway among some of the nations, So God cast them out of their lands, to cleanse the land of these "pollutions." If God demanded that the camp be clean, in which he placed his foot, how much more do you suppose he expects His saints to be clean; We who are the temple of God, and in whom He dwells today? Now to consider some basic language of scripture, Several Hebrew words should be considered in the discussion: Strong's number Heb 120. Ad-dawm; Ruddy; a human being; mankind. Strong's number Heb 376. eesh; a man; a male person Strong's number Heb 802. ish-shaw'; fem. of Heb 376 a woman, female. Strong's number Heb 2145. zaw-kawr'; a male person, man kind Strong's number 2930 taw-may; To be foul, ceremonially or morally; contaminated, polluted, unclean. Strong's number Heb 5347. nek-ay-baw'; female person EESH AND EESHAW: In Exo 15:3, God calls himself an EESH [376]. In Dan 9:29 God also speaks of Gabriel as being an EESH. Gen 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens the male (EESH)(376) and his female (EESH-SHAW)(802). ZAW-KAWR [2145] AND NEK-AY-BAW [5347] Gen 1:27 So God created man [120] in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male [zawkawr] [2145] and female [nek-ay-baw][5347] created he them. Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man [120], made he a woman [802], and brought her unto the man [120]. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman [802], because she was taken out of Man [376]. 24 Therefore shall a man [376] leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife [802]: and they shall be one flesh. The PRONOUNCEMENT BY GOD HIMSELF: Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind (male) [2145], as with womankind (female) [802]: it is abomination. Lev 20:13 If a man [376] also lie with mankind (male) [2145], as he lieth with a woman (female) [802], both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Rom 1:26-27...for even their women did change the "natural use" into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the "natural use" of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly... Scripture plainly states that a male is not to lie with a male as with a female. To rephrase, a man is not to use a man as he would a woman. There is a natural use, between a man and woman [Rom 1:26-27], and men do NOT replace women in that "natural" arrangement ordained by God. It is highly likely that most Christians think that Sodom was destroyed for the sin of Sodomy, being totally unaware that sodomy was the last in a catalog of sins God counted against them; "Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger and in his wrath." [Deut 29:23] Ezekiel tells us that the cities had many of the characteristics that are found throughout this land today, the good old U.S.A. I think it would be a good thing if the teachers and preachers of religious bodies, would quit giving shelter and aid to such practices, and wailing and moaning about "judgeing" and "discrimination" and started preaching "repentance" to the whole of society, for all of our sins. Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. God does not tolerate evil in a society, and whenever that society fails to acknowledge His right to rule, He gives them over to vile affections, which soon run rampant in their members. Look to our own society, and you will cease to wonder why it is "coming out of the closet." Homosexual Church Position: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13-14 These verses are found in the "Holiness Code" which emphasized to the Israelites that they were to be set apart to God. The context is prohibition of practices found in the nearby fertility cult of Molech. "Abomination" is a translation of the Hebrew word which specifically means idolatrous practices (not necessarily sexual). The condemnation here is a reference to the fertility worship which the Israelites were to shun. The seriousness of this idolatry in Hebrew eyes was compounded by the belief that "to lie with a man as with a woman" violated the dignity of the male sex. Women were property but men were the direct image of God. To treat a man the way a woman was treated was to reduce him to property and, thereby, to violate the image of God. The issue was idolatrous activity which failed to acknowledge God's creation. MY RESPONSE: It seems a little out of balance to me, when Abomination shows up 127 times in scripture; but idolatry shows up only 5, and idolatrous only once, to say that "abomination" means "idolatry." The truth being, all idolatry is an abomination to God, but not all abominations are idolatry. For example, Egyptians could not eat bread with Hebrews, because it was an abomination to the Egyptian, but it most certainly was not idolatry. [Gen 43:32] As well, Shepherds were an abomination to the Egyptians, but it was not idolatry. [Gen 46:34] "Not necessarily sexual" certainly does not mean the same thing as "Not sexual." There were times when the idolatrous service included the sexual aspect, but WITH OR WITHOUT the sexual aspect, Idolatry WAS FORBIDDEN. To add the element of Sex, and call it idolatry, and to say that "the context is prohibition of practices found in the nearby fertility cult of Molech," is to "play games" with contextual considerations. Let us examine the "context" of Lev 18, and see whether the Nearby fertility cult of Molech" is really the basis for this context: "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God." Molech was unknown to the Israelites while in Egypt. So far, it is not established as the basis for the context. It seems rather that God is establishing his own standard for conduct for his people, based on His presence in the camp. 5 "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD." He then begins a list of moral issues dealing with sexual expression among kinfolk, So far, having nothing to do with Molech, or cult prostitution: 6 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. Moving on to other members of the intimate family circle, but still no mention of Molech nor the cult prostitutes: 8 "The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness." Sibling sexual expression was forbidden, but Molech has nothing to do with the issue, nor the cult prostitution. It is prohibited in Israel: 9 "The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover." Grandchildren are next in consideration; still no Molech or cult prostitution: 10 "The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness." Half-sisters are listed, with no Molech, or cult prostitution: 11 "The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness." Aunts from both sides of the family, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 12 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman." Uncles, and their wives, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 14 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt." Daughter-in-law, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 15 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness." Sister-in-law, no Molech, no cult prostitution; 16 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. Near kinspeople of another woman, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 17 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. Setting Sisters against each other was forbidden, no Molech yet, nor cult prostitution: 18 "Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time." Jews were forbidden to have a woman during the monthly period, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 19 "Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness." Neighbor's wife off limits, no Molech, no cult prostitution in the First twenty verses: 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her." Finally, the purpose of the context, as supposed by the Homosexual Church 21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." That's IT? One verse prohibiting the offering of seed through fire to Molech is not the context, it is a prohibition included in a context of sexual prohibitions addressed to Israel, whose God walks among them. To claim that the prohibitions of Lev 18 "is prohibition of practices found in the nearby fertility cult of Molech," completely abandons the sense of scripture, to prove an unprovable position. The prohibition against Homosexuality is not originated in Leviticus, not does it originate with the cult of Molech. It began in the garden with God's mandate to leave father and mother and cleave to one's wife, and the two becoming one flesh. This is not what is accomplished with a homosexual relationship: The "man" of Gen 1:27 is "male and female" - "So God created MAN (Adawm)[120] in his own image; in the image of God created He him; male (zaw-kawr)[2145] and female (nek-ay-baw)[5347] created he them. "They," the male with his female, constitute the "man in the image of God," of the context; as well, the "man" cleaves to his "wife" to constitute the "one flesh" of Gen 2:24; equivalent to the "man" who is "them" of 1:27. God tells us how he came to design what he considered a "help meet" for man. The word translated "meet" is a word that means suitable to his needs. God shows that simple sexual gratification was not the circumstance under which he created the woman. Adam had already seen and named the animals, with their mates, all capable of reproducing themselves; "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." [Gen 2:18-24] God had already established the reason behind this arrangement, and there is no way a homosexual relationship meets this requirement for sexual expression - it can never bear fruit and multiply and replenish the earth: 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." [Gen 1:27-28] And He put his stamp of disapproval upon any other arrangement: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind (male)[2145], as with womankind (female) [802]: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion." [Lev 18:22-23] Let us re-examine the context to see if perhaps we have overlooked the context of Molech and the cult prostitution: 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 "For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;" What abominations? The sexual perversions listed at the first twenty verses of the chapter. No Idolatry in any of it, just family sexual perversions. 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 29 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. The keyword is "defiled," not "abominations." The fact that the practices were forbidden, makes it wrong, whether the thing practiced is proven to be bad of itself, or not. There was NO justification for the children of Israel to be practicing those forbidden behaviours, under any guise or pretense of "it's ONLY idolatry." Verse 22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind..." Verse 24 "DEFILE not yourselves in any of these things..." "In all these things the nations are DEFILED" "WHICH I CAST OUT before you..." Verse 25 "And the LAND IS DEFILED..." "THEREFORE I do visit the INIQUITY thereof upon it." "And the LAND ITSELF VOMMITETH OUT HER INHABITANTS." This whole context shows; 1st that God found the practices rampant in the land; 2nd He cast out the nations thereof BECAUSE OF SUCH PRACTICES. 3rd a follow-up study will show that God also cast out Israel from the same land for doing exactly the same things, and He DID NOT TOLERATE it in them, either. Why would He then tolerate it in his Saints today? Homosexual Church POSITION: 1Corinthians 6:9 and 1Timothy 1:10 - At issue are two words: malakee (found only in 1 Corinthians) and Arsenokeeteh, which is in both verses. Tradition assumes a homosexual meaning of the words. Actual study reveals that in its use there, malakee means "morally weak" or, perhaps, "immoral persons" - (The translation "effeminate" in the King James Version was an archaic one and, in any case, did not imply homosexuality in Greek--as it does not today.) Arsenokeeteh means to refer directly to cult prostitution, again. Such practices were common both in Corinth and Ephesus (where Timothy was). It clearly refers, in this use and later uses in other writings, to prostitutes who engaged in both homosexual and heterosexual cult practice. Neither of these words can possible be translated to mean "homosexual" or any similar distortion of their meaning. MY Response: Greek (arseen) = male, "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them MALE and female, [Mat 19:4] "But from the beginning of the creation God made them MALE and female." [Mark 10:6] "As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every MALE that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;" [Luke 2:23] "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men (Greek = males among males) working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." [Rom 1:27] Paul, in the Galatian letter, addresses an issue common to humanity, that of mingling with people who turn on our desires to a high degree. Paul says that if we have been baptized into Christ, we have put on Christ [Gal 3:27] Then Paul says we as males will not see females, but Sisters in Christ; and females will not see males, but Brothers in Christ. And Slaves will not see Masters, but Brethren; and Masters do not see Slaves, but Brethren. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." [Gal 3:28] The relationship between brethren certainly cannot be a male seeing a male with sexual lust in his heart. That defies description for perversity. Now consider another Greek word; (arsenokoitees) A man who lies with a male, a Sodomite - Paul says a male who lies with a male is deceived if he thinks to inherit the kingdom of God. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God." [I Cor 6:9-11] And Paul tells Timothy that the law prohibiting such practices was made expressly because such practices were going on, contrary to sound doctrine. "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that DEFILE THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; [I Tim 1:8-10] Homosexual Position: Romans 1:26-27 This is the only passage in Scripture which, apparently, talks about homosexual behaviour among women as well as men. The dangerous, traditional interpretation come from failure to relate it TO THE WHOLE CHAPTER (emphasis mine DoD) Paul talks about idolatrous people who put things or concerns before their devotion to God. As an example, he refers to fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome. The homosexual activity to which he refers is idolatrous. He implies that all of the cult worshippers engaged in it. (The interpretation that he is writing about homosexual behaviour in general would force this to say that all idolatrous people become homosexual- -an obviously spurious interpretation.) The final sentence referring to their just reward is a reference to the venereal disease which was epidemic among such cults. This specific reference to fertility cult worship cannot be construed to condemn homosexual behaviour in general. MY RESPONSE: Let us examine the "WHOLE CHAPTER" then, and look for this connection that you stipulate is there. I don't see it in the first seven verses: Rom 1:1-7 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." I don't see it in verses 8 thru 12: Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me." Still missing in verses 13 thru 15: Rom 1:13 "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, but was let hitherto, that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also." Paul finally enters a NEW CONTEXT in which he introduces the effect of the power of God, which he calls the Gospel: Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." And he introduces the antithesis to the Gospel, the wrath of God: 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" So far, Paul forgoes idolatry and its corrupting influences to focus on the real problem, EGO: 21 "Because that, when they knew God they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 PROFESSING THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, they became fools," Finally Paul mentions that which RESULTS from the sins of EGO; rather than being the CAUSE, it is the EFFECT. It is Idolatry: 23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. And when they continued to pursue their road to depravity, God gave them up: 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to DISHONOUR THEIR OWN BODIES BETWEEN THEMSELVES: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." This "dishonoring" with their bodies, between "men among men" is NOT cult prostitution. It is SOCIETAL ABOMINATION. This does NOT describe a Worship service gone awry, it describes a society become depraved. Rom 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men (GREEK; MEN AMONG MEN) working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." 28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who KNOWING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, but have pleasure in them that do them." If anyone makes any claim that the scriptures of God teach that homosexuality is "O.K." he is either new to the scriptures, or a liar. I shall challenge him on every front. The word of God condemns homosexuality, lying, stealing, murder, and a whole lot of other things. To deny such is to fail to understand anything at all about God or his teachings. And God condemns calling evil Good. [Isa 5:20] Paul said before he was a Christian, he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; "but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly, and in unbelief." All who are ignorant of the scriptures prior to this occasion need to seek God's mercy and grace, through Godly sorrow which works repentance, and obedience to the gospel of Christ. Henceforth, to continue in such sin, only makes turning to God that much harder, for the heart is hardened, not so much by the deed, as by the will to continue the deed. "But" say some, "I cannot quit being who I am." How does one "quit" being who one is? Paul says that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion." [I Cor 14;31-32] This remarkable statement was made with reference to those who would disrupt the worship service at Corinth with tongue speaking, interrupting each other, and causing general havoc. Paul gave them instruction about how to bring the situation, and the worship service, under control. "Your spirits are not in charge" is the message of his words. "You are." Remember, if you "have put on Christ" you are living to the spirit, not to the flesh, for the flesh is dead to sin, with the crucified Christ, but alive to God to bear fruit in the spirit. We have died to sin, therefore are no longer subject to the flesh and its requirements; it has become a matter of choice alone. We choose to serve God in the Spirit, or sin in the flesh. [Rom 6:2-18] God "condemned sin in the flesh" Paul says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the FLESH, but after the Spirit, for they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the spirit, the things of the spirit." [Rom 8:3-5] "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD." [Rom 8:6-8] "But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness." [Rom 8:9-10] "But if the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore brethren, we are debtors NOT to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. but if ye, through the spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God." [Rom 8:11-14] God looks at the deeds of the flesh second to the intent of the Spirit: "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." [Prov 16:2] Isaiah warns of a people who allow their own spirits to rule in covering up sin with greater sin. "Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:" [Isa 30:1] But God also reveals how to break out of the trap the flesh sets for our spirit; "For Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation, not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world worketh death." [II Cor 7:10] Godly sorrow is that sorrow which we express because we have discovered, or learned, that our actions or words are contrary to what God expects of his children. We have offended our God, and are sorry for it. This kind of sorrow will lead one to repent, or turn away from such behaviour. Worldly sorrow is a sorrow we feel when the constable knocks at the door and says "gottcha" when we are caught in violation of some law or other. We are sorry we have been caught, but not sorry for the deed; because we go right back to doing the deed, but this time, keep a better lookout for the cop. Godly sorrow reflects how we truly feel about our relationship with God. He knows when we are truly sorrowful for who and what we have become, and he weighs the spirit. [Pro 16:2] And "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." [Psa 34:18] Our prayer to God should be "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." [Psa 51;10] God will never turn away a humble contrite spirit seeking to kindle his mercy: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." [Psa 51;17] How do you learn to control your rebellious, flesh driven spirit? Get rid of that "cheerful heart" and be sorrowful of spirit: "A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken." [Prov 15:13] We are told that a man who rules his spirit is greater than a man who can take a city: "He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city." [Pro 16:32] Conversely, a man who does not control his spirit is like a city with no walls, therefore, having no defense in time of attack: "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." [Pro 25:28] We are at war with the flesh, and there is no discharge from this service - When it comes our time to die, we will not command the spirit to stay so we can have time to repent: "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it." [Ecc 8:8] Do the scriptures truly teach that Homosexuality is "alright?" Do you still think God will dwell in the temple that is devoted to such behaviour?

1.) The Bible condemns the shedding of innocent life: Few people would argue this point. The Bible clearly prohibits taking the life of an innocent person. It follows that if the developing baby is a “qualified” member of the human race, all of these scriptures apply: Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder. Deuteronomy 27:25 ‘Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person.’ Proverbs 6:16-17 16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 2.) The Bible teaches that Almighty God is responsible for human life. This is truly the principle behind every human conception. Job 33:4“The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Genesis 1:27 (NASB)27 “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” Humans are created in the image of God, they are therefore infinitely valuable. FROM EDEN TO YOU - UNINTERRUPTED LIFE Beginning with the union of gametes (Egg and Sperm) develops to a zygote, to a blastocyst, to an embryo, to a fetus, even to inclusion of eggs and sperm for a next generation. 3.) The Bible teaches that a child is a “person” whether born or unborn. The Bible consistently uses the same word for a “born” or “unborn” baby. This is because the divine Author of the Bible did not recognize a material difference between the two. In Scripture, there is not some special event when a “human being” becomes a “person”. Rather, he or she is a person from the beginning who goes through growth and development both inside and outside of the womb. In the New Testament the Greek word “brephos” is used to describe the unborn, newborns, and youth. In Luke 1:44, the word is used to mean unborn baby: “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” Then, in Luke 2:12, it means a newborn: “So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.” And in Luke 18:15, “brephos” refers to a young child: “And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them.” In the Old Testament the Hebrew word “yeled” is used in the same way. In Exodus 21:22 it means an unborn child, “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely…”. And yet, in other Old Testament usages, it means “youth” or even a teenager (Exodus 2:10, Ex. 2:8). As late as the 16th century in our own culture, “child” was the word used for both the born and unborn baby. Late in the game, we have developed a new word, “fetus”, to describe a developing baby (even this word is defined in some dictionaries as an “unborn human being”). Today, we often reserve the word “child” for a person already born. 4.) In the Old Testament God established laws that had those who took the life of an unborn child killed. Exodus 21:22,23 22 ¶ “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, Amos 1:13 13 Thus says the LORD, “For three transgressions of the sons of Ammon and for four I will not revoke its punishment, Because they ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead In order to enlarge their borders. 5.) According to the Bible, God knew you before you were born. FROM EDEN TO YOU - UNINTERRUPTED LIFE Beginning with the union of gametes (Egg and Sperm) develops to a zygote, to a blastocyst, to an embryo, to a fetus, even to inclusion of eggs and sperm for a next generation. Psalm 139 13-16 13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. David (the writer of Psalm 139) indicates that God knew who he was, and how long he would live, while he was still in his mothers womb. David also indicates that it is God, not simply some act of nature, that “formed,” and “wove” David’s physical body. With these concepts other Bible writers agree. Isaiah 44:2 2 Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, ‘Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44:24 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Isaiah agrees with David, God formed man in the womb, it is his actions that are responsible for the making of a child. Isaiah 49:1 1 ¶ Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. Isaiah 51:13 …you have forgotten the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth…. God is our Maker. While we are in the womb we have identity. Identity is proof of life. To Jeremiah God said: Jeremiah 1:5 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” This passage helps us to understand again the preciousness of human life. Man was not created as a piece of guesswork, there is a purpose in the creation of every human being. Man’s chief purpose is to glorify God by accomplishing His purposes. These passages teach us that while we are in the womb we have an identity and a purpose to fulfill. Let’s consider the case of Jesus for example. Was He recognized (considered alive) while in the womb? Do the Scriptures recognize life in the womb? Luke 1:31 31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.” Luke 1:41 41 “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” Philippians 2:3-8 (NASB) 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in a form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. In the womb Jesus had identity. God recognizes the unborn as a living child (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:41). When Elizabeth was pregnant, the unborn “babe” leaped in her womb. The Greek word translated “babe” is -{bref’-os}, it means: 1) an unborn child, embryo, a fetus 2) a new-born child, an infant, a babe This is the word that is used in Luke 1:41 to speak of Elizabeth’s child (John The Baptist) while he was in the womb, and also Jesus, after his birth in Luke 2:12, 16. Luke 2:12 (NASB) 12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” Luke 2:16 (NASB) 16 “So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.” Again, we find this word used in Luke 18:15, were the context is clearly talking about older children. Luke 18:15 15 ¶ And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them . . .” If it is wrong to kill an infant anytime after birth, it must also be wrong to kill him anytime before birth. Birth only changes an infant’s living quarters, the way it attains sustenance, and the way it breaths. The biological facts are these. Abortion kills something that has life. Leviticus 17:14 says: Leviticus 17:14 14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’ I posted this on a science board, and no scientist can come up with a valid rebuttal. Neither can any scientist duplicate this with any degree of success whatsoever. that is not saying the scientist cannot argue, it simply says his argument is futility personified.

2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt "The LOGOS Of GOD:" YOU are corrupting "The Logos Of God" when you contradict what has already told us about His plan. And I posted scriptural facts that told you "WORD" is nowhere found in Genesis 1:1-3. The first time it is used where God is the speaker, is in Num 11:23 Num 11:23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my (logos)word) shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Explain Jesus' thought process in His words - God is Spirit.(John 4:24) Spirit hath not flesh and bone(Luke 4:39-40) I am flesh and bone(Luke 24:39) True worshippers worship the Father.(John 4:23)

The bible says one thing, the TRANSLATORS say something different. Look to the GREEK of the verses. For example examine the GREEK of Eph 3:9: Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things }by Jesus Christ{: GNT Eph 3:9 kai fwtisai pantas tis ee` oikonomia tou musteeriou tou apokekrummenou apo twn aiwnwn en tw Thew tw ta panta ktisanti. Now compare Eph 3:9 GREEK with John 1:17 John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. GNT John 1:17 oti o` nomos dia Mwusews edothee ee` xaris kai ee` aleetheia dia Ieesou Xristou egeneto John 1:17 demonstrates what the Greek should look like to provide the translators with the phrase "By Jesus Christ."

The Logos WAS God- Jesus IS the image of God- Not the same affiliation. The logos changed, God did NOT. The logos became NOT-GOD; (Flesh) - God remained God. Jesus cannot be corrupted. The logos was corrupted. 2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt The Logos Of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. The Logos Of God is corrupted by those who do not follow what the scripture has to say about it. "The Logos Of God" is the title of a blueprint in the mind of God, that provides the means of "Christ living in you, in your flesh." And Paul explained it very well to the whole world. Then MAN came along and corrupted it by changing the order of the books, placing Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John at the front. John's gospel was the LAST book written,(96 a.d.); Mathew was the 5th book written. Galatians was the 2nd book, James was 1st. But Satan convinced the early teachers to begin teaching new converts with "The Life Of Christ" to begin, followed by the history of the growth of the church (Book of Acts); after which it didn't matter in what order they were taught. Many men were killed in the old testament for taking things out of order. God always insisted his people follow instructions in their correct order - Exo 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, 8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about. 12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it. 13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold. 14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them. 15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it. 2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart." 4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. 5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. 6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. 8 And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. 9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me? 10 So David would not remove the ark of the LORD unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite. 11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom, and all his household. "And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it. 13 For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order ." [I Chr 15:12-13] "And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD"[I Chron 23:31] "And they burn unto the LORD every morning and every evening burnt sacrifices and sweet incense: the shewbread also set they in order upon the pure table; and the candlestick of gold with the lamps thereof, to burn every evening: for we keep the charge of the LORD our God; but ye have forsaken him."[II Chr 13:11] Psalm 119:133 Order my steps in thy word:and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. (50 a.d.)1 Thes 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. (51 a.d.)2 Thes 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Paul considered it important - (54 a.d.)1 Cor 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come. (54 a.d.)I Cor 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order." GNT 1 Cor 14:40 ginesthw = verb imperative present middle (or pass dep) 3rd person singular. [NOTE: "Imperative" verb indicates it is NOT an option. It is demanded of Men by God. Even the resurrection has its own order - (54 a.d.)I Cor 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (55 a.d.)II Cor 2:17 "For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God:" Luke took pains to tell us (58 a.d.)Luke 1:1-3 "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus," (58 a.d.)Luke 1:8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, (58 a.d.)Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. Maintaining "order" was basic in the early church - (60 a.d.)Col 2:5 "For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding yourorder, and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ." (61 a.d.)Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Peter thought it necessary. (61 a.d.)Acts 11:4 "But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them..." (61 a.d.)Acts 18:23 And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples. Paul wrote to Titus (65 a.d.)Titus 1:5 "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" (66 a.d.)II Pet 3:15-17 "..even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest(turn or twist awry), as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." Everything about God's kingdom demand "order" and proper arrangement, including the reading of the books, in the order the Holy Spirit inspired them to be written. Now it's your turn. Please show me the verses that tell you you can take God's words out of Holy-Spirit-Inspired-Order, the very thing all of scripture warns against; Chronology of the New Testament is approximately along the lines of - DOD.......PHILLIP.SCHAFF...Cath.Encyclopedia 45...........James.......45......44-62 48...........Gal.........48......57 50...........I Thess.....50......52-53 51..........II THESS.....51......52-53 52..........MATHEW.......52......60-70 54..........I COR........54......57 55..........II COR.......55......57 56..........ROMANS.......56......58 58..........LUKE.........58......60-70 60..........COLOSSIANS...60......61-63 60..........EPHESIANS....60......61-63 60..........PHILEMON.....60......61-63 61..........PHILIPPIANS..61......61-63 61..........ACTS.........61......60-70 64/65.......I TIMOTHY....64......64-67 64/65.......TITUS........64......64-67 64/65.......I PETER......65......64-67 66/67.......II PETER.....66......64-67 67/68.......II TIMOTHY...67......64-67 69..........APOKALYPSE...69......68-69 70..........HEBREWS......70......70 70..........MARK.........70......60-70 75..........JUDE.........75......64-67 85/90.......I JOHN.............80-90 85/90.......II JOHN............80-90 85/90.......III JOHN...........80-90 96..........GOSPEL JOHN........80-90 When the early teachers were convinced by Satan to mix and match the order of the testament, the church began to imagine all manner of false doctrines, and to not only teach them, but began to kill those with whom they disagreed; so that by the time Trinity doctrine was being declared "Orthodoxy,"(451 a.d.) they had also turned church discipline over to the civil authority for execution of "Heretics" who denied their newly ordained "Orthodox" doctrine. And when that happened, (452 a.d.), God gave Man a sign of His displeasure, which none recognized enough to write of it. It was a 1000 year judgment of "Dark Ages" lasting till 1452, when the bible was first off the new invention, the printing press, and was given to the common Member, instead of to the CLERGY, and Men never looked back, but progressed to the point we sent a man to the Moon.

LOGIOS is translated "WORD" several places in scripture, but is translated "ORACLE(S)" OF GOD in much of its scriptural use, but mostly in the new testament. If the developers of doctrine are to be concistent, they cannot reference the word in Gen 1:1 to be logos, first, because it is not designated, nor is "word" the translation, but it is assumed by the fact Gen 1:1 states "In beginning, God said..." and then they attempt to tell us what word applies to the verb "SAID," even though "Said" is not found in the scripture until verse three. THUS are all of MAN"S doctrines developed. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Later We are told specifically, that "LOGOS" was NOT the standard by which MEN were tried, until after the giving of the law to Moses. So let us discover what SCRIPTURE use is developed for our understanding; "Logos" is used exclusively to reference a communication, whether it be translated "word" or "matter" or whatever, it is always communication of some kind under consideration. Paul tells us It is NEVER a reference to a person, other than John's revelation written in 69 a.d. telling us about the "new name" to be given to Jesus at some point in a time designated "FUTURE." Since John's gospel was not written until 96 a.d. it serves to demonstrate that the first Christians had no concept of a logos becoming a God/man, Jesus. And John doesn't say it was. That is a perfect example of scholars jumping into the development of the New Testament before it was completed, trying to influence the minds of new converts, to accept a doctrine that Jesus was pre-existant God in Spirit. Several verses are misapplied in support of this view, but it only works if there is no other explanation for those verses. John 17:5 comes to mind, which Trinitarian doctrine claims shows a pre-existant Jesus with the Father. But if the Greek is properly examined, it will show that the language is mistranslated to show a prehistoric event, "before the world was," when the reality is, it is no such thing. "Was" is not in the verse... For another example of the language look to Acts 10:17 and Acts 12:14 Acts 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood "before the gate," Acts 12:14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood "before the gate." When God speaks of coming events through prophecy, that prophecy is right there "before the world" in the same way Peter stood "Before the gate." It is not telling us "Peter stood, and afterward the gate stood." It is speaking of the proximity where peter stood in front of the gate through which he must pass. Some asked how "logos" is otherwise applied. Paul (That Paul who wrote the second New Testament book, Galations) tells us of a concept in the mind of God to which he gave the name "The Logos Of God," in which the concept of "Christ living in me" becomes reality in a personification in the saints who give their life over to Christ to direct. Rom 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Look for example at how Paul describes and defines "The Logos Of God" for us, some sixty years prior to John's writing of his gospel. In 48 a.d. Paul wrote: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20] And - "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." [Gal 4:4-7] Paul also said in that same letter - "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, [Gal 4:19] So Paul introduces a concept to the saints, of "Christ living in you;" but does not make any further defining remarks to the saints in Galatia. Then, in In 55 a.d. Paul, writing to the saints in Corinth, said this -"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" [II Cor 13:5] The reason I translate GREEK "en" to mean "Within" instead of Among, is because Christ lives WITHIN the saints who have conformed to his image. Paul begins to introduce some finer points of definition when in 60 a.d. he said he had "fully preached the Logos Of God" to the whole world, and explained what it is - "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill The Logos Of God ; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you , the hope of glory]:" [Col 1:23,25-27] We need to remember some words Paul brings together for us to consider: "Glory" and "hope" and "The Logos of God." We need to remember several things that are explained by Paul; 1) there was a mystery hidden from ages and generations, 2) it is now to be made manifest to the saints; and 3) there is glory somehow connected to this "soon to be manifested" mystery; and 4) Paul tells us this mystery has a name "The Logos Of God;" and 5) further, he tells us that this mystery, this manifested "logos of God" is "Christ in you" and yet further again, 6)it constitutes for us "the hope of glory." This is quite a mouthful. So, let's see if this theme is picked up for verification anywhere else in scripture. What we are looking for is some reference to "Christ in you" while you are "living" and "in your flesh," and further, we are looking for some indication that this is available for a very long time, that this is not just for the saints of Paul's day, to last only as long as he continues to preach it. So we look, and look some more, till in 69 a.d., we find a reference to "The logos of God;" but it seems to be in a far different theme or context; it is found in one of the writings of John, in a book called "apokolypse of John" more popularly referenced as "The Revelation of John." In this book, John speaks to us of a "new name" that Jesus is going to write upon his saints; "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." [Rev 3:12] The use of the Greek word "kainon" (translated new) tells us this is not a name that has been around since creation and before; nor has it previously been applied to Jesus, or to anyone else as a name; though it has been defined by Paul, at this time,(69 a.d.) for over thirty-three years. Then John tells us again "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The logos of God."[Rev 19:12-13] Paul expresses his exposition of a theme with - "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." [Gal 4:4-7] Finally, another Apostle picks up on the theme introduced and defined by Paul's writings. It is John's turn to talk about the saints in whom the spirit of Christ has been sent by God to dwell in the saints; (that "Logos Of God" which was introduced by Paul - "Christ living in me) - John speaks of it this way: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the logos was made flesh, and dwelt (within) us, and we beheld his (the one who received Christ) glory, the glory as of an only begotten of a Father, full of grace and truth." [John 1:11-14] John does not say "as many as received him, them he made sons of God." No, John says "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become(no article in the Greek) sons of God." John is telling us there is something required beyond believing, to qualify one for being a son of God. And that requirement has been being spelled out by Paul the Apostle since Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father, so many years ago. Why does John fail to say "We beheld the glory of the only begotten son?" Instead, he says "We beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten son." The GREEK w`s is what is called a "particle of comparison." Why would John be comparing the glory of Jesus to the glory of Jesus? The truth is, he is not. He is comparing The glory of the saint in whom The Logos Of GOD is personified, with the glory of the only begotten son of God dwelling in that saint. Jesus did not "become a man" in John 1:14. The only reason there is even a mention of Jesus at all in John's first chapter, is because in 96 a.d., John tied his gospel to the person of Christ and to "the logos of God" referenced in Rev 3:12 and in 19:12-13 with reference to the new name he is to be given, as "the logos of God." Jesus was not "the logos of God" in 30 a.d; He was not "The logos of God" in 33 a.d. when he was ascended, and he was not "the Logos of God" when John prophesied about his gift-name, as of 69 a.d. it was still a future event. In 96 a.d. John is speaking in 1:14 about an event in the life of a saint, a personification, and recalling his remarks he wrote in 69 a.d, about Jesus, here ties the two events together. But the personification of the logos of God takes place, according to Paul, everytime some saint or other, so lives his life that he can say "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20] When this saint aknowledges "Christ Jesus" in his life, the logos of God is personified in the life of that saint. And "we behold the glory as of the only begotten son of God" all over again, in that saint, through Christ living in him. Paul spent a lifetime convincing the saints about this subject of "Jesus Christ living in me" and said, "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," [Gal 4:19] So to recap what the Apostles have introduced and defined. Paul introduced "Christ in you;" Paul defined "Christ in you" and said it is "the hope of Glory." He also defined it as "The Logos Of God." Then John picked up on a new name which is to be given Jesus, and that new name is "The Logos of God;" Finally John brings together, in his prologue, the saints in whom can be said "Christ lives in you," and "hope" and "glory" just as Paul had already introduced and defined. And John did not change a thing Paul already said. Jesus was born, at which time he received a name, "Jesus," which served to identify him while he grew in wisdom and in stature, and in favour with God and men, and when he was fully grown, and had died, had been resurrected, and had ascended by 33 a.d., received a name, "The logos of God" between the time when it was published in 69 a.d., and 96 a.d. when John ties the personification in the saints, to Jesus, who received the name; but it was not who and what he was; it was a name received. Just as my grandson "Christian" was not "a Christian" until he accepted, obeyed, and became "a Christian." He was already "Christian" when he became "a Christian;" So also, Jesus was never "the logos of God" but was given the name after he successfully completed his mission and was extolled and made very high [Isa 52:13], and given a name above every name.[Phil 2:9-11][Eph 1:19-23] People have him already pre-existing as "the logos of God" and recognized as the personification of "the logos of God" at his birth when in fact, the terminology did not even exist until 69 a.d. When I look at a saint in whom Christ lives, I see "the logos of God" personified, and "behold the glory as of glory of an only begotten son of God." When John in his epistles [1st and 2nd John] speaks of "Jesus Christ came in flesh," he is not speaking of the birth of Jesus, he is speaking of "Christ living in me, in my flesh" spoken of by Paul - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."[Gal 2:20] There is no way you can find a place to separate Paul's life in the flesh after his conversion to Christ, from Jesus Christ living in Paul. Furthermore, John himself said "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:" I John 4:2) John did not use the article, and neither should we if we are going to understand exactly what John is saying. He is not speaking of Jesus own body of his flesh, for then he would have said "Jesus came in the flesh," and everybody would be in agreement. But John did not say that , he said "Jesus Christ came in flesh," which he did when he lived in Paul "in the flesh." And to show it is no mistake of language, John repeats in II John 7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." In neither verse does John use either the aorist tense or imperfect verbs, which would be necessary if he was speaking of the life of Jesus in his flesh; but John used a perfect active participle when he said - "... Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:" The significance of the "perfect active" is that Jesus has accomplished to the fullest, the fact of "com["-ing" in flesh" as he lives in the lives of the saints. It is not a reference to his having been born "in the flesh." This becomes significant when we consider Paul's words -"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."[Rom 5:10] The present participle in II Jn 7, which if you know anything about Greek participles, they are "-ing" words, and being present tense, means that in 85 - 90 a.d., John is saying Jesus is still com["-ing" in flesh.

How does one arrive at three days and three nights if decease took place on Friday night, and resurrection took place on Sunday Morning? (I know the answer. Do YOU?)

They need to read what James says about "the sin not unto death," then read about Enoch, and Noah, Daniel, and Job, and several other individuals in scripture who are called "Righteous," before they condemn all people to such a sad, sad doctrine contrived by men, of "Original sin." But then I know who originated it and I know why, but do not intend to go further with that theme until folks learn I intend them no slight or hurt. Only a hand up as they learn a new thing, hidden because they have been taught early in life that "all men are only evil." Enough of that. Welcome to my world and to this wonderful board.